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Author Topic: How'd THEY do it??  (Read 19640 times)

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sasscell

  • Guest
How'd THEY do it??
« on: July 18, 2007, 11:01:02 PM »

I gang, I'm Tracy.  I have been a member on and off for a couple of years, haven't posted in about a year or so, SO here goes.  I have been reading the "Contradictions in the Bible" thread.  It's corrupted, it's not, it has contradictions, it doesn't, etc. The argument really seems to be over what God intends the scriptures to be.  A mere guidebook?  A GPS?  Somewhere in between...an atlas maybe!!!  Anyway, the question that keeps comming up, and HAS for years for me, is WHAT DID PEOPLE DO BEFORE THE SCRIPTURES BECAME COMMONLY AVAILABLE?  I have 5 bibles in my home, many of you have many, many more.  This is a rather NEW development in Christianity.  MOST people, MOST CHRISTIANS through the ages have never even SEEN one.  Surely there have been Christians in ALL GENERATIONS.  What did they do, how did they learn?  Obviously, they maybe heard some, were taught of the Spirit.  Does that change the way I look at my bible??  No, I have more I am accountable for more (yikes)  Thoughts??? 
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YellowStone

  • Guest
Re: How'd THEY do it??
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2007, 11:25:37 PM »

Hi Tracy, I know exactly what you are saying, how did that know who had no Scriptures to read?

I will post a Scripture and then comment on it okay. :)

Rom 1:20  For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

This verse has always been golden to me for I could see God clearly. But it wasn't everything. Oh I have a few Bibles myself, I even have a Hebrew/Greek bible with a word for word rendering and numbered to Strongs Concorance which have a copy of too. I studied these long and hard, but I never felt closer to God than when I was out side, walking in all that He made.

Yet something was missing. I have always felt close to God and felt him close to me; however, when he bagan to open my eyes and ears to his Spirit, I began to see things in a very different light and to quote a brother, through the wonderment of child like enthusiasm.

Now here is the interesting part and one that is often over looked. It was the spirit that allowed me to see the truth of Scripture, not the Scripture that allowed me to see the truth of the Spirit. Many may gasp in shock at that statement, but truthfully, how could it be any other way. So in closing, I firmly believe that one does not need to have ready access to a Bible for God to impart His Spirit of Truth.

I hope this helps a little :)

Love in Christ,
Darren
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gmik

  • Guest
Re: How'd THEY do it??
« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2007, 12:19:03 AM »

Hi Tracy!!

Good point.  We are lost w/o all our tools and study guides :D

So many people just heard a bit or so of the gospel and that is all they had.  Maybe years later someone came thru the village again w/ some more news or details.  Letters were floating around but you had to be at the right place at right time.  So, I think the Spirit helped these folks- whose hearts wanted to know more.

Really, the average person, lets say who went to hear Paul preach, just went back home and lived their life.  We hear about the few in the bible or the early church fathers, but the vast majority, just went home!  I know that back then "christians" were known for their hospitality for the down and out.  Many died for their faith.  Most surely, most did not have anything written out to study.  I am talking about the gentiles out in the "world", not the jews who did have the written OT (at least the well to do).

Yes, to whom much is given, much is required.
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jER

  • Guest
Re: How'd THEY do it??
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2007, 12:30:45 AM »

Truly stated, Darren.

For, we are not in need that man teach us (truth), but rather, the comforter and "Holy Spirit" of God.

A friend in Christ - jER
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Dean Peterman

  • Guest
Re: How'd THEY do it??
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2007, 12:32:09 AM »

Dear Tracy and Darren,

I think you raise some good points.  I think the gospel is simple enought that we can be true followers of Christ even if we don't have a Bible.  It is our love for God and each other that make us true children of God.  I went off the deep end a little bit with this whole thing because I have seen the damage that can be done when we begin to undermine trust in the Bible.  For most people today the Bible is the guide they use to verify whether a particular teaching is compatible or in harmony with the teachings of Jesus.  This is why all of us spend time studyng it.  

In my experience when someone wants to bring a teaching that is contrary to the teachings of Jesus they know that they have to weaken your trust in the reliability of the Bible.  If they can convince you that the Bible is unreliable or corrupted it is easier for them to convince you of the truth of whatever doctrine they are preaching.  I do not want to offend anyone by naming specific groups so I will just say that most groups outside of Christendom consider the Bible to be unreliable and corrupted.  So when some guru or self proclaimed prophet tells you that Jesus did not really rise from the dead you have nothing to compare their teachings with if you think the Bible is corrupted and not worth using.  Many, if not most of these groups teach that Jesus is still dead and in the grave.  If you assert that the Bible does teach that Jesus was resurrected they will counter by saying that the Bible is corrupted so we should not use it to contradict their teachings.  This is very serious.  Millions have been deceived by these type of claims.  I unfortunately have to hear this type of false teaching virtually everyday.  So I am probably more sensitive to it then I should be.  There is a man that lives in a nearby city where I live that was once a christian.  He was convinced by these type of false teachers that the Bible is unreliable and corrupted.  He eventually became convinced that God did not exist and Jesus never really existed.  He now operates a ministry that is dedicated to destroying belief in God and faith in Jesus.  He is totally serious about all of this.  He travels the country debating christians and trying to convince them to renounce their belief in God.  I have several people who are close to me that have fallen for this type of thinking.  So when someone tells you that the Bible is corrupted you have to dig a little deeper to find out why they want you to believe this.  Sometimes they mean no harm but most of the time they have an agenda that goes beyond their lack of respect for the Bible.  

Sincerely,

Dean
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GODSown1

  • Guest
Re: How'd THEY do it??
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2007, 12:38:21 AM »

Hi Tracy, Welcum sister,
                               um! all I hav 2 say is "Amen 2 d@ Darren, Amen", GOD will draw U in HIS time HES appointted 2 U or whomeva, 'with or without' da Bible, looking 4ward 2 hearing more frm U sister, um! jus 2 add :) Im frm New Zealand, married with 3 children to my wife Tristan, got married January dis year But hav been 2gether 16yrz, ( have 4 to another, but r all growen up & living der lives ), GODBLESS! U & I knw HE is with U alwayZ!!.
                               muchLOVE!! Pera
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: How'd THEY do it??
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2007, 12:42:18 AM »

Hi Sasscell,

It's good to have you back with us  :)
 
This is something I have thought about, it does make you wonder.  
I think that there are ways that all generations have that they study and learn.  The disciples knew the OT scriptures, they learned it somehow.  Down through the centuries there have always been schools, so people did learn.  Now maybe there were less learned people than now, but I think there was always schools, so some would get educated.  But I think even the lower classes had ways they learned things, so that most could be educated to some degree.

So I believe that God used what means, that He caused to be available in each generation, to bring His truth to His elect.  Now I'm not saying that God is limited to using just the physical means, but I think He brought about the methods of studying and learnig and used them.  We know that the apostles taught the believers the truth, during that first generation after Christ.  I can see how God raised up educated men/women to teach all down through the centuries.

I also think that as God has increased the means by which we are able to share this truth tremendously, in a short period of time.  I really think we are being given great understanding now too and maybe more than other generations.  At least it seems like that to me.  

Dan 12:4  But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

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sasscell

  • Guest
Re: How'd THEY do it??
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2007, 01:47:24 AM »

Thanks to all whom a have responded thus far:  Pera, Kat, Gmik, Yellowstone, Jer and Dean!!  All posts have merit and wisdom.  I have SO much to write, but it's 11:30 and I'm tired so I'll keep it simple:  AM I CRAZY or am I right in saying that I feel burdended by the amount of scripture thrown around these days??  Let me clarify.  EVERYONE has a doctrine to peddle, ALL with scripture (I assume wrong) to back it.  Sometimes I just feel like I am overwhelmed.  Perhaps if I only knew "love your neighbor as thyself", I could just concentrate on that and do it.  EVERYONE has scripture to back their false doctrines, whether it's contradictions proving the bible can't be trusted or eternal torment, make no mistake, it's ALL SCRIPTURE!!  Sometimes I feel that it is a strategy of Satan to overwhelm us with scriptures, lulling us into complacincy, feeling overwhelmed, obeying none.  Thoughts??
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sasscell

  • Guest
Re: How'd THEY do it??
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2007, 01:54:53 AM »

You know what ?? I am so sorry something I said in my last post..."burdended by scripture" is totally wrong.  I should have said something like I know the scriptures and I can't live up to them... maybe that is the problem, I don't know where to begin,  maybe I wish I wasn't accountable for so much... Tracy
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Robin

  • Guest
Re: How'd THEY do it??
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2007, 02:24:33 AM »

I can understand being overwhelmed with scripture. There were actually times when reading the bible made things feel very dark. Those were also the times when God was working things out of me and it was creating a lot of anxiety.

I finally came to the conclusion that I couldn't trust myself. I was no match for the deceiver. Deceived people don't know they are deceived. I realized if I was deceived I wouldn't even know it. I had to put my trust in God. I prayed that he would protect me from deception and teach me truth. I know I am still deceived in some areas, but I have no idea what the deception is. I won't know until I learn more truth.

I struggle hard trying to learn. I have a complicated way of processing information. I see others understand things so quickly and it takes me a lot longer. I cry a lot when I read scripture. I know there is something there and I just can't see it. It can be very frustrating at times and quite a strain. All I can do is pray that God gives me understanding and wait on him. 
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YellowStone

  • Guest
Re: How'd THEY do it??
« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2007, 02:31:36 AM »

Hi Dean

Thanks for a well thought out and worded response. I could not agree more. Yet, I will offer this in support of what you said. During my years of "searching" for truth, I think I must have found every contradiction / fallacy ever conceived. I realized that the truth was not going to be found there (not because it wasn't, just that I couldn't) I then walked away from all my Bibles and study aids.

It was here that I learned a most fundamental truth; for when Christ said: "Look and you shall find" and "Ask and you shall recieve" he wasn't talking about physical eyes and ears, but rather our spiritual. It wasn't after I stopped trying to "find" the truth of God myself, that he slowly began revealing himself to me. The crazy thing was that I knew he had been there all along.

Another profound thing happened, the contradictions vanished, the words or rather their message stood out clearly, and the mixed up jigsaw puzzle of truth that I could not fatham, began falling neatly into place.

The Spirit and the Word must be in harmony, because they are one and the same.

Thanks for your post,

Love in Christ,
Darren
« Last Edit: July 19, 2007, 02:35:17 AM by YellowStone »
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YellowStone

  • Guest
Re: How'd THEY do it??
« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2007, 02:33:37 AM »

Truly stated, Darren.

For, we are not in need that man teach us (truth), but rather, the comforter and "Holy Spirit" of God.

A friend in Christ - jER

Thanks jER :)

A fellow friend in Christ,
Darren
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sasscell

  • Guest
Re: How'd THEY do it??
« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2007, 02:36:33 AM »

Oh Mg, you are so sweet and transparent.  I feel the same way somtimes, I see "something" in His Word, but it never pans out and I feel frustrated.  Maybe those who understand things easily aren't being entirely truthful??  I want truth in my heart.  Anyway, I feel you, seems like these days I fight for every morsel of truth, used to come so easy, but not now.  Indeed, perilous days ...
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Dean Peterman

  • Guest
Re: How'd THEY do it??
« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2007, 08:42:07 AM »

Dear Darren,

Thank you for your valuable insights.  I totally agree with everything you said. 

Sincerely,

Dean
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Chris R

  • Guest
Re: How'd THEY do it??
« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2007, 09:32:14 AM »

Hi,

Wow, i'm just not understanding the questions, How could there be "christians" before Christ?....Even the greatist of profits died "and did NOT receive the promise".

And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that THEY without US should not be made perfect. Hbr 11:39-40

Everything ever done was for US...so that we could SEE

 1Cr 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

Gods purpose and plan has not changed, there is a plan to call and choose those that will be Christs, and those chosen will make ALL perfect. How...through judgement. "Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world?" [1Cor 6:2]

We must have faith in the scriptures.

Chris R






I gang, I'm Tracy.  I have been a member on and off for a couple of years, haven't posted in about a year or so, SO here goes.  I have been reading the "Contradictions in the Bible" thread.  It's corrupted, it's not, it has contradictions, it doesn't, etc. The argument really seems to be over what God intends the scriptures to be.  A mere guidebook?  A GPS?  Somewhere in between...an atlas maybe!!!  Anyway, the question that keeps comming up, and HAS for years for me, is WHAT DID PEOPLE DO BEFORE THE SCRIPTURES BECAME COMMONLY AVAILABLE?  I have 5 bibles in my home, many of you have many, many more.  This is a rather NEW development in Christianity.  MOST people, MOST CHRISTIANS through the ages have never even SEEN one.  Surely there have been Christians in ALL GENERATIONS.  What did they do, how did they learn?  Obviously, they maybe heard some, were taught of the Spirit.  Does that change the way I look at my bible??  No, I have more I am accountable for more (yikes)  Thoughts??? 
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hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: How'd THEY do it??
« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2007, 10:24:22 AM »

This is an interesting topic, I can safely assume that the priests and scribes, etc. had a more extensive library of scripture than did the early church, and I can also safely assume that the Kennedy's, Hagee's, Robertson's, etc. have a more extensive library than do any of us, including Ray!

But what is the catalyst in understanding? God is. Unless He draws us and opens our hearts to His Word we could quote every verse by memory and still think as a base, carnal man. On the other hand, as Chris stated earlier we must trust the scriptures and any revelation that we may receive, even if it sounds reasonable and attractive must be verified by His Word or else it has no Light, just the appearance of light. (paraphrased from Isaiah 8:20).

Jesus was not ambiguous when He stated;

Mat 11:27  All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

If we are blessed to be chosen to hear His Words and through God given faith are able to begin to understand we certainly will be motivated to search scripture diligently and pray for wisdom and discernment. 

Deu 4:10  Especially the day that thou stoodest before the LORD thy God in Horeb, when the LORD said unto me, Gather me the people together and I will make them hear my words, that they may learn to fear me all the days that they shall live upon the earth and that they may teach their children.

Zec 13:9  And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as  silver is refined, and will try them as  gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

It is all of God, He has seen fit to give many of us unprecedented access to His Word through our present technology, all this was put in place before the foundation of the world to suit His plan and purpose for us. Trust in Him, listen to hear His voice in all things and be like the Bereans (Acts 17:11) as we work out our salvation (Phi 2:12).

His Peace to you,

Joe
« Last Edit: July 19, 2007, 10:26:05 AM by hillsbororiver »
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sasscell

  • Guest
Re: How'd THEY do it??
« Reply #16 on: July 19, 2007, 10:57:57 AM »

Chris, we aren't alking about Christians before CHrist, we're talking about Christians before the printing press ;)
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hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: How'd THEY do it??
« Reply #17 on: July 19, 2007, 11:03:05 AM »

God will get His Word to His chosen people of any generation and at any location, He thought all this through "before the foundation of the earth."

Peace,

Joe
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sasscell

  • Guest
Re: How'd THEY do it??
« Reply #18 on: July 19, 2007, 11:16:10 AM »

I get what many of you are saying.  The Spirit and the Word.  We need both, they witness of each other they are reciprocal.  And, we all know that God gives grace as needed.  I think about the Chinese Christians.  Stories about them passing around just a page of scripture, maybe just a few hand written verses, and yet they have the faith to give up their lives for Him.  A friend of mine once said that the scriptues are supernatural and alive, God could teach us everything we need from one verse.
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hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: How'd THEY do it??
« Reply #19 on: July 19, 2007, 11:21:24 AM »

Yes Kat!

Remember the fish and the loaves? There is more to that parable than physical food for a day.

His Peace to you,

Joe

 
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