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[hillsbororiver]

Luk 12:48  But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Hi Janice, as the verse above implies there will be different degrees of severity in that Great Day of Judgment, those that knew little will be judged in a less "wrathful" manner, but do not forget what the promise is to those who remain in Mystery Babylon in bed with the harlot.

Rev 16:19  And the great city was divided into three parts and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

That is not the destiny of the elect though;

1Th 5:9  For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Here is a portion from Ray's "Rapture" paper;

http://bible-truths.com/rapture.htm

At this point in our discussion, it will be helpful to define some words that are often interchanged as if they are virtually one and the same. It is important that we understand the meanings of important words that are wrongly applied by those who teach the rapture:

1. Affliction: Keyword Concordance, anguish, persecution, tribulation, trouble, ill treatment, suffering. Webster’s: affliction, any cause of pain or suffering.

AND

2.Tribulation: Keyword Concordance, affliction Webster’s: tribulation, great misery or distress

VERSUS

3.Wrath: Keyword Concordance, fury, indignation, vexation Webster’s: wrath, intense anger, rage, fury, vengeance

AND

4.Indignation: Keyword Concd., anger, vengeance, wrath Webster’s: Adj.-- indignation, expressing anger especially unjust or mean actions. Noun-- righteous anger.

Although there is somewhat of an overlap in defining these words, we can still get a clear picture as to how these words are used in the Scriptures. Notice that "affliction" and "tribulation" are nearly synonymous. Notice also, that "wrath" and "indignation" are nearly synonymous. "Affliction" can be defined as "tribulation," and "tribulation" can be defined as "affliction." Likewise, "wrath" can be defined as "indignation," and "indignation" can be defined as "wrath." But, the first two words, "affliction and tribulation" are not synonymous with the second two words, "wrath and indignation." There is a giant difference in their usage, and especially when used in a prophetic setting. I hope I haven’t lost anyone. Reread this a few times and you’ll get it.

It is when we fail to keep these prophetic events where they belong that we end up with ideas such that Christ is coming back a second time twice.

The Scripture says,

"For God did not appoint us to INDIGNATION ..." (I Thes. 5:9).

It nowhere says that God has not appointed us to trials, troubles, pain, suffering, heartache, disappointment, disease, death, or hurricanes! In fact, Paul himself, tells us that we enter the Kingdom of God by going through a whole lot of these things (Acts 14:22).

I personally, presently, am going through trials, troubles, pain, suffering, heartache, disappointment, disease, and two very near death experiences in the past few years, not to mention hurricane Andrew. But, nonetheless, it is a great comfort to me to know that God has not appointed me to His indignation. Believers are chastised by a wise Father out of LOVE, the nations will be punished by an angry God out of VENGEANCE. Can we not see the difference? (Actually God’s "anger and vengeance" is also out of love, but the nations will certainly not initially perceive it as such).

When we look at all the ways that "indignation" is used in the Greek Scriptures, it becomes overwhelmingly clear that "indignation" is used of God to punish the wicked and stubborn. Indignation is not a direct form of chastisement. No matter how many, how much, how often, how severe your sufferings and tribulations may be, if you love God you can be absolutely guaranteed that not one iota of it is coming upon you in the form of God’s indignation. Here then is how, on whom, and when God pours out His indignation:

"Progeny of vipers! Who intimates to you to be fleeing from the impending indignation?" (Matt. 3:7).

"For God’s indignation is being revealed from heaven on all the irreverence and injustice of men ..." (Rom. 1:18).

"Yet, in accord with your hardness and unrepentant heart you are hoarding for yourself indignation in the day of indignation and revelation of the just judgment of God ..." (Rom. 2:5).

"Much rather, then, being now justified in His blood, we shall be saved from indignation, through Him" (Rom. 5:9).

"Now if God, wanting to display His indignation and to make His powerful doings known, carries, with much patience, the vessels of indignation ..." (Rom. 9:22).

"Being at peace with all mankind, you are not avenging yourselves, beloved, but be giving place to His indignation, for it is written, "Mine is vengeance! I will repay! The Lord is saying" (Rom. 12:19).

"Let no one be seducing you with empty words, for because of these things the indignation of God is coming on the sons of stubbornness" (Eph. 5:6).

"Deaden, then, your members that are on the earth: prostitution, uncleanness, passion, evil desire and greed, which is idolatry, because of which the indignation of God is coming on the sons of stubbornness ..." (Col. 3:5-6).

"Wherefore, ‘I am disgusted with this generation, and said, Ever are they straying in heart; Yet they know not My ways,’ As I swear in My indignation, If they shall be entering into My rest ...!" (Heb. 3:10-11).

"Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him Who is sitting on the throne, and from the indignation of the Lambkin, for the great day of Their indignation came, and who is able to stand? (Rev. 6:17).

"And the nations are angered, and Thy indignation came, and the era for the dead to be judged, and to give their wages to Thy slaves, the prophets, and to the saints and to those fearing Thy name, the small and the great, and to blight those who are blighting the earth" (Rev. 11:18-19).

"If anyone is worshiping the wild beast and its image, and is getting an emblem on his forehead or on his hand, he, also, is drinking of the wine of the fury of God, blended undiluted in the cup of His indignation, and he shall be tormented in fire and sulfur in the sight of the holy messengers and in the sight of the Lambkin" (Rev. 14:9-10).

"And Babylon the great is brought to remembrance in the sight of God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fury of His indignation" (Rev. 16:19).

"And He is treading the wine trough of the fury of the indignation of God, the Almighty" (Rev. 19:15).

There are the Greek Scriptures on indignation. Notice that it always comes from God. It is poured out in vengeance upon the unrepentant, the stubborn, the unjust and irreverent, those who worship the beast, etc. Never is God’s indignation poured out on His SAINTS! Not the Gentile saints and not the Jewish saints. The saints of Israel have not "been appointed to indignation", they are not "of the night," they will not "be overtaken as a thief," they are a part of "all the saints," I Thes. 2:14 and 3:13.

It is stated that those called in Paul’s message of grace will not go through the Great Tribulation period, because:

"Jesus, our Rescuer out of the coming indignation" (I Thes. 1:10),

and

"God did not appoint us to indignation ..." (I Thes. 5:9).

But look at our definitions of words again. God is promising to rescue us out of coming "indignation," not "tribulation." God did not appoint us to "indignation," but He did appoint us to "tribulation." These terms are not synonymous.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

[hillsbororiver]

ALL of the basic goodies (saints and called) who were not assigned to be Elect will be pleasantly surprised.    For them, I think it'll sort be a "wipe off" as will those who never heard the Word, the prophets and many from the O.T. as well as those dying young or very young, etc.

Hello again Janice,

Thank you for the kind words, I agree with you that the OT Prophets and many of the unbelievers (especially the very young) and even some of the called will get correction and will learn righteousness in a less severe manner than others that exulted in their stubborness and evil works. But it is clear that being in the first resurrection will be immeasurably better than experiencing the "second death."

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe
 

[ciy]

Musicman,
 
I agree with you.  The following is some great writing by Ray that hammers home the truth of whether God allows or not.  I love this and would recommend anybody to read this over and over.  The truth, and this is the truth, will set one free when they see it.

CAN YOU HANDLE THE TRUTH?

Even if we were to accept Mr. Robertson’s theory that God had nothing to do with this Christmas tsunami, we would still be forced to concede that “God allowed it.” That is, in fact, the terminology that is used in most discussions of this subject—Why did God “allow” it? Why does God “allow” this, that, and the other thing?

Allow, allow, allow. That is the mind-set of most discussions whether they are religious or secular—Why did God “allow” it? Surely no one doubts God’s ability to stop any or all such catastrophes if He so desired? A man in an Atlanta Court House murdered three people. Since God obviously did not stop it, why then did God “allow” it?   Would you really like to know why God “allowed” those murders and why He allowed the Christmas tsunami?

And not only why did He allow this tsunami, but all tsunamis, and typhoons, and hurricanes, and floods, and tornadoes, and violent thunderstorms, and rock slides and mud slides, and avalanches, and volcanoes, and earthquakes, and forest fires, and droughts, and famines, and diseases, wars and holocausts, and (not just the killing 3 people in Atlanta), but all deaths? Do you really want to know why God “allows” these things? Are you sure you are ready for God’s answer to this most profound mystery in all creation?

I am reminded of the film, “A Few Good Men.” In a dramatic court scene Tom Cruise demands of the witness: “I want the TRUTH!” To which Jack Nicholson shouts back: “You can’t HANDLE the TRUTH!!” 

This is what I fear is the situation here. People think they want the truth, but they can’t handle the truth. Very few indeed want the whole Truth: the whole counsel of God. And most of those who have heard it have been highly offended by it. Often they killed the messengers who brought God’s message of Truth. That’s just how offensive the Truth of God is to the carnal mind. I have a drawer full of emails that speak volumes against God’s Truth.

But I know that there are a few chosen of God to whom the Truth is not offensive. For those few I will continue. As Joan Rivers used to say: “Can we talk?” Are your kids in bed? Can we talk? The remainder of this series on free will is not for the immature or faint of heart.

Okay then, back to our question: Why does God “allow” all of the pain, suffering, disasters, and even mass killing of the innocent to happen? Actually, the question is not even a legitimate question because God does not “allow” any of these disasters to happen. Here then is one of the greatest truths in all the world and of all Scripture:

God does not “allow” anything to happen: God is the ultimate CAUSE of all things that happen!

If a person is able to prevent a crime (let’s say without any expense or harm to himself) but doesn’t, he is no better than the one who commits the crime. So now the question is: “Where is Jesus Christ when all such crimes are committed?" Is Jesus no more powerful or responsible than the god Baal?

“About noontime, Elijah began mocking them [the priests of Baal]. You’ll have to shout louder than that; he scoffed, to catch the attention of your god! Perhaps he is talking to someone, or is out sitting on the toilet, or maybe he is away on a trip, or is asleep and needs to be wakened!” (I Kings 18:27, The Living Bible).

No, Jesus does not live far far away on the other side of the universe in a place called heaven. Heaven is not a place; heaven is the realm of spirit. Jesus does not sleep in heaven. Jesus does not live in a physical heaven. Jesus will not live in a physical body full of holes, for the rest of eternity either. It is impossible to even think about these important issues of life with the mentality of Christian doctrines. Jesus Christ is “spirit”: “Now the Lord is that SPIRIT…” (II Cor. 3:17). Make no mistake about it; Jesus Christ is present at every crime scene that ever was or will be.

Jesus is at the scene of every crime in the world, and He is there before the crime actually happens. What would Jesus say to a woman if she were in the presence of some slimeball who is hell-bent on raping her little daughter? We know that Jesus is there, but what if Jesus manifested Himself right there, at the scene? What would Jesus say when the woman would beg Him to stop this slimeball from raping or murdering her daughter?

Surely He would stop the crime, right? Well if that be the case, how come there are so many rapes and murders that have not been prevented by Jesus? Do not all parents (almost all) pray for the safety of their children? So the pat Christian answer is: “Well, we don’t know why, but God allowed it.” God no more allows crimes that harm one or two individuals than he allows tsunamies that harm and hundreds of thousands.

I am well aware of the fact that Jesus does at times intervene and stop some crime or evil from taking place. I am now referring to those times when He does not intervene and stop the crime. Why does He “allow” it?

You say, “Well, nobody knows the answer to that!” Oh but we do know the answer. The Scriptures give us the answer. We don’t want the Scriptural answer. We don’t want the truth. We can’t handle the truth. And woe to the messenger who delivers the truth!

And just what do we think we gain by using the catch phrase: “God allowed it?” Does that phrase get God off the hook of responsibility and place the responsibility upon His mal-functioning inventions?   Does the word “allow” carry the connotation: “I had nothing to do with it?” “My hands are clean?” “It’s not my job to prevent evil crimes?” Is this what the word “allow” really means?

The American Heritage College Dictionary:

“ allow v. –lowed, -lowing, -lows. 1. To LET do or happen; PERMIT.”

“permit v. –mitted, -mitting, -mits. 1. To ALLOW the doing of; CONSENT. 2. To GRANT. 3. To AFFORD OPPORTUNITY.

Now then, do we feel better about this theological heresy and nonsense by using the word “allow”? If a Police Officer were to, LET HAPPEN, PERMIT, CONSENT, GRANT, and AFFORD OPPORTUNITY for a horrible crime to take place without lifting a finger to stop it, would he be morally guiltless for “allowing” it to happen? Does the catch phrase “allow” with all of its definitions somehow make void the responsibility of the Police Officer? Is God Almighty less capable and less responsible than even a carnal-minded Police Officer?

Why then do theologians invent their own solution to the problem by applying the unscriptural word “allow” to the acts of God, rather than to accept the plain truth of Scripture concerning these matters? Well, for the exact same reason they invent the unscriptural phrase “free-will” to get God off of the hook of responsibility for the evils in God’s Own creation!   They don’t want the truth; they can’t handle the truth; the truth would convict their own evil and carnal-minded hearts, and they would be forced to humble themselves and repent!

Could any of us honestly say with respect to our presence at an imminent crime, that if we: “allowed, let happen, permitted to happen, consented to its happening, granted it to happen, and afforded it the opportunity to happen,” then our hands are clean? We have no involvement in the crime? We had no obligations, and we are not to be held accountable and responsible?

You know that I speak the truth, but many of you can’t handle the truth.

So am I saying that since God is the Creator of all, and Sustainer of all, and by Him all things Consist, and He already knows all that is and will be, and He works all things after the counsel of His Own will, that all of the crimes of the world are a part of God’s plan? No, that is not my teaching. But this is precisely what the Scriptures say! This is not some perverted theory. I read it in the Bible—in hundreds and hundreds of places!

I have no problem in justifying God in all of His doings, even though I personally am overwhelmed at times over the magnitude of pain and evil that God has subjected us to. It is humbling! It surely does produce God’s desired purpose, and I can personally attest to this fact. Inventing an unscriptural and anti-scriptural term like "human free will" or "free choice" does not remove the consequences of evil from God's shoulders.

This whole paper should be read over and over until this truth is solid because it turns the bible into a brilliant living and moving kaleidiscope of truth that is true no matter which way you turn it.
CIY

[DuluthGA]

Gotcha and righto Joe... THANKS A LOT!   

Back to the topic of this thread, sufferings... I've been keeping a running collection of Scripture verses that I run into with the theme of:  Our Afflictions, Tribulations and Sufferings.  Would you believe there are over 100 related N.T. verse sets?  Other words and terms that are included in this collection are:

Walk as He walked, pick up your cross, take My yoke, crucify the flesh, present a living sacrifice, die with Him, crucified with Christ, baptized into His death, enduring trials/testing, he who destroys his soul, dying to bring forth much fruit, as He is so are we, the world hates you, troubles, perplexed, persecuted, cast down, refining, labors, distresses, and to you who overcome....

and NONE of these approximate 100 verse sets EVEN include another whole separate theme of being chastened, chastisement, sourged, rebuked, corrected.

Going over all these verses at one time is impressive and gives me the idea of what being a follower of Christ is really all about... versus "clocking in" an hour a week at the local synogogue of Satan then going on with one's life having been essentially unchanged. 

Love in Him,
Janice

[gmik]

Love it Rodger.  That "cuz you are and I AM" really caught my attention!!

[YellowStone]

Rodger wrote:

And puny man should think to question "why all the suffering ?", the ANSWER is because you ARE and " I AM "

I am sorry Rodger but I digress. God is purpose, God is also wise for He beyond anything else is knowledge in action.

Who would think him so callous to treat his children some even is chosen as dirt beneath his hypothetical feet.

It is my belief and understanding, that if man should question God for the pain and humiliation that one is being subjected to with a sincere heart and a trusting soul, then God will in all honesty reveal his reason and lesson to be learned.

Even to those who are yet blind. Are they blind of truth of their on violation. Of course not, yet if one should even ask: "Lord, why the pain?" Do you really think God is going to throw it back into his/her face.

Rodger I believe that your answer is misleading and wrong. God is not vindictive to those who seek him, why does he need to be.

My hope is that you take this in the spirit given

Love in Christ, the Lamb.

Darren

[gmik]

Darren, I re read Rodgers post again and didn't see what you saw.

How did Rodger say God was vindictive.  We are all w/o excuse-we all sin and come short of the glory(hand in jar).

Well, I know Rodger can well explain his own posts.

[YellowStone]

Hi Gena,

Of course Rodger can stand up for himself, but the word vindictive came to mind because of it's meaning.

Quick definitions (vindictive)  http://onelook.com/?w=vindictive&ls=a

adjective:   disposed to seek revenge or intended for revenge (Example: "More vindictive than jealous love- Shakespeare")

adjective:   showing malicious ill will and a desire to hurt; motivated by spite

This would seem (in my mind) fit very well with Rodgers words of: "And puny man should think to question "why all the suffering ?", the ANSWER is because you ARE and " I AM ""

Is this not saying: You are suffering and what are you going to do about it?

Well it is according to my understanding of the English langauge

Thanks for your comment,

Darren

[gmik]

I took it to mean;   I am God and know a bit more about all this than you do.   (In other words, trust me)

Sorin asked in a thread, what would you ask God.  Maybe we should ask then....Why was suffering necessary to your plan?

[Falconn003]

GENA

BRAVO and A M E N

Is this not the SPIRITUAL ENLIGHTENMENT we get from reading JOB.

Where God states who are you to question me.............reading does a mind so good.

God bless
Rodger

[YellowStone]

Hi Rodger, I am sorry that you took it this way.

You say: Your heart reads into post what you let it.............I can not open your eyes to the meat of the Word.

milk and cookies

And I will ask you a simple question: Has God ever answered you in such away, because He surely hasn't in such a way to me. There is a lesson in everything, Ask and you shall receive (Luk 11:9)

Are you saying I am blind to the meat. Please.

I still love you brother

Love In Christ the Lamb
Darren

Darren

In short go read JOB and re-read the ending of JOB over and over and over....

Take in the spirit JOB enlightement is to feed you and nothing else.

It is my belief and understanding, that if man should question God for the pain and humiliation that one is being subjected to with a sincere heart and a trusting soul, then God will in all honesty reveal his reason and lesson to be learned.

Even to those who are yet blind. Are they blind of truth of their on violation. Of course not, yet if one should even ask: "Lord, why the pain?" Do you really think God is going to throw it back into his/her face.

Dareen please show me in JOB where

God will in all honesty reveal his reason and lesson to be learned.

And tell us what God tells to those who ask why ?

adjective:   showing malicious ill will and a desire to hurt; motivated by spite

This would seem (in my mind) fit very well with Rodgers words of: "And puny man should think to question "why all the suffering ?", the ANSWER is because you ARE and " I AM ""

Is this not saying: You are suffering and what are you going to do about it?

Your heart reads into post what you let it.............I can not open your eyes to the meat of the Word.

milk and cookies
Rodger

[ez2u]

okay  something I believe you all are missing that is no one directly cause this suffering   God chosen  God's elect.  Doesn't God make us just the way we are?  And doesn't He put us in the family He wants us in ect....God does things that our human mind can not comprehend.  all this talk all these words  have you ever lived each day in fear of what is going to happen next to you. as a child?  Do you think you have that much control as to how you are going to not go crazy?  Sometimes you do go crazy and the Lord Jesus Christ brings you back, some that is.   We aren't that BIG  and one more thing He doesn't strengthen us in a trial  he is our strength.  When its over that's what we learn He is our strength.  We aren't stronger in Him He is stronger in us, and we know it then.  some are not thinking straight.  I have walked through the firer more than once  I am not here to tell the stories.  Its not about me at all I am nothing a weak broken vessel waiting for Him to pour down upon me His anointing to do His Will.  Because I can' t Do His Will with out Him.  What is the point of all this ?  To show people what you know.  Look at the original question?  Does anyone have the Word of the Lord Jesus Christ?  Again no one not one said any thing about the Mentally ill  why?  Leper  This is crazy  Peggy

[YellowStone]

Darren

You say: Your heart reads into post what you let it.............I can not open your eyes to the meat of the Word.

milk and cookies

And I will ask you a simple question: Has God ever answered you in such away, because He surely hasn't in such a way to me. There is a lesson in everything, Ask and you shall receive (Luk 11:9)

This is so tempting........ , but you ask a question, my answer is OF COURSE He does. He is God THE BEGINING and the END ! 

Altough Darren, if remotly you are reffering to what i posted "Your heart reads into post what you let it.............I can not open your eyes to the meat of the Word. and applying it as if possibly God would say such, Then Darren you are in an worldly carnal enigma.

How inane, should anyone think they can prideful bring God down to human nature. If this is the divinty with which anyone cast on our Father, then get thy behind me.......and i wash my hands of you. ((anyone who would be foolish to apply sinful man's attributes to God))

Who am i ((Rodger)) to ever question God.....And who is anyone to instill in thier hearts and minds, unto God attributes of sinful man.

When has sinful man ever created anything out of NOTHING, so as to think man can stand equal to God, the boundaries of the carnal mind knows no shame.

Spiritualy Darren you have missed the understanding of my post and are focus on me instead, as the individual your heart and mind portrays me as. 

The called out and chosen are not those who are luke warm and sit at the side of the road and ponder "WHY ?"

milk and cookies with luv
Rodger
Now we can lock this puppy.......

Rodger, only now do I see where you are coming from, yet in your zeal to belittle me and all that I wrote, you mock and you condemn.

Let us please before this thread degrades any further reach a common understanding.

You wrote, and I repeat: "And puny man should think to question "why all the suffering ?", the ANSWER is because you are and " I AM ""

I can only assume you are referring to the Question being asked as: "Why God? Why did you do this to ME???" (How carnal)

Yet your context, does not disallow the question to be ask in the following manner: "God, I know your ways are higher than my ways and I know everything is for my own good, but God, I need some help to fully understand what I am missing....Why all the Suffering"

Rodger, I did not focus on you, I focused on the words that you wrote, just as I do now:

Altough Darren, if remotly you are reffering to what i posted "Your heart reads into post what you let it.............I can not open your eyes to the meat of the Word. and applying it as if possibly God would say such, Then Darren you are in an worldly carnal enigma.

How inane, should anyone think they can prideful bring God down to human nature. If this is the divinty with which anyone cast on our Father, then get thy behind me.......and i wash my hands of you. ((anyone who would be foolish to apply sinful man's attributes to God))

Yet, while you wash your hands of me, are you to going to dismiss the words of Christ?

Jhn 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.  

Jhn 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give [it] you.   

Jhn 16:26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:   

Jam 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all [men] liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.   

How can any be pridefully bringing God down to "their" level, if they even attempt to ask God for wisdom and understanding. Not so they can ESCAPE the suffering, but so they can UNDERSTAND and LEARN from it. Are you even suggesting that God denys even what He so freely gives?

Rodger, this is where the "meat" is, it is the realization that one can do nothing on ones own. It is the letting go of every carnal belief in oneself and trusting God completely, AND knowinf without exception that He will show the way and pull one back when one begins to falter and stumble. So yes, God has always answered me, though not always in the way that I expected, yet NEVER in the way you suggest.

I am sorry that I failed to see the intent of your question, the clause you added at the end of your response was not forthwith in the original. You mentioned nothing about "sitting on the edge of the road pondering 'Why?'"

Perhaps we both should take a long and meaningful look at the following Words of Wisdom.

Mat 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?  

Mat 7:4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam [is] in thine own eye?  

Mat 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye. 

It is my hope that we can find common ground between us in the love of Christ who died for all men alike.

Love in the Lamb,
Darren

[Harryfeat]

Hey Darren,

I had the same initial reaction that you did.  To say that man's actions  are a contributory cause to his suffering is similar to saying that man's actions are a contributory cause to his salvation.  It seemed not only misleading but smacked of man's arrogance and belief in free will.  Heresy!

Though it seemed the cookie monster had struck again , I don't think that was the intended message.  Gina picked up on it and it is what I believe we have be dancing around this whole thread.  What is God's plan?

Maybe the elect, whoever they may be, understand His plan but I haven't been able to piece it together.  I think I got some of the clues.  Maybe these are parts to the puzzle, maybe not:

What does scripture say about the worth of human physical body to God?  Anything really positive there?
Filthy rags, vessels of dishonor..etc....

If physical existence were important to Him, death wouldn't be our end.  It seems that our physical existence is more of a trial period of learning than anything else.

What about the idea of many are called, few are chosen?  What about those that aren't even called?  What is the purpose of their lives?

Here is a perspective I don't remember reading but perhaps I missed it is this rather long thread.  What if part of His plan is to have some of us as expendable examples for those of His chosen to learn from.  He has time and again shown us in the OT how "valuable" human physical life is to Him.  He wiped out the entire human race except for Noah and his family.  It was certainly a clear message to Noah if no one else.  Noah seems to be shadow of His intended plan for His elect.

I don't have an answer for the suffering but I accept that His will is foremost even though  His plan and purpose a mystery to me.

Thanks Joe, Janice and everyone for those inspiring posts.  Your thoughtful sharing is a blessing to me.

be blessed,
feat

[YellowStone]

Hi Feat

Thanks for your post. I do not believe for a second that the Elect, whoever they maybe, have the slightest inkling of what God has planned, other than that God is preparing them to for judging at the time of the resurection.

However, you ask: "What does scripture say about the worth of human physical body to God?  Anything really positive there? "

As a matter of fact yes

1Cr 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?  

But the physical body is not important in and of itself; rather it is the vessel that with the Spirit of life, becomes the Soul. And as such, is what we use on our journey on the road to truth. The purpose of life as we know it is to live and grow in truth, the very truth that God himself grants. God cares about the body, otherwise he would not look after it.

Mat 6:30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, [shall he] not much more [clothe] you, O ye of little faith?  

I agree with you 100%, everything that happens is an opportunity to grow in Truth. If we do do not understand, are we to dismiss it and shrug it off, or should we ask for guideance. Surely if any were told that they had terminal cancer, they would implore God to help them understand what He wants of them. Is it to have faith enough to beat it, or is it to accept it and be an inspiration to all right to the end. The lesson could be anything, but how can anyone know if one does not ask God for understanding?

This is my understanding, God walks with us, it man who chooses to walk alone. I say choose not and ask for help.

Love in Christ,
Darren

[Harryfeat]

Hey Darren,

1Co 6:18 Flee fornication! Every sin, whatsoever a man shall commit, is, outside his body, but, he that committeth fornication, bringeth sin into his own body.
1Co 6:19 Or know ye not that, your body, is, a shrine of the Holy Spirit that is within you, which ye have from God? And ye are not your own;—
1Co 6:20 For ye have been bought with a price! Therefore glorify God in your body.

Thanks for bringing up Corinthians. It is one of my favorites.  Even though it says nothing about whether our bodies are any better than 'vessels of dishonor", it very clearly emphasizes my point that our bodies are not our own and should be used to glorify God   God chooses to do with them as He wishes. 

I agree with you 100%, everything that happens is an opportunity to grow in Truth. If we do do not understand, are we to dismiss it and shrug it off, or should we ask for guideance. Surely if any were told that they had terminal cancer, they would implore God to help them understand what He wants of them. Is it to have faith enough to beat it, or is it to accept it and be an inspiration to all right to the end. The lesson could be anything, but how can anyone know if one does not ask God for understanding?

Clearly, while we can only hope that what happens to us is an opportunity for growth, my prior post and point of perspective was that maybe some of us are not meant to be anything other than throw away examples for growth of those who have been chosen.  What about those not called or chosen?

Here is a quote that gave me some perspective on faith and me continuously asking God WHY? WHY?. WHY?

The science of theology is full of theories
   and explanations of the wonders of this state in each soul according to its
   capacity. One may be conversant with all these speculations, speak and write
   about them admirably, instruct others and guide souls; yet, if these
   theories are only in the mind, one is, compared with those who, without any
   knowledge of these theories, receive the meaning of the designs of God and
   do His holy will, like a sick physician compared to simple people in perfect
   health. The designs of God and his divine will accepted by a faithful soul
   with simplicity produces this divine state in it without its knowledge, just
   as a medicine taken obediently will produce health, although the sick person
   neither knows nor wishes to know anything about medicine.

   ABANDONMENT TO DIVINE PROVIDENCE
   - by Jean Pierre de Caussade, S.J.



While an  imperfect discussion of Faith, it gave me a little perspective on myself.  I hope it helps in our understanding.

be blessed
feat

[YellowStone]

Hi Feat

Yep, I forgot to explicitly mention that every opportunity, even the suffering or death of a non-believer, provides an opportunity to grow in truth.

As for Corinthians I think a "Shrine of the Holy Spirit" and "vessel of dishonor" should not refer to the same body. Perhaps the body is inherently a vessel of dishonor until it becomes a shrine of the Holy Spirit.

Thanks for sharing a little of yourself and it has helped in our understanding.

Love to you in Christ,
Darren

[YellowStone]

Hi Rodger,

I sure am glad God reads hearts and knows mine. 

Clearly I have upset you and that was never my intention.

Rom 14:19 Trust Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.

Love in Christ
Darren

[Shmeggly]

I'm with Darren and Pax on this one....who cares if suffering is allowed or caused; it's still happening.  Which is worse?  Isn't it just semantics?  Just a thought....

It's like holding my daughter's hand to a hot element till it smolders, and then saying, "There, you'll learn a valuable lesson now!"  She would have learned all she needed to know about a hot stove in a much less harsh way with a short touch on her own.  Lesson learned....

  What I want to know is, if one of our Christian friend's children gets sexually abused, tortured, and killed, is any one going to tell them either "God caused it" or "God allowed it"....I know I sure as shiite won't. 
I'm just a simple guy, and I don't claim to understand a lot.  And I have read everything on Ray's site over and over.  I don't get no free will, and I don't get this suffering.  Because according to what I'm hearing, God causes child rape.  I use this examples of children because it is one of the worst things out there.  And it is much harder to fit in with this approach. 

We should be able to question these things without being made to feel like idiots, just like people in the church should be able to question tithing etc.  People are on different levels, and have had more/less revelation from God.  I don't agree with the sarcasm etc. when a person is trully asking and not coming from a "superior" position like they are right and that's it. 

Anyway....I posted this from my heart, knowing I would get scorched somewhat.  I'm not trying to put anyone's ideas down, just wanting some answers to some hard questions.  I don't have the answers....that's why I'm here.   

[LittleBear]

Um, excuse me gentlemen, I hope you don't mind me interupting, but I just wanted to say something to Janice.

Hi there Janice!

I just LOVE how you compared what would happen at the GWTJ with your experience with newborn babies! Some will just need a wipe off, and off they go. So true. Some who are not the elect have gone through much in their experience with God. Perhaps they don't have all the knowledge at this time, but our wonderful heavenly Father is going to deal fairly with them.

Your post came at the right time for me. I was speaking with a friend of mine who's mother passed away recently. Her mother was a churchgoer all her life, and she suffered greatly at the hands of her husband, and also in her physical body. She loved God and turned to Him to help her with all the adversities in her life. God is merciful as well as just.

Love,

Ursula