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hillsbororiver:
Hi Cindy,
I had to read this series multiple times before it really began to sink in, here is the opening part of the first of the "Free Will" papers;
The Lake of Fire - Part 15
Installment XV - Part A
The Myth of Free-Will Exposed
There was a time when I too was hoodwinked into believing that man has a "free will." I believed free will to be man’s ability to make choices, change his mind, learn from experiences, etc. And since it is a fact that man can indeed do these things, it seemed evident to me that man has free will. But then I learned that these are not the definition of free will at all.
Free will does not actually and literally mean that one can make choices, create, change his mind, or reformulate ideas and data, etc., but that those choices and thought processes must themselves be free thoughts and free choices. "Free will" is only true if our choices are also free. But free from what? Why, free from being forced upon us against our will, or free from being caused by anyone or anything except our OWN will. And so, yes, man can think, process data, make choices, change his choices, etc. But none of these activities are free from internal or external CAUSES.
That man has a will, there is no debate. It is the teaching that man himself determines his own will, FREELY, without anything causing his will or his choices to be what they are. The idea of free will or free moral agency is that man can by himself unaided by anything else, originate his own choices of his will.
But does man actually possess such a power? And if he does, where is the proof? Now for all who have no confidence in the Scriptures, let me say that there is absolutely no scientific proof that man has a "free will" or the ability to make "uncaused choices." If such a freedom of the will existed, it should be possible to demonstrate it. But there is no such scientific demonstration that man can formulate thoughts and actions to which absolutely no cause whatsoever can be attributed.
And for all who do have confidence in the Scriptures, let me say equally dogmatically that there is absolutely no Scriptural proof for man having a "free will" or the ability to make "uncaused choices." In every case Scripture shows that it is God Who is behind the scene of all circumstances that influence and cause a man to make the one and only choice possible under any given circumstance. This law of "cause and effect" is stated and demonstrated time and again in Scripture. Ignorance of these behind the scenes causes does not disprove the fact that they are the actual and literal cause of our choices
There are laws of science that men do not wish to carry over into his private and spiritual life. Why? Well, because he doesn’t like the ramifications of these laws. He does not want to admit that he is bound and controlled by laws. He wants to be "free"—free to be his own god, free to determine his own destiny, free to override the rule and dominance of God, free to rebel or free to obey, but freedom of the will at all cost.
I will admit that it is a real shock when we first come to understand that of ourselves we cannot make one "free" choice to do good. Something must cause that choice, but the carnal mind hates to be "caused" to do anything. "God gave all men free will," he shouts. God gave man no such thing. Free will is a phantom illusion that has deceived the whole world.
But how could most of the population of the entire world for the whole history of the world believe something as fundamental as "free will," if such a thing does not even exist? Well, that’s a fair question, and before I get into dozens and dozens of specific proofs that free will does not exist, let me just show you two very broad and Scriptural statements that would certainly be indicators that maybe what is popularly believed and taught is generally not true:
Enter ye in at the strait [narrow] gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leads to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait [narrow] is the gate, and narrow [cramped or difficult] is the way, which leads unto life, and few there be that find it [Gk: ‘are finding it’]" (Matt. 7:13-14).
"Where is the wise? Where is the Scribe? Where is the disputer [debater] of this world? Has not God made foolish [Gk: ‘stupid’] the wisdom of this world?" (I Cor. 1:20).
Notice that it is not the "foolishness" of this world that God says is stupid, but rather it is the "wisdom" of this world that is stupidity to God! And one of the most profound philosophical and theological pieces of wisdom that is universally agreed upon in this world is the belief that man possesses free will or free moral agency. Virtually everyone in all ages have believed this teaching of free will, and yet not one of them has ever seen it proved either Scientifically or Scripturally.
You can read the rest of it here; http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
Kat:
I have just finished the Bible study on ‘FREE WILL’ IS AN OXYMORON. It is really good and will give you a bit more to help your understanding on this.
Here is an excerpt from it.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5154.0.html -----
Now what we have to understand is what people call free will or what they dismiss as free will or what they feel confident constitutes free will, is not free will at all.
I mean I have people email me and they say, ‘Ray excuse me, we make our own choices, what do you mean we don’t have free will’? I say you didn’t read my papers at all did you.
I wave the banner for making choices, more than anybody. I say not only do we make choices, we make millions of choices. The average human being makes, at least, a couple of thousand specific choices every day, whether you know it are not. Thousands every day. I’m all for choices.
The carnal mind that hates God, that is not subject to His law, is perfectly capable of making choices. But that is not what free will is.
The more you break it down, you find out that’s not exactly what they mean. It’s their excuse, to make you think that you have free will. But in the final analysis, that’s not really what it is. It’s smoke and mirrors, magic tricks. You have to understand theology is a magician. It’s a fake, doing magic tricks with smoke and mirrors, and I don’t understand that. Some of those magicians make even be a little sincere. I think the older they get, the wiser they get, the more they know, the less sincere they are.
Now is free will, making a choice? Let’s look at the definition of choose.
Choose - To select from a number of possible alternatives (The American Heritage college Dictionary).
That’s what choose is. Where do you see free will in that? Where is it free?
You look at something, your brain says I can have this or that….how is that free? So you just select what you prefer, don’t forget that. We’ll learn what that word ‘free’ means, it’s not free at all. So what is choice? You select what you prefer!
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There is much more, it's a must read.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
Deborah-Leigh:
To add:
While we have billions of choices we can only make ONE CHOICE above all others. Can anyone have thier cake and eat it too? It is THAT one choice the God KNOWS we will make because God knows what our spiritually weak condition is. Most of us are in denial as to our weakness and for many the condition of our being naked before God is beyond comprehension.
Those who do not want to know how weak and naked they are, refuse to accept that we do NOT have FREE WILL. They do not want to think or know or experience their nakedness before the all mighty God. They prefer to think they are God and God is who they create Him to be in their own minds and imaginations. So they dress up in their self appointed piety and resist the truth.
What Ray teaches us about Free Will being a Myth, is a very profound, deep and rich subject that reveals the Sovereignty of our God.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
pylady:
Joe,
Thank you so much for directing me toward that particular one of Ray's writings. I have read almost all of Ray's articles, some more than once, and I agree with you that these studies most be read over and over to sink in. The idea that we have no free will just goes against everything we have previously been taught. The beast WANTS, DEMANDS free will!! May our Lord slay him with the power of His spirit! And may He help me to get this firmly planted in my mind and heart! :)
Kat,
I will definitely read "Free will is an oxymoron". Thank you so very much for transcribing these articles. Although I love listening to Ray in the audios because his personality shines in them, it is such a blessing to be able to read his teachings, and really study them. You are such a blessing to us for all the transcribing you've done. So a great big THANK YOU. ;D
Arcturus,
Yes, that is where I sometimes get tripped up, but hopefully and prayerfully I am understanding more clearly.
So here goes - and please correct me if I'm wrong (I know you will :D).
We make choices. All our choices have a cause (no uncaused choices). Therefore we have no FREE will.
God, behind the scenes (from our perspective) brings about the circumstances that cause us to make the choices that we make. Because He causes the circumstances, and because He knows our nature He knows exactly what choice we will make each and every time.
Here's what I need to get a grasp on: from OUR perspective we are making choices all the time, and from OUR perspective these choices are made freely. We would all think our choices and our will is free if He didn't reveal the truth to us through His spirit.
The truth is - and from GOD'S perspective - which of course is the only correct perspective - not only do we not have free will, but we really can only make one choice. Even the idea that we make choices is only from our perspective, since He has caused the circumstances by which we can only and must make a certain choice. Since the definition of choice would be chosing between two or more options, we cannot even really make a choice.
Even though it seems like I should feel uncomfortable with this idea, like I've been put in a box, I really find it quite liberating. Is this how we get rid of the beast in us. Just giving ourselves up to God. Not even wanting the choices, but wanting His choices for us?
To some it might sound unpleasant and controlling. But to me it sounds like the greatest love and mercy and guidance from the best of Fathers!
As I said if anything I've said is incorrect please correct me with Scriptures, please.
Thanks to all of you. I've been coming to the forum for awhile now. Don't post much, but even though you don't realize it, you've been very helpful to me, and I'm sure to others, in my spiritual growth.
May God continue to help us all grow together toward Him.
Cindy
DuluthGA:
Yep Cindy, I think you've got a handle on this concept ;) ... [and any correct me if I'm wrong]... we just have to remember to thrown in that God knew or fore-knew all our "choices" beforehand... predestined, foreordained...
We just can't forget that GOD IS GOD, ALL-MIGHTY and stuff like that! ;D
... and His plan...
Thanks Cindy, your thoughtful sharing has been a blessing to me,
Peace B with U now!
Janice
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