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Author Topic: UNIVERSAL SALVATION  (Read 7679 times)

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bobf

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Re: UNIVERSAL SALVATION
« Reply #20 on: August 03, 2007, 03:25:10 AM »

After reading a very well written explanation of Matthew 25.46 here in the forum, I have a question.

My question assumes the following:

---Christians are not promised "eternal" life in heaven, but are only promised "age-abiding" life, given that a proper translation of "aion" would be "age-abiding" not "eternal."

---"Age-abiding" life is not infinite in duration, but is of finite duration. 

I think its a mistake to think that aionion life is describing the duration of life in Christ and therefore must mean either [1] infinite or [2] finite duration.  That's a trap.

Christ defined aionion life like this: "And this is life aionion, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."'

That is not a duration of life, it is a kind of life.

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---Christians are promised "immortality."

Given the above premises, my question is this: Is the immortality promised to Christians of infinite duration?  That is, if I possess immortality, will I live for an infinite, endless duration of time with God in Heaven?

Immortality means we can not die, so yes we live forever and yes we will be with God always:

1 Thesselonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

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And secondly, when Hebrews 13.8 says that Jesus is "the same, yesterday, today, and forever," the word "forever" is translated (at least in the NASB) from the Greek word "aion."  So I assume Hebrews 13.8 is an example where "aion" was correctly translated "forever," if "forever" means "an infinite duration of time into the future," as opposed to meaning "a finite age of time."

No, it's not an example where "forever" would be a correct translation of the word aion.  The word aion in that verse is plural and means "ages".  Here are two literal translations:

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ yesterday and to-day the same, and to the ages;
Robert Young Literal Translation 1862, 1887, 1898 Info
 
Hebrews 13:8 - Jesus Christ [is] the same yesterday, and to-day, and to the ages [to come].
J.N.Darby Translation 1890 Info


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If "aion" in Hebrews 13.8 should be translated "age-abiding" (i.e., finite time), then Hebrews 13.8 would be telling us that Jesus Christ is the same,  "yesterday, today, and for some finite age of time to come." In this case, the writer would no longer be affirming the immutability of Christ for all future time. What then would be the point of this statement?

It should be translated "ages" not "age-abiding".

The verse as a whole IS affirming Christ's unchangingness.  Look, if I said to you "Christ is the same today as He was yesterday, and the same tommorow as He is today" wouldn't you gather that Christ never changes?  I think so - even though each time-word in the sentence is finite and the sentence deals with just three days.  You would not gather that on the day after tommorow, Christ changes.

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None of this is intended as an argument against universalism. But I'm trying to affirm that:

(1) Even if the word "aion" should always be translated "age-abiding" and refers to a limited, finite time period, the Christian nevertheless may await an infinite duration of time in Heaven with God, based on the promise of immortality, and

(2) There are in fact occasions where it is proper to translate "aion" as "forever" or whatever equivalent word would convey the idea of an infinite, unlimited duration of future time, as in Hebrews 13.8.

As far as I know the word aion should never be translated "age-abiding" or "forever".  It should be translated "age" or if plural "ages".  I know of no verse where it does not make perfect sense to tranlate aion as "age" or "ages".

It is the word aionion which is the adjective form of aion that is translated "age-abiding", "age-during", "eonion" and in the ET translations "eternal" or "everlasting".  English does not have adjective form of "age"  other than "eonian" so it becomes more difficult to translate than translating aion.

« Last Edit: August 03, 2007, 03:29:02 AM by bobf »
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humblebob

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Re: UNIVERSAL SALVATION
« Reply #21 on: August 03, 2007, 11:24:10 PM »


I think its a mistake to think that aionion life is describing the duration of life in Christ and therefore must mean either [1] infinite or [2] finite duration.  That's a trap.

Christ defined aionion life like this: "And this is life aionion, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."'

That is not a duration of life, it is a kind of life.



[/quote]

I appreciate your very informative discussion of the word "aion." Above I just quoted the first representative sample of your (tuition free!) educational guidance. :)

Over the years, in discussing theological questions, I've come to see increasingly how important it is to have a good grasp of Greek and Hebrew, and you informed response certainly underscores that point.

Best regards, Humble-Bob.

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sansmile

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Re: UNIVERSAL SALVATION
« Reply #22 on: August 05, 2007, 03:43:09 PM »

Hi all,
Just catching up on topics as i have been away (touring the highlands) for while.

I think if we can understand that when scripture talks of eternal (aeonian-age abiding) life, then this is when the elect will rule with Him on earth. For an age ........a length of time. Only the elect will have this time. After that age then time will no longer be needed because ALL will be reconciled back to the Father and Christ will hand all power back to Him.

(Col 1:20)  And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.


1Co 15:24)  Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

(1Co 15:25)  For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

(1Co 15:26)  The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.(1Co 15:27)  For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

(1Co 15:28)  And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God (the Father) may be all in all.


Peace  and it's great to be back

Sandie

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Walk in the Spirit

Cypress

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Re: UNIVERSAL SALVATION
« Reply #23 on: November 23, 2011, 07:04:02 PM »

Hey all. I'm sorry to dredge up such an old post, but I was searching the forum for additional information regarding aeonian life. I'm all over the place with my studies and reading so much information I need help :).

There is a lot of information regarding hell and "age enduring correction" etc. I understand aion, aeonian, aionios, etc. When it pertains to that. I understand that it does not mean eternal nor does it make sense in so many of the instances it is used (I even used esword last year and pulled up every instance where these words occur, so I've seen it myself)...

However, like some of the members above, I'm a little fuzzy as how it applies to the elect and aeonian life. I have read Ray's paper Is Everlasting Scriptural.

I see it as:

-a time of life, whereas others go to a time of correction
-a quality of life (as someone stated above)

Does Ray indicate in his paper that it is the time during which the elect reign with Christ?

I know immortality (deathlessness) does not equate eternality, but doesn't it still mean continuing on endlessly? Aren't ages finite? Or will the ages continue on?

God is of the ages, pertaining to the eons, correct? It says his spirit is "eternal"
(aionian). Does that just mean of the ages? If so, does that make it not eternal? (Ages having a beginning and end)

Do you just think I'm nuts? :)
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Elaine

mharrell08

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Re: UNIVERSAL SALVATION
« Reply #24 on: November 23, 2011, 08:18:13 PM »

Do you just think I'm nuts? :)

Yep...welcome to the club, we've been expecting you.  :D


Jesus tells us what eonian life is:

John 17:1-3   Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal [eonian] life to as many as You have given Him. And this is eternal [eonian] life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

So to 'know' the Father and Jesus is what eonian life is. So what does it mean to 'know' Jesus and/or The Father? First, let's see what it means to NOT know Them:

Matt 7:22-23  Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!

From Jesus own words, we see that to 'practice lawlessness' is to not know Jesus. What about knowing or NOT knowing the Father?

John 8:19  ...they said to Him, “Where is Your Father?” Jesus answered, “You know neither Me nor My Father. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also.”

Just a brief recap: If one practices lawlessness, that means they do not know Jesus. And to not know Jesus means to not know the Father.

Jesus says that eonian life IS to know Him. And to know Him means to know the Father. And obviously, to know them would be to NOT practice lawlessness (myth of free will, anyone?). And this is what eonian life is said to be.

Eonian life does not seem to have anything to do with a duration of time. And neither does eonian correction. They more or less describe a purpose, an action taking place...not a duration of the purpose they describe. But those are just my thoughts from reading the way Jesus talks about it.


Hope this helps,

Marques

P.S. I can't wait for Ray's new paper...do a search in the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John with the words 'know, me'. It's easy to forget that Jesus and the Father are so intertwined, so one. But to know one, you will know the other.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2012, 07:41:15 AM by mharrell08 »
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Cypress

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Re: UNIVERSAL SALVATION
« Reply #25 on: November 28, 2011, 05:07:33 PM »

Thank you. I can understand that. :) it's a whole different way of viewing things. Takes a while to decondition the mind.
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Elaine

gmik

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Re: UNIVERSAL SALVATION
« Reply #26 on: November 29, 2011, 05:58:15 PM »

Ray has a new paper coming????   Good news indeed!!! ;D
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Duane

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Re: UNIVERSAL SALVATION
« Reply #27 on: December 03, 2011, 01:14:57 AM »

THANK YOU so much Dean for asking your question!  I KNOW you will be blessed in your further study of this article-- and,  the ones suggested by KAT.  (read every one!)
HOWEVER, I don't think that YOU will be more BLESSED than ME!  :-)

Dean--remember that you are embarking on a long arduous journey AND you WILL be buffeted ALL THE WAY by friends, family et. al.  God never promised an easy road!  It took me a gut-twisting year and one half of study before the "veil was lifted" and all the teachings fell together in puzzle form.  (The moderators were essential for me--as they sacrificed a lot to answer my questions --that they patiently answered a  "million times" and now again with you!  BLESS them!!)

Also, after you have done your homework in "the basics" there is fun and fellowship (of a much lighter nature) under "friends of Ray" on faceook.  BUT--"home-work" first!   Duane
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