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Why does some people suffer on this earth more than others  and.....

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ez2u

  • Guest
Re: Suffering
« Reply #20 on: July 29, 2007, 04:00:59 AM »

Just a few words to say I have reded and reread these replies and want to thank the many people who answered my questions.  Now is the time to think about what has been said here.  There is one part that was not address that is the mind that many times looses its self from the constant suffering for many years.  I remember wurmbrandt talked about his solitary confinment for 3 years give or take.   not hearing a single woice.  He lost all couldn;t even remember a scripture verse from the Bible.  The one thing he said remain was Christ and wurmbrandt rejoice and danced in that.  That Jesus was with him.    My life is changing since I have been on this forum  the things I have been suffering and hitting my head against a brick wall for in rebellion, my mind is being to thin this is Gods will to do a good work in you.  That makes life more tolerable.  I had a dream in 1984 it was dark out and I was in a warm lighted building  many people were out side and I had to go outside they were going to stab me but I had to go,  So when I sent outside they took their knives and started digging hunks of flesh  out of my body and I was walking on  and stated how long will I have to suffer.  This has come about throught my life but I have been strengthen from this site thank you  peggy
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LittleBear

  • Guest
Re: Suffering
« Reply #21 on: July 29, 2007, 10:03:42 PM »

The love they will have for this little one, will show the glory of God, and will BE for the glory of God.

Ursula
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YellowStone

  • Guest
Re: Suffering
« Reply #22 on: July 29, 2007, 11:40:19 PM »

Hi Darren
I am not quite sure what you are asking regarding experieince.  Perhaps you already know this but ....pain occurs when the sensory portion of your body responds to a physical or emotional insult: pain is objective. Sufferering is how you percieve and experience the pain : suffering is subjective.

They do not correlate on a 1:1 basis (a slow but constant drop of water on your forehead can become torture. Therefor even constant saddness, anger etc can lead to suffering.

Hi Beloved I believe we are both saying the same thing: You write: "Sufferering is how you percieve and experience the pain : suffering is subjective."

I agree that suffering is subjective as is the experience itself. For example, I was in a horrible motorcycle accident, resulting head injuries including double vision, inability to link events to time/date, and substantial hearing loss. I also broke a few bones. The pain must have been enormous, yet I remember none of it, I do not even remember the accident. Some might say that I am suffering from double vision, but am not. I have double vision and I thank God that I am still alive to see at all.

Another way to look at it is two friends are accosted by a loud mouth, whom verbally abuses both. One totally ignores it, while the other crawls deeper into their shell. Same event, but two different "experiences;" I hope you can see where I am going with this. :)  It is how one reacts or feels that dictates the level of suffering.

Everything we encounter impacts us somehow. I kind of see these as a wave effect when they occur..for example you mentioned the story about the girlfriend being burned by her boyfriend.

Yes she was horribly hurt, but he will have to replay that event over and over in his mind ....for the rest of his life. If guilty he will have to answer legally.

His family and especially her family and friends have been emotionally traumatized. Those police and legal personnel who will be involved with this case , the medical personnel who cared for her and even those at the mortuary ...All were forced to live through the horror too.

Those who reported the story and all those those who have heard the story (including us on the forum.... both now and in the future)etc etc .....we all will have to resolve this worldly event.   

I agree with you totally. God allowed that to happen for a very definate reason, but I am not sure that many should suffer is the reason. This was the point I was trying to make.


On the plus side ...the issue of good and evil will have to come up and each person involved will have to deal with the reality of God. Some will turn to Him now for the answer (Glory to Him now).. some will not.... but....when all is revealed then all these things will make sense...(all the Glory to Him)

Rom 8:18
For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time [are] not worthy [to be compared] with the glory which shall be revealed in us.


I agree our existence will seem like a nanosecond, everything physical will be deminished. When Moses asked to see God's Glory... All that he could  expereinced was a manifestation of His Absolute Holiness.

It is mind boggling to even try and imagine spiritual exisitence... it will be unlike anything we can imagine.

We can only Praise God for His Son Jesus Chirst

Rom 5:2  By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the Glory of God

Beloved

Now this puts everything into perspective. What is suffering when ones heart, soul and mind is focused on the hope of the Glory of God?

Paul himself knew well. :)

2Cr 12:9   But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me.

Was Paul suffering or boasting? Was he saddened, demoralized and depressed? Not according to his next words.

2Cr 12:10   That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.
 
Are we not to feel the same way. Suffering should not be painful but joyous and this I feel is a very hard lesson for many to grasp.

Just my thoughts and many thanks for your response. :)

Love in Christ,
Darren
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ez2u

  • Guest
Re: Suffering
« Reply #23 on: July 30, 2007, 04:46:48 AM »

Thank you Beloved you have been very sightful. This is something i thought about when I was depressed one time   " the sky was raining diamonds and you thought it was a storm".  It goes with what has been said here about how you think about a situation.  I do feel this thing deep inside me an empting of myself and the things of this world to serve.  Not to be in poverty but materail items can weigh us down if we work with the poor.  It is hard for them, painful to see someone who is there to help them have so much and they want and need almost like an acking deep inside.  If God wants to bless my life with this honor He will make the way as for now I have been attending to my family and those the Lord brings into my life.  That has been alot with 6 children and a business we ran for 25 years. That has change now.  God Bless peggy   
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carol70

  • Guest
Re: Suffering
« Reply #24 on: July 30, 2007, 02:18:20 PM »

Was Paul suffering or boasting? Was he saddened, demoralized and depressed? Not according to his next words.

2Cr 12:10   That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.
 
Are we not to feel the same way. Suffering should not be painful but joyous and this I feel is a very hard lesson for many to grasp.

Once God reveals his truth I don't think it's the lesson that's hard to grasp, I think it's the reality of the suffering that's hard to endure.  The purging and burning away of our sins is not an easy process and I don't think we're supposed to think it is.  Even Jesus had a hard time dealing with what he knew he must endure.  When you're in the middle of the fire, it's hard to focus on the glory of the next age.  Suffering IS painful and I don't think there's any scripture that says it's not supposed to be.  Otherwise, we would not learn to be obedient.

Heb 5:7  For Jesus, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications with strong cryings and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard in that He feared,
Heb 5:8  though being a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered.


We are told that our discipline is not an easy process.  We are instructed to accept our discipline, to be patient and to endure.  Paul may have been delighted during his suffering and while perhaps we should be, I don't think we have to be!

Heb 12:1  Therefore since we also are surrounded with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight and the sin which so easily besets us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
Heb 12:2  looking to Jesus the Author and Finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and sat down at the right of the throne of God.
Heb 12:3  For consider Him who endured such contradiction of sinners against Himself, lest you be weary and faint in your minds.
Heb 12:4  You have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
Heb 12:5  And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons, "My son, despise not the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when you are rebuked by Him;
Heb 12:6  for whom the Lord loves He chastens, and He scourges every son whom He receives."
Heb 12:7  If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons, for what son is he whom the father does not chasten?
Heb 12:8  But if you are without chastisement, of which all are partakers, then you are ******** and not sons.
Heb 12:9  Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh who corrected us, and we gave them reverence. Shall we not much rather be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live?
Heb 12:10  For truly they chastened us for a few days according to their own pleasure, but He for our profit, that we might be partakers of His holiness.
Heb 12:11  Now chastening for the present does not seem to be joyous, but grievous. Nevertheless afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who are exercised by it.


Love and peace,
Carol

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YellowStone

  • Guest
Re: Suffering
« Reply #25 on: July 30, 2007, 07:06:55 PM »

Thanks for your response Carol, :)

Heb 12:11  Now chastening for the present does not seem to be joyous, but grievous. Nevertheless afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who are exercised by it.

This Scripture you quoted fits perfectly with the point I was endeavoring to make. :)

We are human, and as such, feel many emotions; some helpful and some hateful; yet as followers of Christ, we should care less of our own inflictions / sufferings and focus on the righteousness of the One who is exercising it.

Christ himself never for a second lost site of this, even in his darkest hour.

Mat 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou [wilt].

I have to believe that the only way Christ the man endured such pain and humiliation was because of his unwavering trust in his Father. Surely looking back he would count the suffering as nothing.

In short, should we not concentrate more on the promise of what is to come than on the "grievousness" of ones physical chastening; for all is for the benefit of our spiritual growth and should always be seen as such instead of some vendeta against us personally.

Does this make sense?

Love in Christ, Darren
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ez2u

  • Guest
Re: Suffering
« Reply #26 on: July 31, 2007, 06:56:04 AM »

darren and carol  there is a balance to everything  I found that we start off running and progress to a waiting upon the Lord a total giving up all to Him.I notice the really firt big change was when my first husband left me,  I was bruised, blind from an accident,I got my vision back, and broke with 3 children.  I knew I had to raise my voice in a sacrifical praise To God. I thanked Him for what He was going to do and had done in my life.  When my oldrest son fell 70 feet off a cliff and was in a coma 31/2 years in my home.  the songs and laugher left my heart  everyone deserted me except one friend and my littlest daughter,  My seond husband beat me neglected me, had me falsely arrested, he was in good with the local police, business pals. while I was preganant with his third child.  As I prayed the Lord said to me go and ask how you can be a better wife to him.  I did  things got worst than evenually the marriage got better after he almost die amd lost his business.   The Lord came to me  when my first son Jon was in the coma and said peggy I want you to give him back to me  No Lord this can not be you I said.  For 6 months I struggle then I said yes Lord and let my son go.I was at a stand still  next was grieving,  Grieving isn;t a step you skip over it is real. of God and necessary.  To be able to breath again. You come out a change person and God does that changing .some don't come out and die. My second son began to show signs of mentally illness about a year after the first one die.  It became full blown schizo-effective.  No one understood this for 4 years but me I struggle with his father,sister, my husband and police to get him the help he needed.   I knewJosh was ill,  because when I was born my father  became mentally ill.  That life was a nightmare. my childhood.  Josh as a child had a gifted mind brillant I gave  so much to each of these children to see them destroyed broke me and I began to wait on the Lord wait because I had to just to beable to help what was left of my son Joshua.  It wasn't about smiles and joy it was about obedience.  I learn to trust in relied on and obey Jesus the Christ.  Now I have in me the assurance that He Is.  After that I had breast cancer which was cured through the herbs of the field and common sense about our body and what we put into them to feed them.  The Lord had given to me what I needed before I found the lump.  It took me about 10 months to dissolve the lump and I have been cancer free 7 years.  More suffering came later but other stories.  my point is made. peggy
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carol70

  • Guest
Re: Suffering
« Reply #27 on: July 31, 2007, 11:15:06 AM »

My gosh Peggy, what a testimony!

But you summed up my point perfectly:

It wasn't about smiles and joy it was about obedience.

Darren, we agree that no one should view suffering as a vendetta against us or anything like that.  When I look back on the trials God has led me through, I can see all He's done and I am grateful that He is performing such a great work in my life.  But as I have not yet been perfectly transformed into the Lord's image, I still have a hard time focusing on the promises to come in the midst of a trial.  But I do know this is all for our spiritual growth and I do try my best to hold on to that instead of focusing on any suffering at hand.  I don't always succeed, but I do try. :)
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LittleBear

  • Guest
Re: Suffering
« Reply #28 on: July 31, 2007, 11:29:05 AM »

Peggy, you humble me with what you have been through. I have to agree with both of you Peggy and Carol. Smiles and laughter leave when one is in the midst of a trial, and it IS about obedience. Sometimes all you can do is try to get through the day.

When I read through the scriptures, there is a lot of encouragement, but the fact is suffering is unpleasant. It's supposed to be that way in order to develop the maturity that God wants to develop in us.

Love,

Ursula
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hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: Suffering
« Reply #29 on: July 31, 2007, 01:29:24 PM »

This has been an incredibly edifying topic and thread with much wisdom, compassion and honest straight from the heart posts.

It is not easy to endure these things, I think we all can agree on this but we also must ask ourselves it is better to experience this chastisement now or in the next age?

Looking at other people's lives (where the grass sometimes really is greener) the question may arise "why do they have it so good?" Perhaps in this snapshot in time they do but what about later, even in this life? A car wreck, a fire, a storm or a hidden medical condition can turn everything upside down real quick, what then? Do we exult in their pain or do we provide words of comfort and compassion that only real life experience can provide. I know from personal experience that hearing this "I know how you feel" statement carries much more weight when you really do know how someone feels by having experienced the same type of adversity.

Could it be that some of us are being prepared to have the ability to provide this empathy to those who will truly have a chastisement in the next age, or to be a light to His glory even in this life? Are these trials and tribulations performing a dual action, purifying the spirit of the recipient as it prepares them for a much higher calling than can be really appreciated at this time?

Here is a portion of Lake of Fire Part III that speaks of the trials and tribulations that must be dealt with if we are to grow spiritually;
 

Was it just Paul that God singled out to endure such hardships and trials? No, we too must partake of the same:

"Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that WE [Christians, followers of Christ] MUST through MUCH TRIBULATION [Greek: thlipsis--affliction, troubles, burdens, persecution, anguish] enter into the kingdom of God" (Acts 14:22).

Does your pastor teach that you must go through such things if you are to be a follower of Jesus Christ and rule with Him in the Kingdom of God? Or does he teach that if you are going through just such things that you probably need to get your life in order and repent because you obviously have many, many sins in your life that are bringing on all these troubles and therefore, you are not being blessed of the Lord? Their prosperity gospel of worldliness and gross materialism is a travesty of the gospel of Jesus Christ! I hear this prosperity gospel of worldliness and materialism every time I turn the TV on. But what do the Scriptures say:

Before I continue this train of thought, let me interject that although we are to go through extreme hardship, persecution, and tribulations, God nonetheless, strengthens us so that we can endure these things. It is not God’s purpose to discourage us. We have this promise from God:

"There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, Who will not suffer you to be tempted above that you are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape [Gk: ‘sequel’] that you may be able to bear it" (I Cor. 10:13).

I'll let you check all the many Scriptures of comfort that God gives us even while we are undergoing all our trials and sufferings. Here’s one more good one, however:

"Blessed [Gk: HAPPY] is the man that endures temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the CROWN OF LIFE, which the Lord has promised to them that love Him" (James 1:12).

It is most important that we consider, however, some of the many Scriptures that relate to our suffering, afflictions, and persecutions. This is necessary if we are to ever acquire a deep spiritual understanding of God’s judgment on the world in the lake of fire and second death. As we go through these many Scriptures, be aware of the fact that we are not going through all these things as punishment. God is not punishing us, He is chastening us, and there is a BIG difference.

"And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we SUFFER with Him, that we may be also glorified together" (Rom. 8:17).

"That no man should be moved by these AFFLICTIONS: for yourselves know that we are APPOINTED thereunto" (I Thes. 3:3).

Paul suffered much to get the gospel to the Thessalonians, "... Suffering ... being outraged ... a vast struggle ... [why?] ... We have been TESTED by God to be entrusted with the gospel ... God, Who is TESTING our hearts" (I Thes. 2:1-4, Concordant Literal New Testament).

Then he tells them that they too are "appointed" to such like sufferings and afflictions. Paul praises the faith and endurance of the Thessalonians because of: "... all your PERSECUTIONS and the AFFLICTIONS with which you are bearing ... which you are SUFFERING ... you who are being AFFLICTED ..." (I Thes. 1:5-7).

Now then, was this because the Thessalonians lived in a bad part of town, or bad part of the world, or that they lived at a bad time in history? Or does God bring these things upon all who would follow Christ in all ages?

"Yea, and ALL [in every era] that will live godly in Christ Jesus SHALL SUFFER PERSECUTION" (II Tim. 3:12).

But aren’t all these persecutions and afflictions at the hands of evil men rather than God? For sure wicked men commit many wicked deeds against the true followers of Jesus Christ, but Who is ultimately responsible for ALL things, including the tribulations and persecutions on believers? It is, of course, GOD

"Who works ALL things after the counsel of His Own WILL" (Eph. 1:11).

"So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in ALL YOUR PERSECUTIONS AND TRIBULATIONS that ye endure; Which is a manifest token [display] of [of WHAT?] ... OF the RIGHTEOUS JUDGMENT [Gk: ‘just judging’] OF GOD!"

And for what grand purpose?

"... that ye may be counted WORTHY OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD, for which ye also SUFFER" (2 Thes. 1:4-5).

Just how much are we expected to give up and suffer for Christ in order to be worthy?

"And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than Me is NOT WORTHY of Me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than Me is NOT WORTHY of Me. And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after Me, IS NOT WORTHY OF ME" (Matt. 10:26-28).

What does God consider a "reasonable" sacrifice to become members of the Family and Kingdom of God?

"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your BODIES A LIVING SACRIFICE, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service" (Rom. 12:1).

Make no mistake about it; if you will follow Jesus Christ, you will experience many of the hardships spoken of in these Scriptures. I am not saying that it is necessary to teach youngsters in Sunday School these deeper truths of God, but if we adults are to ever go on to maturity in Christ, it’s time to get our heads out of the sand!

The good news is that if we have a volunteering heart and accept the judgments of God on our lives now, we will be sure to avoid the harsher judgment on the whole world reserved for "that day."

"For if we would JUDGE [Gk: diakrino=THROUGH JUDGE, separate thoroughly, to withdraw, discern, judge] OURSELVES [members of the called-out House of God], we should not be judged [Gk: krino=judge, set right, decide, to try, condemn, punish]. But when we are judged [the same Greek word krino as used above with reference to judging the wicked world] we are CHASTENED of the Lord, that we should not be condemned [Gk: katakrino, an adverse sentence] with the world" (I Cor. 11:32).

Pay close attention to the three Greek words, diakrino, krino, and katakrino, used in this verse.

There is so much contained in this verse. There is a judgment now on God’s saints. We are judged by being "chastened of the Lord." What does that mean? "Chastened" is from the Greek word paideuo and here is what it means: "to train up a child, i.e. educate, or (by impl.) discipline (by punishment): -- chasten (-ise), instruct, learn, teach" (Strong’s Greek Dictionary p. 54).

Are you following this amazing use of words? You will now learn a marvelous truth of Scripture that is not being taught in any theological seminary that I am aware of anywhere in the whole world.

We are "judged" by God, and the vehicle that God uses to do this judging is "chastening." In other words, we are "judged" by God by being "trained up" like a child, by being "educated," by "discipline" involving "punishment," "instructed," by which we "learn," and all these "teach" us WHAT WE SHOULD BE.

There is no doubt that some of this chastening can be harsh, sorrowful, and painful. Much of it is not very pleasant and God admits as much to us. And it is not possible for one single son of God to avoid this chastisement! Let’s read it: http://bible-truths.com/lake3.html

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe




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YellowStone

  • Guest
Re: Suffering
« Reply #30 on: July 31, 2007, 07:14:42 PM »

Thanks for a wonderful response Joe,

I would like to add something that may have a scriptual wittness, although one escapes me just now. As has been pointed out in this thread, suffering is subjective and one of the most insideous of all ailments is depression, because it can be hid so well. Who would ever suspect the bell of the ball or the one that is always the center of attention is dying inside from loneliness. There are of course innumerable other conditions associated with depression, but I will speak of loneliness a little longer, because I have suffered from lonliness and depression following my accident and I know well the scars that it can form, yet there are only two people in this world who ever had any idea.

One does not need to be blind or have missing limbs or some deadly illness to know what it is to suffer. Yet, I find loneliness very interesting, for how well do we know anyone? How well does anyone know us? But God knows us perfectly, one cannot hide anything from God and one need not try. For what greater friend has one than the one who knows your every need, even before it is even realized. This was very comforting to me as eventually I realized I was not alone and I learned that if God knew who and what I was then it didn't really matter if everybody else did or not. However, God did provide two people who cared enough to discover me, down to the last detail.

Of course for some reason that I do not yet know, this is very important to me. I guess my point is there is much suffering that goes unsaid and unnoticed, as such I refuse to judge anyone for I am clueless of their past or as Joe mentioned, of their future. The road even though it may appear smooth and straight has many hidden obstacles and each one walks alone with God.

Thanks for listening :)

Love in Christ,
Darren
« Last Edit: August 01, 2007, 01:36:48 AM by YellowStone »
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ciy

  • Guest
Re: Suffering
« Reply #31 on: July 31, 2007, 07:58:52 PM »

A quick insight that I have come to realize. I always looked at trials and suffering as some are worse than others, but I have come to see that's not necessarily true.  Everybody's trials are the same.  It is almost like the theory of relativity because all things are relative.  Throughout the world people are going through trials and tests that are the same whether it is hunger, loneliness, death, money, health, etc it is all the same.  People have committed suicide for every reason under the sun.  To that person at that moment that was as bad a problem as they could handle whether it was being turned away by their sweetheart or whether it was facing a debilitating disease. 

Think on that some and then you may be able to at least cut back on things like coveting because when you covet someone else's position you just do not realize that their problems are as bad to them as yours are to you.

Got to run, but I just think grasping this is breaking more of those ties that bind.
CIY
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hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: Suffering
« Reply #32 on: July 31, 2007, 08:02:38 PM »


 The road even though it may appear smooth and straight has many hidden obstacles and each one walks alone with God.


Darren,

I believe your quote above encapsulates our journey, when it all boils down we are walking with our Lord One on one.

Beautiful insight.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

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ez2u

  • Guest
Re: Suffering
« Reply #33 on: August 01, 2007, 11:00:53 AM »

Joe  I need to share with you.  First I have to talk about gravity.  It pulls all of us down every second of our day. It is so common we don't even think about it.  Up and down a regular habit of being.  God expanse.  He is enlarging His family.  It is the cross + 
God was not strengthening me when I watched my son starve and dehydrate for 15 days.  There was little left in me.  This was when I took on Him..  The Bread of Life.He wasn't carrying me.  It was a folding together.  I was in Him and He was encompassing me.  I in Him and He in me.  I couldn't of made it otherwise.  This saying suffering is all the same I have to disagree.  Jesus suffered much more than me   expansion.  This is something you don't learn from reading your Bible.  Its an action, a firer God walks you through.   the uncovering of my flesh has been raw, hurtful stinkin, but a necessarily.  I often feel a total failure of My ability to do any of His Work  this is good because it is His work and His ability and His life to come forth  In Him Peggy
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hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: Suffering
« Reply #34 on: August 01, 2007, 12:52:55 PM »

Hi Peggy,

I am afraid I do not understand what you are saying, when you said you "disagree about all suffering being the same" where and when did I say that?  ???

I can tell you from my own personal experience that there are some very different degrees in pain and suffering and it can accomplish many things such as making us stronger in the Lord by realizing our helpless and weak condition, make us more empathetic in our dealings with others and also to appreciate things we tend to take for granted. On the other hand depending where He has us in our journey we can become embittered, hateful, angry, self destructive and dangerous to others. I have been there.

If we can endure (with His Spirit) and (spiritually) grow from the trials and tribulations we experience during this time in the world in faith that the ultimate good that comes from it will far, far outweigh this moment of suffering we will emerge from this a true Son or Daughter of the Living God.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

 
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josh

  • Guest
Re: Suffering
« Reply #35 on: August 01, 2007, 01:09:20 PM »

Joe,

Your post reminded me of this passage:

Romans 8:16-19
For His Spirit joins with our spirit to affirm that we are God’s children. And since we are His children, we are His heirs. In fact, together with Christ we are heirs of God’s glory. But if we are to share His glory, we must also share his suffering.

Yet what we suffer now is nothing compared to the glory He will reveal to us later. For all creation is waiting eagerly for that future day when God will reveal who his children really are.


God's Peace.
Josh
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hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: Suffering
« Reply #36 on: August 01, 2007, 01:37:26 PM »

Perfect scriptures Josh!

Thank you,

Joe
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ciy

  • Guest
Re: Suffering
« Reply #37 on: August 01, 2007, 02:00:10 PM »

I said that all go through the same suffering.  I am just coming to realize this, but I believe in one of Ray's videos he talks about how it is all the same.  Just as we judge one sin as worst than another, we sometime judge one's trial as worst than another but if that person is being dragged to Jesus it is the rendering of his flesh.  It is getting rid of his or her beast man and to that person it is a gripping, harrowing experience. 

I believe God made it that way because he is no respecter of persons.  When a person is humbled down to just realizing that all he has is God no matter what it takes to do that tothat person it is the same experience.

I hope you realize what I am trying to convey because it is an encouraging word to realize.  We must all drink from the same cup that Jesus drank from and that is the cup that he asked his Father to let pass.  We too, if we are faithful to the end, will (and are drinking) drink from that same cup.  It is a miracle of God.

This is an interesting verse:
Ecclesiastes 9:2 All things come alike to all: there is one event to the righteous, and to the wicked; to the good and to the clean, and to the unclean; to him that sacrificeth, and to him that sacrificeth not: as is the good, so is the sinner; and he that sweareth, as he that feareth an oath.

God is awesome so we need to encourage one another to count it all joy.
CIY
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Shmeggly

  • Guest
Re: Suffering
« Reply #38 on: August 01, 2007, 02:55:22 PM »

Ok, I'd like to weigh in on this, and incur wrath of some folks if necessary!  :)

Suffering is relative?  Yes, some people can handle things better, but what about people, Christians included, who can't handle things and then kill themselves?  Where was their help?  Was the help there, and they just didn't take/receive it? 

The one aspect of sufferring that I find abhorent is sexual abuse.  How about sexual abuse of a child?  How in the world is that beneficial, or going to help that person to grow?  How does the rape of a woman cause her to grow?  Some will undoubtedly, but some will be traumatized till the day they die.  And it will affect every relationship, and every interaction.  I will apologize if some find this offensive, but these are real questions that you may have to explain to an unbeliever, not someone who might understand. 
Or children that are molested, tortured, then killed?  What was the purpose in that?  These things happen in every society across the globe.  To me that suffering is just suffering.  I may be just too ignorant to see the big picture, but these are questions that bother me.  I hate injustice towards  children....and I have a real hard time with the whole "free will...no free will" thing, as well as suffering.  It's one thing to know that one day all this will seem like a vapor, and that we'll all be redeemed, but that is little comfort to someone who is going through something right now, specially an unbeliever.

Forgive me for my ignorance but try to understand where I'm coming from.  I don't always think clearly.  I do see suffering causing people to grow, but I also see it absolutely destroying people, and some take their own lives.   

I can see my suffering cause me to grow, and hopefully my wife as well.  But there are some things that just don't make any sense in that area.  Even the Jews that made it out of the Warsaw ghetto, they survived, but some of them were affected till they died, and it affected their families etc in a negative way. 
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Pax Vobiscum

  • Guest
Re: Suffering
« Reply #39 on: August 01, 2007, 03:28:35 PM »

     If God allows His children to suffer (I don't even want to fathom should He cause us to suffer) arguably more physical trauma, pain, and intensity than He did while on the cross....

     If God cannot stop this suffering, is He omnipotent? 

     If God is omnipotent, He can prevent, alleviate, or eradicate the suffering of His children.  If He is omnipotent and doesn't stop it because of some promise of a believer's "Suffer now for a great reward later" plan, there is a monstrous cruelty that is difficult to reconcile with Jesus' overarching message of kindness and love.

     If I "allowed" my children to suffer the way that God allows His children to suffer, I would be jailed, scorned, and who-knows-what!  And that's with my imperfect (but pretty awesome) love for my children.

     As a parent, I do allow some short-term, non-debilitating pain to occur in my children so that they can learn -- not love.  A skinned knee now teaches a child how not to break his leg later.  But real suffering and torment and death for a lesson in loving?  Why am I a kinder father than God?

     If I am to be more Christ-like, do I need to allow my loved ones to suffer more so that they can realize more love  later??

     If God is love.  If love is patient, kind, etc.... 

     There must be a better explanation.

Peace



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