Suffering

[ez2u]

and why do we suffer.  Why did Jesus have to suffer for the glory set before Him.  I don't like to suffer and I have done alot of it.  Does suffering bring about character?  Or does it scar and deform our personality for life.  I have know adults so brualizes in childhood their minds are weird.  Maybe  mentally ill.  Mentally ill people suffer terribly no one cares about them hardly.  The lepars of the 21st. century.  If God is love then why do we have to suffer.  Why did He suffer.  What is suffering with out the carnal mind?  Peggy

[lilitalienboi16]

and why do we suffer.  Why did Jesus have to suffer for the glory set before Him.  I don't like to suffer and I have done alot of it.  Does suffering bring about character?  Or does it scar and deform our personality for life.  I have know adults so brualizes in childhood their minds are weird.  Maybe  mentally ill.  Mentally ill people suffer terribly no one cares about them hardly.  The lepars of the 21st. century.  If God is love then why do we have to suffer.  Why did He suffer.  What is suffering with out the carnal mind?  Peggy

It's not so much about 'suffering' itself but rathering the experience of it.

Hebrews 12:11 "Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby."

Since the carnal mind is deep seated hatred against God, we need God's grace us to teach us because we on our own will not and do not want to even know God.

Titus 2:11-12 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, [is] Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

It's the way we were created;

"For the creature [and/or creation itself] was MADE subject to VANITY NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of Him [that's God] Who HATH SUBJECTED the same in hope. Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the WHOLE CREATION groans and travails IN PAIN until NOW" (Rom. 8:20-22)!

And we are told that Light shines OUT of darkness.

2 Corinthians 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

I mean this is how i see it, i could be wrong offcourse as always. So to answer as to why we 'suffer' because as ecc. reads 'an EXPERIENCE of evil has God given unto the sons of men to humble them thereby it.'

None of us like to suffer, but compared the goal and the promise we have in Christ, this suffering is but dung! As our good friend paul would say

Suffering doesn't bring about 'character' i believe that is only something God can do, but He brings us to a point where we HATE the very sin we live in, so much that He gives us the power finaly through this hatred for it, to overcome it. The suffering and pain allows us to see the beasts we truly are, rather then bieng blind to it. Offcourse again that is dependant upon God and not 'suffering.' You can suffer all your life and never see the light, but then again you could suffer just alittle and God can snap you out of your deep sleep with His glorious light shinning right in your face.

So in short, i don't believe 'suffering' brings about character, but rather God's power working in us through Christ to change us into His Sons image.

Love in Christ,

Alex

P.S. I could be wrong, feel free to correct me =]

[UncleBeau]

We suffer when we're chastised, but sometimes I suffer when I'm faced with others that are being controlled by "their" carnal mind. What fellowship does light have with darkness? When I am hated by all of mankind (the beast), will I not suffer? The way I see it we're all in this (God's plan) together. Everyone will suffer because everyone has fallen short of the perfection of God. In as much, sin against God and each other causes anyone around or involved to suffer, does it not? 

your friend,

-Beau

[Kat]

Hi ez2u,

This is such a hard thing to understand.  It is so sad to watch someone suffer.  But why would God be putting us through all this, if not for the ultimate good.  I think it's like we can't see the forrest for the trees, as we are in this process or experience.  I hang on to this scripture.

1Cor 2:9  But as it is written:
       "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
       Nor have entered into the heart of man
       The things which God has prepared for those who love Him."

This scripture will include all of humanity, eventually.
Here are a couple of emails on this.

http://bible-truths.com/email6.htm#suffer --------------------------

Why is there suffering and evil? Because God says so? Surely you must have struggled intellectually with this one. I don't expect you to know the details of God's plan and how evil works to fulfill it or even why God chose his methodology but... do YOU ever wonder or are you fulfilled enough by the scriptures to let it be.

Jake

[Ray Replies]

Dear Jake:

It is true that there are many mysteries that we do not understand. And yet, there is much that we do understand, at least in part.

God is GOOD.  What IS good?  How does anyone BECOME GOOD?

Take a very close look at ANY VIRTUE, Jake, and see HOW IT BECAME A VIRTUE! Is "truthfulness" a virtue if everyone always was and always will be "truthful?" No, because there is NOTHING TO COMPARE IT WITH!  Is "patience" a virtue that one can buy at a department store?  Can "patience" be developed and achieved QUICKLY AND WITHOUT DISTRESS?  I think not.

There is nothing, and I mean absolutely NOTHING that we can come to understand as part of our knowledge, that is not understood by how that bit of knowledge CONTRASTS with OTHER pieces of knowledge. Everything that exists is only understood by contrasts.  How does one know what "big" is if he doesn't know what "small" is, and vice-a-versa?  How can we say something is rough if we don't have any concept of smooth?  Up is only up in relation or contrast to down.   Light is contrasted with darkness, etc., etc., etc.

Do you see where this is going?  If we are to appreciate "good," it is essential that we have an experience of "EVIL."  If we are to appreciate (I mean REALLY appreciate) LIFE, then it is essential that we ALL DIE!!!

And so, God in His infinite wisdom, has provided all of these things--we call it CREATION--so that mankind might experience all that is necessary to humble, educate, experience, and appreciate, the wonderful things that God has prepared for us.

All the ugly, evil, and misery of life can be likened to the scaffolding of a building. While creation of the new building is in progress, the scaffolding is an eye-sore, and serves NO PRACTICAL PURPOSE except the actual creation of the building. But, when the beautiful building is completed, we tear down the ugly scaffolding and throw it away--it serves no more useful purpose to our completed building, EVER.  And so we read that even DEATH, the LAST ENEMY, will be ABOLISHED (I Cor. 15:26)!!

I hope this helps your understanding a little better.

Sincerely,
Ray

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1607.0.html ----------

Hello Ray,
>
> I'm an avid reader, and have thanked you before via email - your papers have
> been a HUGE blessing to me!
>
> I've a question, that I'm hoping you've thought about and have an easy
> answer for. It *seems* like you're suggesting that the Lake of Fire is a
> purification process for the unbeliever. It seemed like a great
> explanation - but one thing continually nagging at me is:
>
> It seems to me that no sufferings (perhaps "suffering" is where I go
> astray?) of the sinner can purge his own carnality/sin. That is accomplished
> solely by the sacrifice of Christ. And also, the sinner has been judged at
> the great white throne, so why continue the infliction for the whole of that
> tremendous eon?
>
> If you've not an easy answer, can you at least provide a thought that will
> set me on the right track to find the err of my thinking?
>
> Thanks Brother Ray... blessings to you as you continue writing for us!
>
> Glen Klein

Dear Glen:

Certainly not. If the sacrifice of Jesus cleanses our carnal minds completely, what was the purpose of the apostles suffering most AFTER the crucifixion and resurrection.  And not all tribulation and suffering is to purge sin, but to build character, patience, love, etc. Jesus did not sin. Jesus did not have a carnal mind. Jet Jesus SUFFERED and learned what it was to be obedient BY the things that He suffered. Etc.  The Lake of Fire is part of the Great White Throne Judgment. Some enter the city before others. Some have few lashes and others have many lashes, etc.

God be with you,
Ray

[Rene]

Hi Peggy,

As I grow spiritually, I am becoming more and more fascinated by the reality of what we must go through to ultimately be made into the image of God.  All of life's experiences, both the good and the evil, are part of that process.  I am no where close to understanding the depth of how or why God does things, however, I believe that His ways are perfect in accomplishing His will and purpose.  God knows exactly what it takes to make us into perfect spiritual sons and daughters.  Suffering is apparently part of that process.  However, there is good news!  The suffering is only temporary.  There will be an end to all the pain!

This scripture came to mind when I read your post:

Isaiah 55:8-9  - "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord.  For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts."

Peace and His mercy to you,
Rene'

[ciy]

These are great posts.

I am encouraged in seeing that God is humbling us through suffering and trials. This is a truth that does cut down on the anxiety and stress that comes from different circumstances in our lives.  With just the little head knowledge and understanding God has given me in the last few years, I have been able to get a lift at times when before I would have been a complete babbling idiot. 

I love knowing that I know some sacred secrets of God and that there are still more secrets to uncover.  So I go on in faith believing the revelation I get from God's Word and not believing what I see.  I trust in the fact that Abraham had no idea where he was going when he left civilization and a comfortable life to look for a city not made with hands.  I find it comforting to realize that Joseph had to suffer knowing that his brothers sold him into slavery.  The bible talks about his screams from the pit and then to live with that knowledge for many years in prison not knowing what was in store.  Moses who was learned in all the wisdom of Egypt and a very rich royal position, ran for his life into the wilderness not knowing that it was through trials and years that he would come to have a close relationship with God.  David who got on the rollercoaster life that God causes and had to flee for his life from Saul and spent years in hiding and running from the powerful king.  Paul who left an extremely high position in the world to go into the wilderness for years and then to be beaten, shipwreaked, and left for dead during many trials.  And of course Jesus who suffered through it all for all. 

We should find peace in the fact that Jesus said that we must drink from the cup that he has drunk.  That He is that narrow path and strait gate that leads to salvation.  He is the truth and the way.  He is the Word that we are to eat and drink until we have the mind of Christ.  Until we are spiritually transformed into Him. 

The perfect plan of God.  So perfect few will be faithful til the end because it is a hard teaching, but like Peter said when Jesus asked the twelve if they were going to leave him too like the multitude of other disciples that had been chosen by Jesus.  `Sir, unto whom shall we go? thou hast sayings of life age-during; and we have believed, and we have known, that thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.'

So just always no matter what the situation, always stay just a little bit longer.

CIY

[zvezda]

If we are to appreciate (I mean REALLY appreciate) LIFE, then it is essential that we ALL DIE!!!

I don't quite understand this statement, can anyone elaborate please, thanks in advance.

[carol70]

We have to die to our sins and the carnal desires of the flesh. 

Rom 6:10  For in that He died, He died to sin once; but in that He lives, He lives to God.
Rom 6:11  Likewise count yourselves also to be truly dead to sin, but alive to God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

[seminole]

Don't know if this helps but if you have had a time when your life was on the line, it can make you cherish life more. You know, if you have faced an illness that could be life threatening,accident, etc. It made me think more about how much I do love life and what is really important.
Nole

[iris]

Thank you Carol for a wonderful post.
Those are powerful scriptures.


Iris

[Kat]

If we are to appreciate (I mean REALLY appreciate) LIFE, then it is essential that we ALL DIE!!!

I don't quite understand this statement, can anyone elaborate please, thanks in advance.

We all begin with the carnal flesh, living our 'life' to satisfy our lust.  To really appreciate this life, we need to die to the carnal-fleshly 'life' of this world. 

John 12:24  Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it abides alone; but if it dies, it brings forth much fruit.
v. 25  He who loves his life shall lose it. And he who hates his life in this world shall keep it to life eternal(aions).

When the Holy Spirit is indwelling, the ways of this world are no longer a desire, and we die to the flesh, so to speak, this is a process. 

Rom 8:9  You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Him.
v. 10  But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

John 6:63  It is the Spirit that makes alive, the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit and are life.

Rom 5:21  so that as sin has reigned to death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal(aions) life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Hope this helps 

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[zvezda]

I understand that we need to die to the fleshly life and our sins, I just don't understand why then we will really appreciate this life.

v. 25  He who loves his life shall lose it. And he who hates his life in this world shall keep it to life eternal(aions).

We are supposed to "hate our life in this world", not appreciate it.
Now I am thinking maybe Ray is referring to the spiritual life, we need to die to the fleshly life, then we will appreciate the spiritual life.
Thanks everyone for your help.

[lilitalienboi16]

I understand that we need to die to the fleshly life and our sins, I just don't understand why then we will really appreciate this life.

v. 25  He who loves his life shall lose it. And he who hates his life in this world shall keep it to life eternal(aions).

We are supposed to "hate our life in this world", not appreciate it.
Now I am thinking maybe Ray is referring to the spiritual life, we need to die to the fleshly life, then we will appreciate the spiritual life.
Thanks everyone for your help.

You are right, its about appreciating the life in Christ that will only truly come once we experience the death of this one.

Atleast i think thats it =]

God bless,

Alex

[Kat]

Hi zvezda,

As you said, We are supposed to "hate our life in this world", not appreciate it. Yes that is true, but the key phrase is 'in this world.'  The elect are the only ones that can truely appreciate this statement.  The world does not comprehend that this life, this body of flesh , is the beast!  Those in the world cling to this fleshly life, they fear death, and rightly so, but for the wrong reasons. 
When you receive the Holy Spirit indwelling, this world loses it appeal, and the desires of the flesh fade away.  That is what is meant in Rom 8:9; "You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you."

Luke 16:13  No servant can serve two masters. For either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will hold to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.

The elect do hate their life in this corrupt world, it is just a means to get to the real life in Jesus Christ.

John 11:25  Jesus said to her, I am the Resurrection and the Life! He who believes in Me, though he die, yet he shall live. (This is real life)
v. 26  And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. ( all mankind will be saved and receive immortality)

2Cor 4:11  For we who live are always being delivered to death for Jesus' sake, so that the life of Jesus might also be revealed in our body.

1John 5:20  And we know that the Son of God has come, and He has given us an understanding so that we may know Him who is true. And we are in Him that is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and the everlasting (eonian) life.

Just thought I would add  little more to this 

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[Deborah-Leigh]

To quote Ray's teachings from :http://bible-truths.com/fools.htm

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a grain of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abides alone, but if it dies, it brings forth much fruit.

He that loves his life shall lose it; and he that HATES his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal" (John 12:24-25).

Do we "hate" our lives in this world? Are we "dying" to all the illegal pulls of the flesh? The last thing on earth Christians want to do is DIE. Yet, unless we do die (as a seed put in the earth), we will not be living in the Kingdom of God.

[lilitalienboi16]

Great scripture kat, ty and arcturus also =]

[Kat]

Hi Beloved,

That was really well put 

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[iris]

Beloved,

Thanks for that beautiful post.
It is such an encouragement.
I will be thinking about that package.
Thank you so much for sharing this!


Peace and Love
Iris

[rk12201960]

I really needed that post!
Thanks so much Beloved.


Peace and blessings.
Randy

[YellowStone]

hi all, this is really an interesting topic and I would like to add yet another perspective if I may.

I think the words "suffer" and "suffering" are often used outside their direct meaning. The phrase "I suffered great pain" proves this as does: "He sufferend great hardship". The word means "experience" and it is only man's willingness to link suffering to negativity and pain that the cause the true sense of the word to be lost.

Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time [are] not worthy [to be compared] with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

Is not Paul saying "For I reckon that the negative experiences of this present time [are] not worthy [to be compared] with the glory which shall be revealed in us."

And does he not also say: "worthy [to be compared] with the glory which shall be revealed in us."

We feel pain, wounded hearts, distress, anguish and some more than others. Some suffering is physical and some emotional, we are human and we can feel pain and hurt just as we can love and feel love in return. Many have watched a loved one slowly fade away, or be taken suddenly with out warning. We all "experinence" or suffer this present time, sinner and bible-truther alike.

One thing that I believe one should never do is make a martyr out of suffering. How could one? for it is not the suffering that is important, but what the suffering teaches or reminds us of. Paul had his "Splinter" or "Thorn" not that it would drag him down and hold him fast, but so that he could be strong. He knew well that all came to nothing so long one is focused on God always and completely and cannot be compared with the glory that is to come, nor to the love already given.

There was a gruesome murder involving a girlfrien and gasoline in a nearby town. The guy wasn't responsible and the girl surely suffered. I cannot hope to rationalize this is my mind at all, other to say I have never really suffered at all, if such is the baseline.

Just my thoughts, coments welcome

Love in Christ,
Darren