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Author Topic: UNIVERSAL SALVATION  (Read 7672 times)

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Dean Peterman

  • Guest
UNIVERSAL SALVATION
« on: July 26, 2007, 09:38:09 PM »

Dear friends,

Now that I have finally seen the truth regarding hell and the immortal soul I intend to do a study on salvation.  I know Ray talks about this but I think my mind was so preoccupied with trying to understand the truth about hell and the immortal soul that I could not absorb a lot of the teaching on salvation.  Does anyone know where in his articles Rays discusses universal salvation?  Does anyone know the verses that are used for this?  Also, are the subject of free will and universal salvation connected?  Could God save everyone if we had free will? 

Sincerely,

Dean
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hillsbororiver

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Re: UNIVERSAL SALVATION
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2007, 10:02:20 PM »

Hi Dean,

Here is a bit from the John Hagee letter, it is a great start, a careful read of all the articles will lay texture and depth to this wonderful Truth!


http://bible-truths.com/hagee1.htm

MORE SCRIPTURAL PROOF FOR THE SALVATION OF ALL

After all of God's punishments and chastisements are meted out, all will be reconciled to God. Death will be abolished (I Cor. 15:26), and all will be vivified and given immortality never to be subject to pain, heartache, or death again. The Scriptures fully substantiate this grand truth.

"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have ALL men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is One God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. Who gave Himself a ransom for ALL to be testified in due time" (I Tim. 2:3-4).

"I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL [Gk. "the" all] men unto me" (John 12:32).

"That in the name of Jesus every knee should be bowing, celestial and terrestrial and subterranean, and every tongue should be acclaiming that Jesus Christ is Lord, for the glory of God, the Father" (Phil. 2:10-11).

Comment: It wouldn't be "to the glory of God" if it were a forced acclimation. Besides I Cor. 12:3 plainly says, " ... no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the holy spirit." To "acclaim" carries the connotation of an heartfelt, voluntary expression.

"For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified" (I Cor. 15:22).

Comment: "vivified" is from the Greek: Zoopoieo = LIVE-DO, "giving life beyond the reach of death, conferring immortality." The same "all" who are dying in Adam (which includes everyone) is the same "all" who are vivified in Christ (which of necessity includes everyone). Also notice that the "all" are vivified "in" Christ not "out" of Christ, and it's not, "all in Christ are vivified," but rather, "in Christ ... ALL are vivified." The order of words makes a giant difference.

"Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just award for all mankind for life's justifying. For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just" (Rom. 5:19).

Comment: This is not a difficult verse to understand. One offense brought condemnation on all mankind and all are constituted sinners. In the same manner ("thus also") through the obedience of the One [Christ] the same "many" are constituted just!

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus [sorry, no trinity here-or anywhere] who gave Himself a ransom for ALL to be testified in due time" (I Tim. 2:5-6).

"For in Him [Christ] the entire complement delights to dwell, and through Him to reconcile ALL to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Col. 1:20).

"If anyone's work shall be burned up, he will forfeit it, yet he shall be saved, yet thus, as through fire" (I Cor. 3:15).

" ... we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially [but not exclusively] believers. These things be charging and teaching" (I Tim. 4:11).

"For God does not dispatch His Son into the world that He should be judging the world, but that the world may be saved through Him" (John 3:17).

" ... God, Who saves us and calls us with a holy calling, not in accord with our acts, but in accord with His own purpose and the grace which is given to us in Christ Jesus before times eonian [before the world began-Authorized]" (II Tim. 1:9).

Comment: Man's salvation was assured before God ever created him. He knew all men would sin. That's why He provided a Saviour. We are saved by "grace" not by anything we do.

"No one can come to Me if ever the Father Who sends Me should not be drawing him. And I shall be raising him in the last day" (John 6:44).

Comment: It is not up to us or anyone to come to Christ. God does the choosing, calling, drawing, etc. " ... the kindness of God is leading you to repentance" (Rom. 2:4).

" ... having this same confidence, that He Who undertakes a good work among you, will be performing it until the day of Jesus Christ" (Phil. 1:6).

"Now to Him Who is ABLE to guard you from tripping, and to stand you flawless in sight of His glory ... " (Jude 24).

" ... if One died for the sake of all, consequently all died" (II Cor. 5:14).

Comment: God applies Christ's death and sacrifice to "all men." "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that He by the grace of God should taste death for EVERY man" (Heb. 2:9).

"And he [Christ] is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our sins only, but also for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" (I John 2:2).

Comment: Christ IS the propitiation for the sins of the whole world! How can you doubt it? How can you teach contrary to it? He isn't "potentially" the propitiation for the sins of the world. He IS the propitiation for the sins of the world.

"Yet all is of God, Who conciliates us to Himself through Christ, and is giving us the dispensation of the conciliation, how that God was in Christ, conciliating the world to Himself, not reckoning their offenses to them, and placing in us the word of the conciliation" (II Cor. 5:18-19).

Comment: This Scripture is clear. God through Christ's sacrifice (Christ's sacrifice carries a whole lot more weight than you ever give Him credit for) is conciliating the whole world to Himself. Do you know what that means? God is "at peace" with mankind. Yes, there are future chastisements and punishments, but the end result has already been accomplished. What the world must yet go through is for their good. But God already knows the end result. All will be saved! However, only "we" have been given this word of reconciliation (that is any of us "we" who believe it).

Notice that God is "not reckoning their offenses to them." Then who is God "reckoning offenses" to? It is to Jesus Christ His Son that He is reckoning the sins of the world. Ver. 21: "For He [God] hath made Him [Christ] to be SIN for us ... "

Look at this again. This is the Word of God. God is "NOT reckoning their [the whole world] offenses to them" (Ver. 19)! He is not doing that. But He IS making His Son Jesus Christ "to BE sin for us." How could God consign the vast majority of humanity to the eternal flames of torture in Hell if He no longer reckons that they have any sins? Of what value is Christ's sacrifice FOR them if they still have to pay their own penalty for all eternity? This verse is talking about the WHOLE WORLD. The sins of the WHOLE WORLD.

But what if all these sinners of the world reject Christ? Of course most people do reject Christ, but they won't always do so. God has not given them belief yet. Remember "every knee will bow and every tongue will acclaim ... to the Glory of God." Of course most don't will to believe God now, but they all will later. " ... for it is GOD Who is operating in you to WILL as well as to work for the sake of His delight" (Phil. 2:13).

"For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the savior of all men" (I Tim. 4:10).

Comment: God is not the "potential" or "possible" saviour of all men. He is the saviour of all men! I believe Him. I think you should too.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe




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Dean Peterman

  • Guest
Re: UNIVERSAL SALVATION
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2007, 10:31:13 PM »

Thank you Joe,

You gave me alot to read and study.  I greatly appreciate your kindness in sharing all of this with me.

Sincerely,

Dean
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: UNIVERSAL SALVATION
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2007, 11:48:49 PM »


Hi Dean,

I looked through the articles and found a few segments that should help in your study. 
Here are the links to the articles and the subheadings in the articles.

http://bible-truths.com/lazarus.html
-GOD IS OPERATING ALL

http://bible-truths.com/lake4.html
-THE THREE FESTIVALS AND THE SALVATION OF ALL

http://bible-truths.com/lake6.html
-THE SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN, SPECIALLY BELIEVERS

http://bible-truths.com/lake10.html
-SATAN’S ROLE IN SALVATION
-A FEW OF THE EVILS THAT GOD USES IN SAVING THE WORLD

http://bible-truths.com/lake12.html
-HOPE AND BLESSED ASSURANCE IN THE DAY OF JUDGMENT
-THE SAINTS SHALL JUDGE THE WORLD

http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html
-GOD WILL SAVE ALL OF HIS "POTS"

http://bible-truths.com/lake15-C.html
-JUDGED NOW OR JUDGED LATER

http://bible-truths.com/rapture.htm
-ALL PEOPLES ARE SAVED BY THE SAME FORMULA



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josh

  • Guest
Re: UNIVERSAL SALVATION
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2007, 12:12:21 AM »

Dean,

I'd like to make a suggestion to you... when I first stumbled on Bible-Truths, nearly two years ago now, I didn't realize that there was a forum that I could join and discuss the things that I was learning. I began close to the top of the page and began reading every article one by one... to tell you the truth, coming face to face with these new truths was a little earth shattering for me. Suddenly everything that I had based my life on seemed to be a lie.

I had spent the last several years pursuing a degree at a bible school, interning at several churches as well as being a full time youth pastor... and now, I felt the guilt and shame of knowing that my life and my ministry up until that point was all based on lies and my own laziness when it came to knowing God and His word.

I worked through the articles, slowly... sometimes taking a couple of weeks to go over just one, with a bible in hand... checking each verse to make sure I wasn't being duped.

I studied for nearly 9 months before I applied for membership here at the forum. Even after studying for nine months, I had plenty of questions... and I still do... I for one am glad that you are a member here and feel that you will not only benefit from your membership, but that your being here will also benefit the body of believers that fellowship here.

I say all that to say this... slow down, take your time to read through the articles on the front page of www.bible-truths.com. Unfortunately there are no short cuts to understanding the mysteries of God's plan for man. He will reveal the truth to you in His perfect timing.

May God grant you the patience and spiritual wisdom necessary to not only know His word, but also to love and accept it.

God's Peace.
Josh


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musicman

  • Guest
Re: UNIVERSAL SALVATION
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2007, 01:16:15 AM »

Yea, they pretty much covered it above.  Dean, I think all of Rays articals talk about salvation of all.  The question shouldn't be: "can God save everyone if we all had a free will" because only one of those is even possible. 

One last time.  It is impossible for anyone to have a free will.  Not even God can have a free will.  His acts in creation are caused by His will.  He did not create His own will.  I am caused by many outside influences to type this.  I did not freely choose to do it though. 

If you scratch your nose, why did you do it?  What? It was itching.  Well, why did you make your nose itch?  You didn't!!  But the cause of your choice to scratch your nose was because it itched.  Why does God choose to save us all?  Because it is His will which causes His choice to save us.  It's not free though man.  It just isn't.   
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jER

  • Guest
Re: UNIVERSAL SALVATION
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2007, 02:10:08 AM »

Dean,

I have never believed in limited atonement, although, I had attended the worldly church (extreme contention) for over twenty-five years. It has been a breath of fresh air to see others, like yourself, who seek the truth.

The Holy Spirit led me here, as well – "like a seal that needed to come to shore to rest from the vast sea of sharks!"

Rays teachings are an excellent place to start, and I concur with Josh.

Also, there are many who post on this forum with special gifts; given to them, as only the Lord can.

May the "Lord" bless you with a greater understanding of His Word.

- jER
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josh

  • Guest
Re: UNIVERSAL SALVATION
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2007, 05:43:32 AM »

Musicman,

You state:

One last time.  It is impossible for anyone to have a free will.  Not even God can have a free will.  His acts in creation are caused by His will.  He did not create His own will.   

Can you provide scriptural witness to support this statement?

God's Peace.
Josh
« Last Edit: July 27, 2007, 06:56:33 AM by In Medias Res »
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Dean Peterman

  • Guest
Re: UNIVERSAL SALVATION
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2007, 08:25:48 AM »

Dear friends,

Thank you for all of your helpful comments, suggestions and links for study.  I can see it is going to take time but I am sure it will be well worth the effort.  You are all very kind.  Thank you so much.

Sincerely,

Dean
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UncleBeau

  • Guest
Re: UNIVERSAL SALVATION
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2007, 11:06:32 AM »

Does anyone know where in his articles Rays discusses universal salvation? 

I would hope everywhere. Study this part very hard and very carefully Dean. This is the main theme of scripture.

1 John 4:14
And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.


oh, and:

In the end there can be only one.   -Sean Connery

your friend,

-Beau
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musicman

  • Guest
Re: UNIVERSAL SALVATION
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2007, 03:16:51 PM »

Musicman,

You state:

One last time.  It is impossible for anyone to have a free will.  Not even God can have a free will.  His acts in creation are caused by His will.  He did not create His own will.   

Can you provide scriptural witness to support this statement?

God's Peace.
Josh

I don't think that the scriptures meantion where God came from.  But however He became God, His will came with Him.  Ray talks about this in one of his papers.  God is a product of His own will, just as we are (the difference being that our wills constantly change).  Ray uses the silly age old question "can God make a rock so heavy that He cannot lift it"?  Well, if the rock represents freewill, then the answer is no.  God is what He is.  Maybe there's a scripture for this buried somewhere but remember, there are many scientific laws that are not mentioned in the bible. 
« Last Edit: July 28, 2007, 02:36:36 AM by musicman »
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vicsant

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Re: UNIVERSAL SALVATION
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2007, 06:40:40 AM »

Mat 25:46  And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

This verse clearly talks about everlasting punishment.  If ALL will be saved, then what does this verse mean?

Who will go away into everlasting punishment?

Vic
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Harryfeat

  • Guest
Re: UNIVERSAL SALVATION
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2007, 08:03:59 AM »

Hey Vicsant,

Welcome to the forum.

Try reading the following translations of that verse and see if you come up with a different perspective on this.



(CLV) And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

(KJV)  And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

(Rotherham) And, these, shall go away, into, age-abiding, correction, but, the righteous, into, age-abiding, life.




Please spend some time reading Ray's articles at Bible-Truths.  A lot of what he has to say in dispelling old unscriptural doctrines has a basis in faulty translations or just plain errors in translations from the original language of the scriptures.

be blessed
feat

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seminole

  • Guest
Re: UNIVERSAL SALVATION
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2007, 01:04:40 PM »

I don't get it. God's will is not God's will? Something else caused God 's will? That is too much for me to understand.
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Harryfeat

  • Guest
Re: UNIVERSAL SALVATION
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2007, 01:39:54 PM »

I agree Nole, I have just been sitting back waiting for clarification if it ever comes. ;D

feat
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: UNIVERSAL SALVATION
« Reply #15 on: August 02, 2007, 01:47:56 PM »

Hi Vic,

You are welcome to the discussions here at the forum.  But you will find that all of us here believe in the salvation of all.  If you would like to get a better understanding of what we believe, you can read the many articles at this link http://bible-truths.com/

Here are a few emails where that you will see the explanation for the verse you sited.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2192.0.html ------

Dear Reader:
    Of course there is "a translation error" in this verse.  Maybe the worst single verse translation in the entirety of the Bible.
    
    Here are the words for this verse from an Interlinear:
    
    "And shall go away these into a cutting-off agelasting [eonian]; the and just ones into life agelasting [eonian]." (Matt. 25:46).
    
    The words "everlasting" (used in the King James) and "eternal" are nowhere found in this verse of Scripture. The word translated thus is "aionios" both times in the Greek and it means "pertaining to an aion, and an aion is AN AGE, not eternity. The word "punishment" is also not found in this verse of Scripture. The word properly translated "punishment" is used with reference to sinners but ONE TIME ONLY in the entire New Testament.
    
    The word here comes from the root "to cut off" as in "pruning."  Now when we prune a tree, it is not for punishment, nor is it to harm to to kill the tree, but to enable it to PRODUCE MORE FRUIT.  The same is true of this verse. The wifked will be "pruned" -- more properly translated "chastening," which means correcting, teaching, etc. And this will be done "eonian" or "agelasting," not for eternity.  Likewise the reward of the saved is not "eternal life," as the word "eternal" is totally foreign to the Bible. It too is "eonian life" or "ageabiding life."
    
    We are promised rulership with Christ in His Kingdom, and Christ rules for the "eons" not for eternity (I Cor. 15:24-25).  Jesus reign only UNTIL He puts all rule and enemies under His feet. We also stop reigning at that time. Our "eonian reward" ends. Our life doesnot end, however, but it is not because we were promised "eternal" life, for we have been promised no such thing. But rather we continue to live after the reign because we have been given "immortality" (I Cor. 15:53), not "eternal" life.
    God be with you,
    Ray

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2332.0.html ------

It's a CROCK, Tommy.  No most intelligent universalists do NOT believe that
the first "eionios" in Matt. 25:46 means an age that ends while the second use
of "aionios" really does mean "eternal." That is nonsense, but these guys can't
argue against Universal Reconciliation honestly and Scripturally, and so
they lie.
 
NOWHERE is "eternal" life promised in the Scriptures, as there is no such word
in the Hebrew or Greek manuscripts (see my paper:  "Is EVERLASTING Scriptural?")
We are promised "eonian life," "age-abiding life," which lasts as long as the reward
of reigning with Christ in the Kingdom of God lasts--"UNTIL He [Jesus] has put all
enemies under His feet (I Cor. 15:24-25).  Do we then all DIE?  No. And why not, as
"eonian" life comes to an end with the end of the eons?  Because we have something
else that IS SCRIPTURAL--"immortality" which means death-less-ness (I Cor. 15:53).
 
And so, likewise, I can take apart all of his unscriptural nonsense and heresy by using
the Scriptures, not man-made foolishness.
God be with you,
Ray

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2598.0.html -----

Dear Ray:
    Words are not defined by "impressions."  Greek "aions" always had reference to a period of time, be it short or long. This is true from the earliest Greek writings. The early church fathers also knew this to be true.  It was in the year 540 that Justinian called for a church council. He wanted to establish that the life of the saint was to be "everlasting," and so concluded that it must be taught that the life of the doomed must also be "everlasting."  He knew that the Greek words aion and aionios did not have this meaning of "everlasting," so he attached the word "ENDLESS" to these words which he knew meant ages. And so, thus was born the unscriptural, damnable heresy of "ENDLESS AGES." Here we have absolute irrefutable proof that "aions" did not mean endless or would not have been necessary to attached the word "endless" to a word if it also meant endless. "Everlasting punishment," and "eternal life" are theological LIES that have no place in the Scriptures.
    
    God be with you,
    Ray
-----------------------------------------------------

I hope this will help your understanding  :)

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

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humblebob

  • Guest
Re: UNIVERSAL SALVATION
« Reply #16 on: August 03, 2007, 01:15:36 AM »

After reading a very well written explanation of Matthew 25.46 here in the forum, I have a question.

My question assumes the following:

---Christians are not promised "eternal" life in heaven, but are only promised "age-abiding" life, given that a proper translation of "aion" would be "age-abiding" not "eternal."

---"Age-abiding" life is not infinite in duration, but is of finite duration. 

---Christians are promised "immortality."

Given the above premises, my question is this: Is the immortality promised to Christians of infinite duration?  That is, if I possess immortality, will I live for an infinite, endless duration of time with God in Heaven?

And secondly, when Hebrews 13.8 says that Jesus is "the same, yesterday, today, and forever," the word "forever" is translated (at least in the NASB) from the Greek word "aion."  So I assume Hebrews 13.8 is an example where "aion" was correctly translated "forever," if "forever" means "an infinite duration of time into the future," as opposed to meaning "a finite age of time."

If "aion" in Hebrews 13.8 should be translated "age-abiding" (i.e., finite time), then Hebrews 13.8 would be telling us that Jesus Christ is the same,  "yesterday, today, and for some finite age of time to come." In this case, the writer would no longer be affirming the immutability of Christ for all future time. What then would be the point of this statement?

None of this is intended as an argument against universalism. But I'm trying to affirm that:

(1) Even if the word "aion" should always be translated "age-abiding" and refers to a limited, finite time period, the Christian nevertheless may await an infinite duration of time in Heaven with God, based on the promise of immortality, and

(2) There are in fact occasions where it is proper to translate "aion" as "forever" or whatever equivalent word would convey the idea of an infinite, unlimited duration of future time, as in Hebrews 13.8.





 

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musicman

  • Guest
Re: UNIVERSAL SALVATION
« Reply #17 on: August 03, 2007, 01:59:06 AM »

Not so Bob.  There is no useage of scripture where aion should imply forever.  Let's not forget that Christ is the God of the aions.  Once all enemies are under His feet (figuratively of course) He will turn the kingdom over to God The Father.  So Christ will not rule forever.  Besides, if God needed there to be a word meaning forever in the Hebrew and Greek, there would have been one.  But forever should never be implied.  I hope I'm not being overly dogmatic.
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humblebob

  • Guest
Re: UNIVERSAL SALVATION
« Reply #18 on: August 03, 2007, 02:00:27 AM »

Hi again, this is just a follow-up  to my previous post, in which I argued that in Hebrews 13.8 the word "aion" is legitimately translated to mean "an infinite duration of future time."

Otherwise, the writer of Hebrews might have been understood to say something liike:

"I have a very important point to make about Jesus. He is always the same. That is, He is reliable, He is trustworthy and dependable, He is immutable, What He was like yesterday, He will be like today. And you can depend on it that, what He is like today, He will also be like until the end of some coming finite period of time that will end at some point in the future.

But however long this age is, it is not literally forever, so, I'm not making any guarantees here about what Christ will be like, after this coming age in question ends. Whatever you may have learned elsewhere about Christ being forever unchanging, I am not affirming that point here. "

So the above is, I think, how we would have to read Hebrews 13.8 if we were to translate "aion" in this passage as literally referring to a finite duration

However, I hasten to add that, even if we translate "aion" as "everlasting" in Hebrews 13.8, I believe we may still affirm universalism, because we may still translate "aion" as a finite "age" in those passages where to do so would support universalism.     

But if I'm correct about Hebrews 13:8, then the Greek word "aion" can be translated either as "finite age" or as "forever (i.e., infinite duration)," depending on the context of the passage, or some other translation guideline. 

And I imagine things would be simpler had there been two different Greek words, one always meaning "a finite age" and the other always meaning "an infinite duration."  As it stands, it seems that we are forced with "aion" into making a decisiion in each case as to the proper translation.  Unless I am wrong about Hebrews 13.8, and "finite age" is always the right translation. (:)

 

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humblebob

  • Guest
Re: UNIVERSAL SALVATION
« Reply #19 on: August 03, 2007, 02:22:28 AM »

Not so Bob.  There is no useage of scripture where aion should imply forever.  Let's not forget that Christ is the God of the aions.  Once all enemies are under His feet (figuratively of course) He will turn the kingdom over to God The Father.  So Christ will not rule forever.  Besides, if God needed there to be a word meaning forever in the Hebrew and Greek, there would have been one.  But forever should never be implied.  I hope I'm not being overly dogmatic.

Hi and thanks for your well stated reply above. (I had not seen your above quote when I posted my most recent comments). I take your points to be quite fair and reasonable. But in assuming all the above points you make, I would still be left puzzled about the writer's intent in Hebrews 13.8.  What was he trying to affirm there of any substance, if the immutability of Christ was not his subject matter?

But I reaffirm that your thoughts on the question are well stated, and in either case I find no argument against the universalist posture.  Even if, as in my original position, we could translate "aion" in two different ways, we could continue to legitimately translate it as a finite age where to do so would support universalism. But I think your position, that "aion" should always be translated as "finite age," if true, offers a more coherent view of translating the original languages and of understanding Scripture.

All the best,

Humble-Bob

   
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