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[Kat]

Well this is a hard subject, I don't think there is an easy way to explain this.  We are here is the flesh and enduring these things, so maybe it is incredibly hard to get a proper prospective on what God is working in the world.

Isa 28:21  For Jehovah shall rise up as in Mount Perazim; He shall be angry as in the valley of Gibeon, so that He may do His work, His strange work; and bring to pass His act, His strange act.

I think only the elect are being given a glimpse of understanding of 'His strange work,' which I believe has to do with all this suffering.  Maybe we can not comprehend the good that will come from all this here and now, that's where faith comes in.  
Though the suffering can be intense, I believe God would not put us through it unless it was for the greater good.  And even those horrible acts that defy our understanding for now, I believe in some way, they will turn out to work for our benefit.  Just because we can not now comprehend why, we must put our faith and trust in what He is doing.  I reiterate this scripture that Josh brought up.

Rom 8:18  For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[Deborah-Leigh]

Perhaps you will be satisfied with this explanation Pax.

We have got to get away from the "God allows certain things" mentality and syndrome. God CREATES, God DESTROYS, God HEALS, God KILLS, God CAUSES, God BRINGS ABOUT. God SAVES. God does not "allow" things that He has not foreordained to be! This popular doctrine among the religions of the world is utter unscriptural foolishness. The teaching suggests that man does things that God had no previous knowledge of, does not approve of, wishes would have never happened, but nonetheless, He "allows" them. Certainly He "allows" them in as much as He does not "disallow" them, but this still begs the question as to their true origin. God is the Creator, not Satan.

For more on this teaching refer to : http://bible-truths.com/lake2.html

As Ray teaches, God ALLOWS is a mentality and syndrome we need to get away from. The definition of syndrome is any combination of signs and symptoms that are indicative of a particular disease or disorder.  To my way of thinking, this illness is one of the plagues of Mystery Babylon that really needs to be healed by the truth.

Peace to you

Arcturus

[Pax Vobiscum]

If God possesses the capacity to alleviate someone's suffering and doesn't, then He is allowing it. 

Please actually read my posts before trying to reply to them.  It would be appreciated.

Peace

[hillsbororiver]

     

Why am I a kinder father than God?

 

Pax,

You are not the first to ask this question.....

Job 4:17  Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?

If clay (pottery) or gold ore could were animate and could speak I am sure the same question would be asked (by both) as they experienced the kiln or the refiner's furnace.

Joe

[Pax Vobiscum]

Hmmm....

Perhaps I am not too happy being a pot head!  Who should be?  I appreciate your reply.

Job reiterates than man is less perfect than God.  Like I said, would it stand that God's love would be "kinder" than mine?  Tough one, but good quote.

It still seems to highlight some very big questions regarding the nature of the potter.  It is unsettling in light of other ways He has revealed Himself and His purpose.



Peace

[zvezda]

Suffering is relative?  Yes, some people can handle things better, but what about people, Christians included, who can't handle things and then kill themselves?  Where was their help?  Was the help there, and they just didn't take/receive it?

I was thinking about this too.

1 Corinthians 10:13 And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it

The Greek for temptation and tempted can also mean testing and tested. (from biblegateway.com)

Bible tells us God won't give us anything that we can't handle, but like Shmeggly said, in reality some people can't handle things and then they commit suicide, or they are finally broken, have a nerve breakdown, mental illness or whatever. Is the nerve breakdown/mental illness supposed to be a way out??? I am confused here.....

[Deborah-Leigh]

I am not following you Pax. What do you mean by : Please actually read my posts before trying to reply to them.  It would be appreciated.

God and only God has the ability to respond. Man is not running God's creation, God is. ...Satan is functioning PERFECTLY as God's adversary.  Satan is essential to the purpose and salvation of the whole human race. That is why God created him in the first place L: Ray Smith http://bible-truths.com/lake2.html

Please read Ray's teachings to try to grasp the fuller meaning, benefit and spirit of responses given.

God CREATED the WASTER to DESTROY. Satan SIFTS men like wheat. Satan the Devil has "seed" children and followers of like mind and nature. This is God's Plan not cop out.

Peace to you

Arcturus

[ciy]

I agree Arcturus,
In Ray's writings, he says that until we get past the idea that God "allows" whatever it is whether it is good or evil and realize that God "causes" everything then we cannot begin to get a full understanding of the plan of God.
The disciples that heard Jesus said,"This is a hard saying, who can hear it?"  The ones that could handle the hard teaching to the end were the ones that were eventually truly set free.
CIY

[Deborah-Leigh]

Thank you for that edification CIY.

Most helpful.

Peace to you

Arcturus

[hillsbororiver]

Ray nailed it at the Nashville Conference;

So I say the whole thing is bizarre.  And I say that in love and hopefully with a little wisdom.  This whole creation is bizarre.  God is doing like He said in Isaiah 28:21 “a strange work.”

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.0.html

Thank you for transcribing this Kat.

It really is a must read and/or a must see if you are able to download and play the audio.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

P.S. You are welcome Pax 

[hillsbororiver]

1 Corinthians 10:13 And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it

The Greek for temptation and tempted can also mean testing and tested. (from biblegateway.com)

Bible tells us God won't give us anything that we can't handle, but like Shmeggly said, in reality some people can't handle things and then they commit suicide, or they are finally broken, have a nerve breakdown, mental illness or whatever. Is the nerve breakdown/mental illness supposed to be a way out??? I am confused here.....

Hi zvezda,

Remember this verse is intended for the elect it does not apply to everyone just as virtually the entire bible is a parable to the unbelievers and the called, they are not meant to understand any of it yet.

Christ will not lose any of those that the Father has chosen to do this great work of harvesting in the next age nor will He allow any temptation that they cannot bear nor will He allow them (hopefully that includes us) to be deceived, it is not possible.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

[musicman]

And also, I am reading where some folks questioning God's trials when they often shatter the spirits of people.  Sometimes they can be overcome, but other times they lead to a person's demise.  I think that the elect will always become stronger over time because of trials.  However, this is not always so for the rest.  I would say that most people become harder and more cynical because of life's evils.

[zvezda]

Joe, thanks for your reply, I didn't know that verse is intended for the elect only, thanks for clarifying 

[Pax Vobiscum]

Let me say this clearly.

If person "A" has the wherewithal to alter the course of situation "B," then "A" allows "B" to occur. 

If God has the wherewithal to alter the course of suffering, then God allows suffering to occur.

Pretty much dictionary plain.

Now, in this thread, I have read some very, very unusual explanations.  God does not allow suffering.  God allows suffering, but not too much.  God allows suffering but has a plan that is perfect and unalterable even by God!

The problem here is that a false premise leads to a false conclusion no matter how elegant or tidy.

It is clear that God permits (there, does that help?) or creates (how's that?  It's still allowing!) suffering.  The question for me (and others) then is "Why?"

Going on a holiday tomorrow. 

Peace

[hillsbororiver]

Let me say this clearly.

If person "A" has the wherewithal to alter the course of situation "B," then "A" allows "B" to occur. 

If God has the wherewithal to alter the course of suffering, then God allows suffering to occur.

Pretty much dictionary plain.

Now, in this thread, I have read some very, very unusual explanations.  God does not allow suffering.  God allows suffering, but not too much.  God allows suffering but has a plan that is perfect and unalterable even by God!

The problem here is that a false premise leads to a false conclusion no matter how elegant or tidy.

It is clear that God permits (there, does that help?) or creates (how's that?  It's still allowing!) suffering.  The question for me (and others) then is "Why?"

Going on a holiday tomorrow. 

Peace

Hi Pax,

Why does a parent instruct, admonish and chastise a child?

Why would a parent take a small child to a strange atmosphere such as a doctor's office to be pricked by a needle causing the poor child to scream in fear and endure pain?

Why would a parent require a child to do anything other than what gave that child short term pleasure, ice cream for breakfast, MickyD's for every other meal, soda for every drink.

Why force them to go to school when they would rather play video games?

Why not just give them the keys to the car, your ATM card and unlimited access to the internet and permission to interact with anybody and everybody?

We do these things for their ultimate good and we do it with conviction knowing if we are lax or too lenient that both the child and parent will pay dearly at some point in time.

The questions above may very well seem to be elementary and redundant but as God desires true Sons and Daughters and not androids or robots we must learn righteousness through experiencing the consequences of sin, we must have any doubt about His will, plan and purpose removed by suffering through the results of living outside of what is Holy, Good & Eternal, what better way to learn this than having first hand knowledge of sin, evil and the temporal?

2Co 4:16  For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.
 
2Co 4:17  For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;
 
2Co 4:18  While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Heb 12:4  Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
 
Heb 12:5  And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
 
Heb 12:6  For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
 
Heb 12:7  If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
 
Heb 12:8  But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye ******** and not sons.
 
Heb 12:9  Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits and live?
 
Heb 12:10  For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
 
Heb 12:11  Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

Ray explains this much better than I, please read or listen to the audio of this topic from the Nashville Conference.

His Peace to you,

Joe

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.0.html

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2641.0.html

[Pax Vobiscum]

Thanks for the thoughtful and surprising response!

(You may want to sit down for this next part...)

The tone of your post suggests that you disagree with what I have been offering, but your comments, text, and citations confirm that God allows suffering for whatever His reasons and plan may be!

This much is true:  The mystery of His Plan will remain largely mystery; the beauty of His Plan is that we can both claim to be sons of the Most High even though we (often) disagree on the details.  It is a poverty that there are those who cannot make that connection and publicly post that which should be privately discussed.  Ah well!

Peace

[hillsbororiver]

You are very welcome Pax, I have often said that no two of us here in the flesh on this earth can occupy the same space at the same moment in time (basic physics testifies to this) therefore our vantage points will never totally converge.

When we finally receive our inheritance and are spirit, incorruptable and immortal I suspect everyone will be on the same page as we are all in all in God.

We can all learn from each other even in disagreement if it inspires us to deeper study and prayers for understanding and clarity, we each are on a One on one walk with the Lord and that is how He designed it, we must recognize this in our brethren because all have a very high value in His eyes.

1Co 6:20  For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God's.

Thank you for your response,

Joe
 

[musicman]

I still don't agree with this churchianity doctrine of "allow".  If I see an old lady walking towards me and I move out of the way, I am allowing her to pass.  However, If I become possessed (caused by some force) to push her down, I have caused her to fall down.  If I walk into the expressway blindfolded, I am allowing a car or truck to destroy me, but if I first take off the blindfold and walk smack dab right in from of a Mac Truck moving 70 mph., I am causing it to crush me.  Big difference.

[YellowStone]

Hi Musicman

You wrote: "If I walk into the expressway blindfolded, I am allowing a car or truck to destroy me, but if I first take off the blindfold and walk smack dab right in from of a Mac Truck moving 70 mph., I am causing it to crush me.  Big difference."
I'm not sure if I would agree. There are far to many factors involved to say that you caused the truck to crush you. What you have done is caused your body to move in front of the truck, ths allowing it to crush you. This is exactly the same as what happened if you were blind folded, the only difference is your ignorance of the truck, but the same actions caused you to move in front of the truck, allowing it to crush you.

Does that make sense.

Love in Christ,
Darren

[DuluthGA]

To jump in... Hi Joe, I love all of your postings with one small exception.  On page 3 of this thread, a small paragraph of your otherwise great reply #32:

"The good news is that if we have a volunteering heart and accept the judgments of God on our lives now, we will be sure to avoid the harsher judgment on the whole world reserved for "that day."

This seems illogical to me that one individual's judgment would be "harsher" at one point or another.  I think more correctly that God will deal out a judgment to each individual that will be fitting no matter when it is meted out.  Surely you mean this and that your words just don't come across that way.

Further, because of the implication that if one turns up at the 2nd resurrection somehow their judgment will be "harsher" because they've been lumped in with all the rest of erring and ignorant humanity is also of course erroneous for the same reason.  Surely you don't mean that at all either.

Lastly, I have found an erie sense of BAD BUG-A-BOO comments about the great white throne judgment here and there on this forum, especially among long-timers; that it will be really bad, horrible, fearful, dreadful and as you, Joe, seem to imply HARSHER than His judgment would be otherwise.  I say not so and let's all collectively stop publishing this skewed notion of God's GREATEST DAY to come!!  His day that will set things right!

Ray goes to great lengths to inform that the GWTJ will be in the "safe/fair habor" of God and that brimstone represents cleansing in it's godly and purest form.  Where are the hints of fear, dread and HARSHNESS I hear echoed around here portrayed by Ray on this matter?  Answer: Little or none at all.

I have come to liken the GWTJ by the following analogy, having been a respiratory therapist being on hand for the birthing of babies.... many are what we call a "WIPE OFF," just a quick cleaning up and off they go....

As responsible readers of Ray, let's not embellish what might happen at the GWTJ for the worst.  Yes I know Ray says it will not be pleasant but he doesn't talk it up too much more than that.  I quite frankly think ALL of the basic goodies (saints and called) who were not assigned to be Elect will be pleasantly surprised.    For them, I think it'll sort be a "wipe off" as will those who never heard the Word, the prophets and many from the O.T. as well as those dying young or very young, etc.

I prayerfully thank you for all things Lord and Father, especially Joe's wonderful postings. 
Janice