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Author Topic: Hebrews 9:26  (Read 24773 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

iris

  • Guest
Re: Hebrews 9:26
« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2007, 08:18:05 AM »

Hebrews 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Is this saying that the end of the world started when Christ died?
What are your thoughts on this?


Iris

The Greek word translated "world" is aion, meaning "age." It is also important to notice that the Greek word translated "foundation," katabole, originating from the Greek word kataballo ("to throw down, cast down"), is better translated as "down-casting." In other words, God foreknew the coming of the Messiah before the fall of Adam, the "down-casting" of the kosmos. Christ appeared at the end of the age to suffer at the climax of Israel's history that will lead into a new age with a New Covenant ruled by the Messiah, Jesus.

Are you saying that the old age ended with Jesus' death, or that the old
age is yet to end?

Iris
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chuckt

  • Guest
Re: Hebrews 9:26
« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2007, 09:12:48 AM »

iris.

hello and greetings.

well the death and resurrection of Christ certianly usherd in a new "age" dont yall think?


peace
chuckt
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hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: Hebrews 9:26
« Reply #22 on: July 30, 2007, 10:08:38 AM »

Hello Chuck,

Yes! And a New Covenant too!  ;)

His Peace to you,

Joe
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: Hebrews 9:26
« Reply #23 on: July 30, 2007, 11:01:59 AM »


Hi enarchay,

Quote
God foreknew the coming of the Messiah before the fall of Adam

There was no 'fall of Adam.'  You can read about this in Ray's article, unders the subheading 'THE UNSCRIPTURAL ‘FALL OF MAN’, link below.

http://bible-truths.com/lake15-D.html

Quote
It is important to notice that Paul says the branches cut-off will not be grafted back in unless they repent. If they repent they will be grafted back in. That's a big if, though.

We believe very strongly in the salvation of all here.  There is no 'if.'  When Christ returns, throught the Lake of fire judgment, "the world will learn righteousness."

Col 1:20  And through Him having made peace through the blood of His cross, it pleased the Father to reconcile all things to Himself through Him, whether the things on earth or the things in Heaven.

Isa 26:9  With my soul I have desired You in the night, Yes, by my spirit within me I will seek You early; For when Your judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness."

mercy, peace, and love
Kat


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enarchay

  • Guest
Re: Hebrews 9:26
« Reply #24 on: July 30, 2007, 03:57:03 PM »

Hebrews 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Is this saying that the end of the world started when Christ died?
What are your thoughts on this?


Iris

The Greek word translated "world" is aion, meaning "age." It is also important to notice that the Greek word translated "foundation," katabole, originating from the Greek word kataballo ("to throw down, cast down"), is better translated as "down-casting." In other words, God foreknew the coming of the Messiah before the fall of Adam, the "down-casting" of the kosmos. Christ appeared at the end of the age to suffer at the climax of Israel's history that will lead into a new age with a New Covenant ruled by the Messiah, Jesus.

Are you saying that the old age ended with Jesus' death, or that the old
age is yet to end?

Iris

I would say it ended between the transfer from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant, marked by the destruction of the Temple.
Logged

Kat

  • Guest
Re: Hebrews 9:26
« Reply #25 on: July 30, 2007, 04:21:43 PM »


Hi enarchay,

So it seems to me that you disagree with what Ray teaches at BT, because your points are clearly in opposition to what he teaches. 

One of the rules of the forum is, 'If you seriously disagree with Ray, please email him directly.'

If you do not know what he teaches, then maybe you should read up on it, before you come here to teach.

mercy, peace and love
Kat


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enarchay

  • Guest
Re: Hebrews 9:26
« Reply #26 on: July 30, 2007, 04:23:31 PM »


Hi enarchay,

So it seems to me that you disagree with what Ray teaches at BT, because your points are clearly in opposition to what he teaches. 

One of the rules of the forum is, 'If you seriously disagree with Ray, please email him directly.'

If you do not know what he teaches, then maybe you should read up on it, before you come here to teach.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

I do not completely disagree. You are just interpreting me to disagree.

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hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: Hebrews 9:26
« Reply #27 on: July 30, 2007, 04:23:39 PM »


I would say it ended between the transfer from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant, marked by the destruction of the Temple.



Joh 2:19  Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up.

When Jesus was resurrected from the dead the New Covenant went into effect,

His Peace to you,

Joe


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enarchay

  • Guest
Re: Hebrews 9:26
« Reply #28 on: July 30, 2007, 04:27:00 PM »


I would say it ended between the transfer from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant, marked by the destruction of the Temple.



Joh 2:19  Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up.

When Jesus was resurrected from the dead the New Covenant went into effect,

His Peace to you,

Joe




I believe the age ended and the new age began in steps. Jesus dying and resurrecting, pentecost, and the destruction of Jerusalem all were signs of the end of an evil age and the beginning of a new age.
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lilitalienboi16

  • Guest
Re: Hebrews 9:26
« Reply #29 on: July 30, 2007, 04:27:24 PM »

Quote
There was no 'fall of Adam.'  You can read about this in Ray's article, unders the subheading 'THE UNSCRIPTURAL ‘FALL OF MAN’, link below.

Adam sinned, was kicked out of the garden of Eden, forbidden excess to the tree of life, and brought death to the rest of mankind. That, in my mind, is certainly a "down-casting" of the kosmos. If there was no "down-casting," then why is it said through Adam came death?

Whether God planned for it or not is beside the point.

Quote
We believe very strongly in the salvation of all here.  There is no 'if.'  When Christ returns, throught the Lake of fire judgment, "the world will learn righteousness."


Was the wide road of destruction, the unrepentant remnant of Israel according to the flesh, "saved" from the slaughter of A.D. 70? No. Will they be "saved" through the lake of fire in the future? Perhaps

Quote
Col 1:20  And through Him having made peace through the blood of His cross, it pleased the Father to reconcile all things to Himself through Him, whether the things on earth or the things in Heaven.


Yet "all" humans did not follow the Messiah as Paul wrote that, did they? Many were cut-off, as he says in Romans, from the tree of Israel. You should not take "all" so literally, just as you should not take "every man" in verse 28 literally. Did Paul actually preach to "every" man? The Greek word pas does not necessarily mean "all" or "every" single thing ever created or to be created, but the "whole." The "whole" should be determined by previous and present contexts. For example, if I said, "I ate every cookie," that does not mean I ate every cookie in the world, but every cookie in my own context—every cookie in my house.

My point is not that there is no chance of people being saved through the lake of fire, that is a possibility, but my point is just because "all" things were put in the hand of Christ, does not mean all those things in his hand were going to follow him in the past and present.

As for Isa 26:9, that is speaking of "earthly" judgments, not the great white thrown judgment. You could expand the overall message to the future, but even that is not that wise. Notice, moreover, in Isa 26:11, the fire of God's enemies "devours" them. That kind of defeats relating Isa 26:9 with the lake of fire unless you believe the lake of fire devours the people thrown into it.

Isa 26:9 has nice parallels with the Romans, God's enemies, devouring the unrighteous remnant of Israel.







Offcourse isreal will be saved. Comon nitemare, i thought this was common knowledge for you.

Romans 11:26 "And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:"

When will all isreal be saved?

Ezekiel 16:55 When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

There was never a FALL OF MAN because MAN was NEVER in a position to FALL FROM. He was created of the DUST OF THE EARTH, NAKED [in sin.]

Genesis 2:25 'and they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.'

Revelation 3:17 Because [YOU ARE NOT ASHAMED] thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

Adam and eve were as carnal as anyone gets.

Offcouse God knew that adam and eve would sin, thats why Christ was slain for the sins of the world from the foundation of it. The church would have you believe God had no clue this thing called sin was coming, when in reality Christ had been slain for these very sins before it began.

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

If God will do all that pleases Him, and it pleases Him to save all mankind, why are we upset?

Love to you,

Alex

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hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: Hebrews 9:26
« Reply #30 on: July 30, 2007, 04:31:56 PM »


I would say it ended between the transfer from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant, marked by the destruction of the Temple.



Joh 2:19  Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up.

When Jesus was resurrected from the dead the New Covenant went into effect,

His Peace to you,

Joe




I believe the age ended and the new age began in steps. Jesus dying and resurrecting, pentecost, and the destruction of Jerusalem all were signs of the end of an evil age and the beginning of a new age.

Some scriptural witnesses please?

So then those who were martyred before the literal Temple was destroyed were under the Old Covenant?

This is confusion.

Joe
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enarchay

  • Guest
Re: Hebrews 9:26
« Reply #31 on: July 30, 2007, 04:32:15 PM »

Quote
Offcourse isreal will be saved. Comon nitemare, i thought this was common knowledge for you.

You are missing the fact Paul says unless Israel repents, they will remain cut-off. The "all Israel" consists of the repentant; the ones still a part of the tree, both Jews and Gentiles.

Quote
There was never a FALL OF MAN because MAN was NEVER in a position to FALL FROM. He was created of the DUST OF THE EARTH, NAKED [in sin.]

Sin is the disobeying of a law. God did not say to Adam, "Thou shalt not be naked."

Adam disobeyed God (sinned), then God kicked him out of Eden. That is a fall. Remaining in Eden is the opposite of a fall, being kicked out is a fall.

Quote
Offcouse God knew that adam and eve would sin, thats why Christ was slain for the sins of the world from the foundation of it.
I agree.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2007, 04:34:06 PM by enarchay »
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lilitalienboi16

  • Guest
Re: Hebrews 9:26
« Reply #32 on: July 30, 2007, 04:36:32 PM »

Quote
Offcourse isreal will be saved. Comon nitemare, i thought this was common knowledge for you.

You are missing the fact Paul says unless Israel repents, they will remain cut-off. The "all Israel" consists of the repentant; the ones still a part of the tree, both Jews and Gentiles.

Quote
There was never a FALL OF MAN because MAN was NEVER in a position to FALL FROM. He was created of the DUST OF THE EARTH, NAKED [in sin.]

Sin is the disobeying of a law. God did not say to Adam, "Thou shalt not be naked."

Adam disobeyed God (sinned), then God kicked him out of Eden. That is a fall. Remaining in Eden is the opposite of a fall, being kicked out is a fall.

Quote
Offcouse God knew that adam and eve would sin, thats why Christ was slain for the sins of the world from the foundation of it.
I agree.


Nitemare you are also missing the point that paul says 'ALL ISREAL.'

Does ALL not mean ALL to you?

What causes man to repent nitemare, His free will?

Nitemare, since when does getting kicked out of Eden equate to a FALL? A FALL suggests FALLING FROM A POSITION OF GREATER HEIGHT. Can YOU PROVE man was in a position that was HIGHER prior to bieng kicked out of eden?

Love,

Alex
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enarchay

  • Guest
Re: Hebrews 9:26
« Reply #33 on: July 30, 2007, 04:37:56 PM »


I would say it ended between the transfer from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant, marked by the destruction of the Temple.



Joh 2:19  Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up.

When Jesus was resurrected from the dead the New Covenant went into effect,

His Peace to you,

Joe




I believe the age ended and the new age began in steps. Jesus dying and resurrecting, pentecost, and the destruction of Jerusalem all were signs of the end of an evil age and the beginning of a new age.

Some scriptural witnesses please?

So then those who were martyred before the literal Temple was destroyed were under the Old Covenant?

This is confusion.

Joe

I'm just saying those events were all signs of the beginning of a new age. In the old age, the Israelites worshiped God in a temple, in the new age, the Israelites (Jews + Gentiles) WERE the temple. The destruction of the Temple was a sign that God would and was dwelling among his people in a new and better way.
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Craig

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  • Posts: 4282
  • There are two kinds of cops.The quick and the dead
Re: Hebrews 9:26
« Reply #34 on: July 30, 2007, 04:45:02 PM »

Quote
You are missing the fact Paul says unless Israel repents, they will remain cut-off. The "all Israel" consists of the repentant; the ones still a part of the tree, both Jews and Gentiles.

You are letting a statement of fact become a statement of limitation. 

Let's say I live on an island with one bridge in.  To far to swim, no boats, planes, etc.  No other way to get to me.  I tell you I am going to bring all to this island and they won't get here until they go across my bridge.

I've stated a fact that I will bring all here and also the limitation that they will eventually have to cross the bridge to get there.  But the fact remains, I will bring all here.

Craig
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enarchay

  • Guest
Re: Hebrews 9:26
« Reply #35 on: July 30, 2007, 04:47:33 PM »

Quote
You are missing the fact Paul says unless Israel repents, they will remain cut-off. The "all Israel" consists of the repentant; the ones still a part of the tree, both Jews and Gentiles.

You are letting a statement of fact become a statement of limitation. 

Let's say I live on an island with one bridge in.  To far to swim, no boats, planes, etc.  No other way to get to me.  I tell you I am going to bring all to this island and they won't get here until they go across my bridge.

I've stated a fact that I will bring all here and also the limitation that they will eventually have to cross the bridge to get there.  But the fact remains, I will bring all here.

Craig

But Paul is not talking about "all Israel" according to the flesh. Re-read the entire chapter! Those according to the flesh who disobey God are CUT-OFF FROM ISRAEL. That means they are no longer Israelites, and no longer included in the "all Israel."

Does this mean they will not be saved through the lake of fire? No. It just means they will not be saved from national judgment (A.D. 70) if they continue to walk in disbelief.
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lilitalienboi16

  • Guest
Re: Hebrews 9:26
« Reply #36 on: July 30, 2007, 04:48:03 PM »

Quote
Nitemare you are also missing the point that paul says 'ALL ISREAL.'

But Jews according to the flesh who do not follow the Messiah are no longer part of Israel, they are cut-off. "All Israel" refers to those counted for the seed of Abraham according to faith, not the flesh. You need to read that entire chapter in Romans to see what Imean.

Quote
Does ALL not mean ALL to you?

"All Israel" means all Israel, just in a different way than Israelites could have ever expected.

Quote
Nitemare, since when does getting kicked out of Eden equate to a FALL? A FALL suggests FALLING FROM A POSITION OF GREATER HEIGHT. Can YOU PROVE man was in a position that was HIGHER prior to bieng kicked out of eden?

They were in a higher position. They were in a garden where the lion laid down with the lamb, where peace existed, and where the tree of life remained. If they had not sinned, they would have eaten from the tree of life and lived forever. By sinning, they fell to a lower position: they were forbidden excess to the tree, had to work the end of their lives for food, and women had to give birth in pain.



I know that they are cut off now, but read what paul says;

Romans 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

WHAT SHALL THE RECIEVING OF THEM BE? [You are trying to tell me they will NOT be recieved. THEN THERE IS NO RESSURECTION.]

LIFE FROM THE DEAD.

Romans 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

The very reason we are given grace is because they are in UNBELIEF.

Romans 11:30 as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

I highly suggest nitemare you reconsider what you are thinking.

You have yet to answer my question.

Do they repent because of there own free will?

In Christ,

Alex




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Craig

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  • Posts: 4282
  • There are two kinds of cops.The quick and the dead
Re: Hebrews 9:26
« Reply #37 on: July 30, 2007, 04:48:34 PM »

Quote
The destruction of the Temple was a sign that God would and was dwelling among his people in a new and better way.

I'll give you that could be considered a sign, but the destruction of the temple (Christ) that happened around 38 years earlier was the start of the new age.

Craig
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enarchay

  • Guest
Re: Hebrews 9:26
« Reply #38 on: July 30, 2007, 04:51:08 PM »

Quote
Nitemare you are also missing the point that paul says 'ALL ISREAL.'

But Jews according to the flesh who do not follow the Messiah are no longer part of Israel, they are cut-off. "All Israel" refers to those counted for the seed of Abraham according to faith, not the flesh. You need to read that entire chapter in Romans to see what Imean.

Quote
Does ALL not mean ALL to you?

"All Israel" means all Israel, just in a different way than Israelites could have ever expected.

Quote
Nitemare, since when does getting kicked out of Eden equate to a FALL? A FALL suggests FALLING FROM A POSITION OF GREATER HEIGHT. Can YOU PROVE man was in a position that was HIGHER prior to bieng kicked out of eden?

They were in a higher position. They were in a garden where the lion laid down with the lamb, where peace existed, and where the tree of life remained. If they had not sinned, they would have eaten from the tree of life and lived forever. By sinning, they fell to a lower position: they were forbidden excess to the tree, had to work the end of their lives for food, and women had to give birth in pain.



I know that they are cut off now, but read what paul says;

Romans 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

WHAT SHALL THE RECIEVING OF THEM BE? [You are trying to tell me they will NOT be recieved. THEN THERE IS NO RESSURECTION.]

LIFE FROM THE DEAD.

Romans 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

The very reason we are given grace is because they are in UNBELIEF.

Romans 11:30 as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

I highly suggest nitemare you reconsider what you are thinking.

You have yet to answer my question.

Do they repent because of there own free will?

In Christ,

Alex






Just because I am saying those who do not follow the Messiah are cut-off, does not mean I am saying that one day they will not be, some how, re-grafted in, as the Gentiles were. But that is way future.
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enarchay

  • Guest
Re: Hebrews 9:26
« Reply #39 on: July 30, 2007, 04:51:41 PM »

Quote
The destruction of the Temple was a sign that God would and was dwelling among his people in a new and better way.

I'll give you that could be considered a sign, but the destruction of the temple (Christ) that happened around 38 years earlier was the start of the new age.

Craig

Yeah something like that.
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