> General Discussions
UNIVERSAL SALVATION
Kat:
Hi Vic,
You are welcome to the discussions here at the forum. But you will find that all of us here believe in the salvation of all. If you would like to get a better understanding of what we believe, you can read the many articles at this link http://bible-truths.com/
Here are a few emails where that you will see the explanation for the verse you sited.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2192.0.html ------
Dear Reader:
Of course there is "a translation error" in this verse. Maybe the worst single verse translation in the entirety of the Bible.
Here are the words for this verse from an Interlinear:
"And shall go away these into a cutting-off agelasting [eonian]; the and just ones into life agelasting [eonian]." (Matt. 25:46).
The words "everlasting" (used in the King James) and "eternal" are nowhere found in this verse of Scripture. The word translated thus is "aionios" both times in the Greek and it means "pertaining to an aion, and an aion is AN AGE, not eternity. The word "punishment" is also not found in this verse of Scripture. The word properly translated "punishment" is used with reference to sinners but ONE TIME ONLY in the entire New Testament.
The word here comes from the root "to cut off" as in "pruning." Now when we prune a tree, it is not for punishment, nor is it to harm to to kill the tree, but to enable it to PRODUCE MORE FRUIT. The same is true of this verse. The wifked will be "pruned" -- more properly translated "chastening," which means correcting, teaching, etc. And this will be done "eonian" or "agelasting," not for eternity. Likewise the reward of the saved is not "eternal life," as the word "eternal" is totally foreign to the Bible. It too is "eonian life" or "ageabiding life."
We are promised rulership with Christ in His Kingdom, and Christ rules for the "eons" not for eternity (I Cor. 15:24-25). Jesus reign only UNTIL He puts all rule and enemies under His feet. We also stop reigning at that time. Our "eonian reward" ends. Our life doesnot end, however, but it is not because we were promised "eternal" life, for we have been promised no such thing. But rather we continue to live after the reign because we have been given "immortality" (I Cor. 15:53), not "eternal" life.
God be with you,
Ray
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2332.0.html ------
It's a CROCK, Tommy. No most intelligent universalists do NOT believe that
the first "eionios" in Matt. 25:46 means an age that ends while the second use
of "aionios" really does mean "eternal." That is nonsense, but these guys can't
argue against Universal Reconciliation honestly and Scripturally, and so
they lie.
NOWHERE is "eternal" life promised in the Scriptures, as there is no such word
in the Hebrew or Greek manuscripts (see my paper: "Is EVERLASTING Scriptural?")
We are promised "eonian life," "age-abiding life," which lasts as long as the reward
of reigning with Christ in the Kingdom of God lasts--"UNTIL He [Jesus] has put all
enemies under His feet (I Cor. 15:24-25). Do we then all DIE? No. And why not, as
"eonian" life comes to an end with the end of the eons? Because we have something
else that IS SCRIPTURAL--"immortality" which means death-less-ness (I Cor. 15:53).
And so, likewise, I can take apart all of his unscriptural nonsense and heresy by using
the Scriptures, not man-made foolishness.
God be with you,
Ray
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2598.0.html -----
Dear Ray:
Words are not defined by "impressions." Greek "aions" always had reference to a period of time, be it short or long. This is true from the earliest Greek writings. The early church fathers also knew this to be true. It was in the year 540 that Justinian called for a church council. He wanted to establish that the life of the saint was to be "everlasting," and so concluded that it must be taught that the life of the doomed must also be "everlasting." He knew that the Greek words aion and aionios did not have this meaning of "everlasting," so he attached the word "ENDLESS" to these words which he knew meant ages. And so, thus was born the unscriptural, damnable heresy of "ENDLESS AGES." Here we have absolute irrefutable proof that "aions" did not mean endless or would not have been necessary to attached the word "endless" to a word if it also meant endless. "Everlasting punishment," and "eternal life" are theological LIES that have no place in the Scriptures.
God be with you,
Ray
-----------------------------------------------------
I hope this will help your understanding :)
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
humblebob:
After reading a very well written explanation of Matthew 25.46 here in the forum, I have a question.
My question assumes the following:
---Christians are not promised "eternal" life in heaven, but are only promised "age-abiding" life, given that a proper translation of "aion" would be "age-abiding" not "eternal."
---"Age-abiding" life is not infinite in duration, but is of finite duration.
---Christians are promised "immortality."
Given the above premises, my question is this: Is the immortality promised to Christians of infinite duration? That is, if I possess immortality, will I live for an infinite, endless duration of time with God in Heaven?
And secondly, when Hebrews 13.8 says that Jesus is "the same, yesterday, today, and forever," the word "forever" is translated (at least in the NASB) from the Greek word "aion." So I assume Hebrews 13.8 is an example where "aion" was correctly translated "forever," if "forever" means "an infinite duration of time into the future," as opposed to meaning "a finite age of time."
If "aion" in Hebrews 13.8 should be translated "age-abiding" (i.e., finite time), then Hebrews 13.8 would be telling us that Jesus Christ is the same, "yesterday, today, and for some finite age of time to come." In this case, the writer would no longer be affirming the immutability of Christ for all future time. What then would be the point of this statement?
None of this is intended as an argument against universalism. But I'm trying to affirm that:
(1) Even if the word "aion" should always be translated "age-abiding" and refers to a limited, finite time period, the Christian nevertheless may await an infinite duration of time in Heaven with God, based on the promise of immortality, and
(2) There are in fact occasions where it is proper to translate "aion" as "forever" or whatever equivalent word would convey the idea of an infinite, unlimited duration of future time, as in Hebrews 13.8.
musicman:
Not so Bob. There is no useage of scripture where aion should imply forever. Let's not forget that Christ is the God of the aions. Once all enemies are under His feet (figuratively of course) He will turn the kingdom over to God The Father. So Christ will not rule forever. Besides, if God needed there to be a word meaning forever in the Hebrew and Greek, there would have been one. But forever should never be implied. I hope I'm not being overly dogmatic.
humblebob:
Hi again, this is just a follow-up to my previous post, in which I argued that in Hebrews 13.8 the word "aion" is legitimately translated to mean "an infinite duration of future time."
Otherwise, the writer of Hebrews might have been understood to say something liike:
"I have a very important point to make about Jesus. He is always the same. That is, He is reliable, He is trustworthy and dependable, He is immutable, What He was like yesterday, He will be like today. And you can depend on it that, what He is like today, He will also be like until the end of some coming finite period of time that will end at some point in the future.
But however long this age is, it is not literally forever, so, I'm not making any guarantees here about what Christ will be like, after this coming age in question ends. Whatever you may have learned elsewhere about Christ being forever unchanging, I am not affirming that point here. "
So the above is, I think, how we would have to read Hebrews 13.8 if we were to translate "aion" in this passage as literally referring to a finite duration.
However, I hasten to add that, even if we translate "aion" as "everlasting" in Hebrews 13.8, I believe we may still affirm universalism, because we may still translate "aion" as a finite "age" in those passages where to do so would support universalism.
But if I'm correct about Hebrews 13:8, then the Greek word "aion" can be translated either as "finite age" or as "forever (i.e., infinite duration)," depending on the context of the passage, or some other translation guideline.
And I imagine things would be simpler had there been two different Greek words, one always meaning "a finite age" and the other always meaning "an infinite duration." As it stands, it seems that we are forced with "aion" into making a decisiion in each case as to the proper translation. Unless I am wrong about Hebrews 13.8, and "finite age" is always the right translation. (:)
humblebob:
--- Quote from: musicman on August 02, 2007, 10:59:06 PM ---Not so Bob. There is no useage of scripture where aion should imply forever. Let's not forget that Christ is the God of the aions. Once all enemies are under His feet (figuratively of course) He will turn the kingdom over to God The Father. So Christ will not rule forever. Besides, if God needed there to be a word meaning forever in the Hebrew and Greek, there would have been one. But forever should never be implied. I hope I'm not being overly dogmatic.
--- End quote ---
Hi and thanks for your well stated reply above. (I had not seen your above quote when I posted my most recent comments). I take your points to be quite fair and reasonable. But in assuming all the above points you make, I would still be left puzzled about the writer's intent in Hebrews 13.8. What was he trying to affirm there of any substance, if the immutability of Christ was not his subject matter?
But I reaffirm that your thoughts on the question are well stated, and in either case I find no argument against the universalist posture. Even if, as in my original position, we could translate "aion" in two different ways, we could continue to legitimately translate it as a finite age where to do so would support universalism. But I think your position, that "aion" should always be translated as "finite age," if true, offers a more coherent view of translating the original languages and of understanding Scripture.
All the best,
Humble-Bob
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version