I have a question for you all

[seminole]

I agree with you on that! Stand steady friend!

[rvhill]

Passage 1 Corinthians 6:9:
9Do you not know that the unrighteous and the wrongdoers will not inherit or have any share in the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived (misled): neither the impure and immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor those who participate in homosexuality,
   
This list includes everyone. Everyone who ever lived is and will be guilty of more then one of these sins in their life time. The truth is in the Beatitudes

Love for Enemies
    43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor[h] and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Jesus practices this by dieing on the cross. There is no another person born of this world who is not his enemy. We are all Jesus' enemy. We may not wish to be, but we are. We are all of perdition.

[Harryfeat]

Rodger,

I agree, there is no way to "justify" homosexuality unless of course you are an Atheist, and would sooner spit on God's law than obey it.
But otherwise, I see no way of "justifying" it. Even then, though, I simply can not agree with the Atheist that wants to "justify" homosexuality-to me it's just wrong, and that's all there is to it. In fact, homosexuality to me, seems far worse than pre-merital sex (between a male and female)and even prostitution. It's un-natural, it is an "abomination". Is adultery considered an "abomination"? No, it is simply considered sin, but "abomination" is pretty strong language. Adultery, does not "change the natural use", homosexuality does.
I'm sorry but anybody who considers homosexuality to be in the same category of sin as adultery (between a male and female) is simply kidding themselves. Homosexuality is far worse. And Scripture will attest.

-Sorin

Hey Sorin,

Thank you for your post.  It caused me to start thinking more seriously about the relationship of sins.  Is one really worse than another.  Blasphemy seems to take the prize, but what about the others?  Growing up Catholic, the nuns taught us children that masterbation was a mortal sin, along with murder and not going to church on Sunday.  I could only imagine that having sex with another person would be so grievous a sin that I would go straight to hell.  I now believe that the babylonian concepts of mortal and venial sins as defined by my trusty old baltimore catechism are a crock.

Your point about scripture attesting to the validity of that kind of concept really threw me for a loop.  Abomination and Anathema are two of my all time favorite words from KJV.  Abomination is such a colorful, forceful and powerful word.  [Just thinking about the abominable snowman sent chills of horror in my youth]   That is probably why the translators of the KJV used the word abomination so often.  A search by e-sword of KJV show hits of 79 times in 69 verses.  Alas, even though I really like the word, I believe that the translators of scripture might have been over zealous in their use of this hypberbolic word.

Even so, for those of us who believe that "abomination" is God's own chosen word, it is interesting to see what is covered.  The obvious cite is Lev. for man lying with man.   Ward also covered very well the fact that adultery is labeled an abomination several times.   

Imagine my chagrin to find that my favorite breakfast of bacon and eggs today was an abomination.  And to think that every time I told a lie I had committed an abomination.  It seems that even things we don't think as being all that serious are called an abomination just as is murder.  I couldn't find any varying degrees of abomination indicated in the translations.  Is there some ranking of sins somewhere?  There is one quote from Jesus in Luke 16:15 where He states that things highly esteemed among men is an abomination to God.  That summed it all up for me.

The subject of homosexuality seems to be such an emotional topic.  Is there any reason to try to justify it?   Can you justify anal sex with your spouse?  What about oral sex? What about fornication of any kind?  Is there any justification for any of it?     I think the judgment belongs to God not us.  We are sexual beings and have urges that are necessary for the survival of the species.  It would seem to Paul that our best chance is to remain celibate for life.  [He must be the original Shaker ]  How far we go to create a sin is still very unsettling to me.

Speaking of shaking, thanks for shaking things up and giving us a chance to ponder some things.  I now have a few more questions to add to search for truth.

be blessed
feat

[Sorin]

Harryfeat, What's wrong with oral? 

I thought the marriage bed is "undefiled"?

God only said: " Thou shall not lay with mankind as with woman kind"

He said nothing about "oral". 

As for anal, not really my cup of tea.


-Sorin

[musicman]

You know, I often hear about sex being for the survival of the species.  Well what does sexual gratification accomplish?  How bout. . . survival of the individual?  That's right.  If one does not take care of one's sexual needs, he is neglecting his/her own health.  There are a few ways to accomplish this.  Either have sex with your spouse, your mistress, or with, you know, your. . . oh man I can't say it.  Anyway, isn't it a sin to neglect your health.  One does this by abstaining from all physical gratification?  They say prostate cancer is caused by such neglect.  So, I guess we can get married or be damned.  By the way, does anybody want to touch on the issue of contraceptives?  So much for survival of the species.   

[Harryfeat]

Harryfeat, What's wrong with oral? 

I thought the marriage bed is "undefiled"?

God only said: " Thou shall not lay with mankind as with woman kind"

He said nothing about "oral". 

As for anal, not really my cup of tea.


-Sorin

Hey Sorin,

That is exactly my point.  If I understand your posts correctly, you seem to think that homosexual sex acts are the gravest of all sex sins between consenting adults. However, there are many who believe oral and anal sex are sins and that the sex organs are to be used for procreation only.  Where do their beliefs come from?  Where did your take on same sex being worse than adultery come from?  Can we say that either is scriptural? 

Is eating pork a sin?  It seems to be against the law according to Lev.  What about lobster? It is also an abomination.  What do we take from the OT laws to bring forward today.  As far as I know, the ten commandments mention adultery and murder and false witness but is silent to same sex.  If same sex is so much worse why doesn't Christ mention it, or the ten commandments mention it. 

I was taught that almost all sex acts save certain marital ones are a sin.  Scripture, in particular the OT might bear most of that out, I don't know for sure.  Christ's message from the new testament rings very strongly with me.  His two commandments summarize the ten commandments into two categories.  Loving God with your whole heart  is the first category and the second deals with how you treat everyone else.  This gist of it all is that whatever you do to your neighbor that is harmful is against the ten commandments.  It includes lying cheating stealing adultery murder coveting goods and wives. 

The distinctive difference between fornication and adultery is that adultery hurts the third innocent part and breaks a vow to be faithful.  Fornication is usually between consenting folks so there is no third party hurt by the situation.  I view same sex acts as a type of fornication.  It really doesn't matter what I think though, I am just trying to give you a different perspective

What challenges me in my search is whether non adulterous sex acts that are  between consenting adults are truly sinful.  Yes I know what the OT "Jewish bible" translations say for the most part.  What part of Leviticus and the other OT books of laws do we bring forward?  How much of it is valid for today's world?  These are questions I am dealing with personally and do not advocate any denial of belief for anyone else.

Please don't get me wrong.  These are questions that come to me when people say "how do you justify"

I hope that my questions and search for truth perspectives aren't clouding the issues for anyone else.  I am just trying to explain it to you. Make no mistake. Please don't jump to conclusions like others have already done.  My basic philosophy is still-----when in doubt, it is probably a sin. 

Clear as mud huh


I hope this helps explain but I know my muddled mind and strange way of conveying ideas tends to confuse.

feat

[carol70]

Oh Rodger, now don't hold back - tell us how you REALLY feel! 

I did want to bring up one thing you said.  I'm assuming you didn't really mean to put this in there:

Those persons can love, support, forgive and mercify, those corrupted preists all they want.
But NOT I !!, I will pray for God's GRACE upon those priests and COMFORT for thier VICTIMS.

We are instructed by God to forgive as he forgives us.  And surely you haven't forgotten that it is only God's grace that keeps you from sins of homosexuality and other sexual abominations.  As Ray has taught us, had you lived under the exact same conditions as the people who commit these abominations, well, you would be committing the exact same sins.  Forget the equality or inequality of sins.  It's God's grace that determines the sins we commit in this world - nothing more.  Given that humbling, spiritual truth, how can we be so unforgiving of certain sins?  I am not in any way trying to justify or suggest we need to accept them.  But I AM saying we must forgive those who commit them, for God commands us to.

Mat 6:14  For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you;
Mat 6:15  but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

I think that's what troubles me the most about this thread - what I perceive to be a general lack of forgiveness and charity for those who struggle with this particular sin.  I could be wrong, but that's the feeling I get.

Love and peace,
Carol

[hillsbororiver]

It is apparent we have exhausted this topic and it is time to move on, let me leave you with this verse from James....

Jas 2:10  For whosoever shall keep the whole law and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe