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[Pax Vobiscum]

Ehrman has referred to himself at many times as a "Happy Agnostic."  Now it really depends on one's interpretation of agnosticism.

Most people equate agnostics as atheists.  Not so.

By the way, ask the next atheist you talk to if it is reasonable to not believe in something that does not exist!

My understanding of agnosticism is a person who realizes that we will never definitively find The Answer or The God in his or her lifetime.  They don't deny that God exists per se merely that God's existence cannot be proved to his or her satisfaction.  Think of it as a believer without faith!??!

From Professor Ehrman's writings, seminars, and interviews, he is a keen wit.  I would imagine that "Happy Agnostic" breaks the ice and allows room for a historical (as opposed to a theological) perspective.  If he were atheistic, it would be possible, yet doubtful that he could keep his chair at UNC or maintain any authenticity.

I encourage anyone to read him, just remember that he is a historian, not a commentator.

Craig, watch who you are defending -- I don't want to sully my hard-earned reputation!

Peace

[Redbird]

Dear Pax,

I like having a scholar such as yourself around.

Scholar comes from a Greek word meaning "leisure." To be a true scholar, a person must have time free from other work, in which to study.  The Greek word was later used to mean "discussion."  Talking with others about what one has studied is an important part of learning.

from my Childcraft dictionary
Lisa

[Kat]

Hi Joe,

Interesting that you would mention the tower of Babel.  The thought has crossed my mind recently that this world is getting to that point again.

Gen 11:5  But the LORD came down to see the city and the tower which the sons of men had built.
v. 6  And the LORD said, "Indeed the people are one and they all have one language, and this is what they begin to do; now nothing that they propose to do will be withheld from them.

Of course man was not getting ahead of God here, it was intended to happen that way.  So these things that happened in the OT is examples or a shadow of something to come.

1Co 10:11  And all these things happened to them as examples; and it is written for our warning on whom the ends of the world have come.

To me the world seems to have gapped the language barrier and is building the tower of Babel anew.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[DuluthGA]

Just to amend my suggestion to Tracy that it never hurts to ask the Lord to become one with His will and spirit... and I mentioned asking Him so daily.  [Because after all, that is "how THEY all did it", by Spirit.]  Well, I would like to sort of upgrade that idea a bit and back it up with a short section I've been reading in Manfred Haller's God's Goal:  Christ As All in All.  Re:  The Flesh:  [Emphasis mine]

I cannot escape the flesh by evading a problem and doing things my way, but only by taking up things which cost me dearly, by enduring circumstances which contradict my staunchest sentiments and judgments, and by clinging to fellowship with the brethren, whereby all profit, not I alone.  Only in this way do I learn the way of the Spirit:  when in each situation I entrust myself to Him, anticipating His solution, without going forth on my own.  If the solution is not from Him, I will inevitably continue to react in the flesh, my spiritual life turning in circles.

This spoke a lot to me as I hope it does you!

Pax, I'm very grateful for your scholarly self! 

Janice

[Dean Peterman]

Dear Pax,

Thanks for all your input.  I always learn something whenever I get into these discussions. 

Sincerely,

Dean

[Deborah-Leigh]

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/agnostic....for more details...


Agnosticism (from the Greek a, meaning "without" and gnosis, "knowledge", translating to unknowable) is the philosophical view that the truth value of certain claims — particularly theological claims regarding metaphysics, afterlife or the existence of God, god(s), or deities — is unknown or (possibly) inherently unknowable. Some agnostics take a stronger view that the concept of a deity is incoherent, thus meaningless and irrelevant to life. The term is used to describe those who are unconvinced or noncommittal about the existence of deities as well as about other matters of religion. Early Christian church leaders used the Greek word gnosis (knowledge) to describe "spiritual knowledge". "Agnostic" came from the union of it to the Greek / Latin prefix a, and was originally coined by Thomas Henry Huxley in 1869 to describe his philosophy. Agnosticism is not to be confused with religious views opposing the doctrine of gnosis and Gnosticism— these are religious concepts that are not generally related to agnosticism.

Agnostics claim either that it is not possible to have absolute or certain knowledge or, alternatively, that while certainty may be possible, they personally have no knowledge. Agnosticism in both cases involves some form of skepticism. Data collection services[1][2] often display the common use of the term, distinct from atheism in its lack of disputing the existence of deities.

Agnostics are normally listed alongside categories such as atheist and non-religious, although this may be misleading. For example prominent agnostics such as Aleksander Kwaśniewski and Michelle Bachelet have been notably Christian in their outlook. Qualifying agnosticismCritics of the term "agnostic" claim that there is nothing distinctive in being agnostic because even many theists do not claim to know God(s) exists -- only to believe it. Under this asserted distinction between the words "belief" and "knowledge," agnosticism has recently started suffering from terminological ambiguity. While critics maintain the distinction is not contrived; others reject the distinction as trifling. By contrast, compare:
"I believe God(s) exist(s)" means that "I know God(s) exist(s)".
"I believe God(s) exist(s)" can still mean "I don't know if God(s) exist(s)".
If this distinction is accepted, the term agnostic becomes orthogonal to theism without further qualifiers, and many qualifiers become contradictory unless the distinction is accepted. If this distinction is ultimately accepted by the larger public, the group formerly described by the term will again find themselves without a label, because the qualifiers provided would be inappropriate for their philosophy.

For me either you are not understanding which is a carnal mind condition that is not equipped to undersand and is not able to see or know the things of the Spirit. If  you are understanding the things that are discerned by the Spirit through the Spirit that gives knowledge, wisdom and comprehensive insight into the ways and purposes of God then your understanding comes not from being any class of Christian but from the Spirit of Christ Himself.

I would not believe or follow any teaching that comes from a carnal mind. God is not the author of confusion which for me is a fruit of carnality. So if a person says they are carnal and then produces many teachings....I would know not to take any in or to heart. I would not even waste a pinch of salt on it!

Peace to you

Arcturus

[Dean Peterman]

Dear Arcturus,

Thank you!  Your insightful and well worded post cuts to the heart of the issue.  You have expressed my thoughts exactly.  I wish I could have said it as eloquently as you did. 

Regarding agnostics.  I once read the book of an atheist who expressed the thought that there is no such thing as an agnostic when it comes to belief in God.  A theist is someone that believes in the existence of God.  An A-theist is someone that does not believe in the existence of God.  The only difference is that the one who calls himself an atheist claims he knows with a certainty that God does not exist.  Likewise, the agnostic DOES NOT BELIEVE that God exists.  However, their reasons are different.  They don't claim that they can prove that God does not exist as some atheists do BUT they do not believe in the existence of God.  The fact that they don't believe in the existence of God means they are atheists no matter how they try to define themselves or how hard they try to avoid the label. 

These are the words of an atheist not mine.  But I agree with them. 

Further, if someone does not believe that God exists they are detached from reality.  So, no matter how much information they have memorized they will always be confused. 

Arcturus, all of my words cannot match the power of the words God gave you to speak on this subject.  Thank you for standing up for the truth.

Sincerely,

Dean

[Deborah-Leigh]

To add Dean,

Ray teaches the following that has a bearing on this discussion as I see it.

http://bible-truths.com/lake15-B.html
People want to be their own demigod, which cannot be controlled by anything or any one. This is the one area were all humanity can shine.
 
People don’t approve of God’s way of doing things. They argue that if God is sovereign and operates as the Scriptures tell us, then it isn’t fair and it isn’t even morally right.
They say that for God to be in total control of us would be to treat us like robots. And that it would be evil for God to predetermine us to do evil before He allows good to be done in us. And so, as the world of Christendom does not approve of the God of Scripture, they create their own god in their own image—one that they themselves can control by the power of their own supernatural freedom of will. And because they cannot with a carnal mind love and obey God, and

"…because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall SEND THEM strong delusion, that they should believe a [the] LIE: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness" (II Thes. 2:10-12).

It follows as is carried elsewhere in the Forum on the Sinners Prayer Thread noted by Kat:

Ray says:
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4181.0.html ------

Dear Jim:
        Primarily, we must repent of our "carnal minds" which HATE God (I realize that most people do not believe that they ever hated God, but by their disobedience,they prove that they did),

Peace to you

Arcturus

[Dean Peterman]

Thanks again Arcturus.  I am so glad you decided to contribute to this post.  I knew you would have some words of wisdom for us.

Sincerely,

Dean

[Pax Vobiscum]

So, am I to understand that since a very learned man does not agree with my theology, that I should then question his integrity as a historian? 

That seems more akin to malice than wisdom.

Peace

[Deborah-Leigh]

Proverbs 15:10 There is severe discipline for him who forsakes God's way; and he who hates reproof will die physically, morally and spiritually. 12 A scorner has no love for one who rebukes him; neither will he go to the wise for counsel.

Proverbs 1:5 The wise also will hear and increase in learning, and the person of understanding will acquire skill and attain to sound counsel, so that he may be able to steer his course rightly.

Proverbs 9:8 Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate you; reprove a wise man, and he will love you.

Which is it Pax? (Rhetorical question! )

Peace to you

Arcturus 

[Dean Peterman]

Dear Pax,

I understand your perspective but I think you are understating the case.  Ehrman does not merely disagree with your theology. He thinks what you believe it totally false.  Do the below statements sound like a disagreement over theology.
*******************************************************************************
Sometimes Christian apologists say there are only three options to who Jesus was: a liar, a lunatic or the Lord," he tells a packed auditorium here at the University of North Carolina, where he chairs the department of religious studies. But there could be a fourth option --legend.

Ehrman slowly came to a horrifying realization: There was no real historical record. It was, he felt, all incense and myth, told by illiterate men

I just began to lose it," Ehrman says now, in a conversation that stretches from late afternoon into the evening.  It wasn't for lack of trying. But I just couldn't believe there was a God in charge of this mess.

He thinks that when you die, there are no Pearly Gates.   I think you just cease to exist, like the mosquito you swatted yesterday.
***********************************************************************************
Pax, my brother, Ehrman is an atheist, does not believe that Jesus ever existed and that the New Testament was written by illiterate men.  This is more than a dispute over theology.

Sincerely,

Dean
 

[Pax Vobiscum]

Ok OK OK OK!

Arcturus, I have no idea what point you are trying to make.

Dean, I can certainly learn from a person who does not share my theology.  For instance, Ray and I differ on some core issues, but I learn something from him each time I read one of his theses.  Actually, if our experience of God is individual, can anyone really share a theology?  Alas, that is another thread entirely.  As a historian of Ancient Christianity, my brother Bart Ehrman has taught me much.  He is as much my brother as you.  And even though you and I may have competing theologies, I would dare not say that I could not learn anything from you -- particularly if you were an expert in field.

I do not require that any of the authors I read share my rather unorthodox worldview.  I am adept at discernment and my God can certainly withstand a little scrutiny.  God doesn't need any help to handle agnostics, atheists or zealots.  To throw the historian out with the bath water is too narrow for me and I believe that I would be less of a child of the Almighty if I were to only learn from those who share my view on matters not at hand.

Let's call it a day, OK?

Peace

[rk12201960]

Hi guys,
My thoughts.
God does not need flesh to teach anyone. The flesh that had the right to teach is now spirit.

We learn in spirit. Do not put your trust in man or his ways. what about Ray? He is led by Gods spirit otherwise I wouldn't be here.

Its an idol.

Randy

[GODSown1]

Amen! Randy,
                I reckon so 2 GODBLESS!.
                 muchLOVE!! Pera

[Beloved]

Oh My.... here we go again ....REMEMBER there is no need for division if we are ONE in Ghrist.

OT
(Ecc 12:11 REV)  The words of the wise, are as goads, yea, as driven nails, their well-ordered sayings,-given from one shepherd.
(Ecc 12:12 REV)  And besides, from them, my son, be admonished,-Of making many books, there is no end, and, much study, is a weariness of the flesh.

NT
(2Ti 4:1 ALT)  Therefore, I strongly urge [you] before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, the One being about to be judging [the] living and [the] dead at His appearing and His kingdom.
(2Ti 4:2 ALT)  Preach the word! Be ready in season [and] out of season [fig., whether the time is favorable or not], convict, rebuke, [and] encourage, with all patience and teaching.
(2Ti 4:3 ALT)  For there will be a time when they themselves will not put up with sound teaching, _but_ according to their own lusts they will heap up teachers to themselves, itching in the ear [fig., craving to hear what they want to hear],
(2Ti 4:4 ALT)  and on the one hand they will turn away the ear from the truth, on the other hand they will be turned aside to myths.
(2Ti 4:5 ALT)  But _you_, be sober [or, clear-headed] in all [things]; endure hardship; do the work of an evangelist; completely fulfill your ministry.

Every thing that every man says, writes and does is only done... by the Will of God.......  many will be fooled by thier own stupidi words and actions and a few while here on earth will look back at their own lives and will be so thoroughly ashamed that they will ask for the burining coal to cleanse them.

Beloved 

May my new alias foever be Hot Lips

[Beloved]

All the Scriptures that were included in the cannon and all the verse/words that were later added or deleted later(by the many)  in translations were all done (by the Will of God)  to add to their own "delusion"

The study of church history is extremely laborious and to many people it can also be extremely boring. Many are not interested in the academics or the "who done it facts". I am like Pax who like to study and read this stuff and when I read it, I often sit in wonderment of the "facts".

On the other hand,  I do not care if history, the bathwater or even the tub are thrown out.  Studying science , medicine and yes even church history etc  is an academic and carnal exercise (Boy do I love to do it.). Sometimes I can get so caught up in it that I have to look at it as it is ....as form of mental masturbation.(I do not mean to offend...I mean this spirituallY)   

Remember :  One one thing is needful and Mary ( aka the lazarus sister) has chosen that good part.

Beloved

Bleoved

[DuluthGA]

Thank you Beloved, I really appreciated your post!  Thanks for that reminder that God has manipulated the formation of the canon per His will.  Yes, the related studies and academics have got to get done!  He gives us each our lot to perform!  God bless your theological endeavors.  And Pax's.

Double amen to Randy and Pera!

And Dean, remember you're in Ray's "country" here on this forum, and when you die, THERE ARE NO PEARLY GATES, YOU DO CEASE TO EXIST JUST LIKE A SQUASHED MOSQUITO!  I pray for your understanding in this.  I am rebounding your own words and not intending to sound harsh.  We all, quite simply, will sleep and rest in an unperceiving state until our resurrections.   

Janice

[Deborah-Leigh]

Pax
You say :Arcturus, I have no idea what point you are trying to make.

Pax....Pax...it was not MY POINT made it was God's point made. Here it is again!

Proverbs 15:10 There is severe discipline for him who forsakes God's way; and he who hates reproof will die physically, morally and spiritually. 12 A scorner has no love for one who rebukes him; neither will he go to the wise for counsel.

Proverbs 1:5 The wise also will hear and increase in learning, and the person of understanding will acquire skill and attain to sound counsel, so that he may be able to steer his course rightly.

Proverbs 9:8 Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate you; reprove a wise man, and he will love you.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Peace to you

Arcturus[/color]

[Dean Peterman]

Dear Pax,

I understand your point of view on this and so I agree that we bring this discussion to an end.  However, I want you to know one thing.  I am concerned about you.  I do not want you to end up losing your faith like Ehrman and so many others.  Always remember that Ehrman's ultimate conclusions are not correct.  I acknowledge he is a brilliant scholar but he is wrong in his final analysis of the information.  PLEASE, guard yourself from being led too far down that road of skepticism.   

A friend of mine made the statement below and I hope someday I can be as humble as him.
 
"I was an arrogant person who thought I knew all the answers to all the big questions in the world. Now I realize that I really know nothing. All I know is that Christ knew all the answers and that He has the answers for every single person who has ever existed and ever will exist. And that if we look to Him, it is Him alone who can solve our problems and give us what we really need, in every possible way.  I hope that God will work in my life in the ways that He knows is necessary, and that He will do the same for everyone else in every way that everybody else needs. And I hope that God will draw all souls in the world towards Jesus Christ, because it is only in Jesus that we can find the way."

Janice, I wanted to clarify something.  I understand that there is not an immortal soul.  I was making the point that Ehrman is making the claim that God does not exist and therefore when we die we are dead and gone FOREVER with no hope to be resurrected.  This is not a debate about differences in our theology.  Ehrman believes God does not exist, Jesus never existed and the Bible is a book of lies and falsehoods.  I don’t agree with this. 

Sincerely,

Dean