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[lilitalienboi16]

Nitemare you are also missing the point that paul says 'ALL ISREAL.'

But Jews according to the flesh who do not follow the Messiah are no longer part of Israel, they are cut-off. "All Israel" refers to those counted for the seed of Abraham according to faith, not the flesh. You need to read that entire chapter in Romans to see what Imean.

Does ALL not mean ALL to you?

"All Israel" means all Israel, just in a different way than Israelites could have ever expected.

Nitemare, since when does getting kicked out of Eden equate to a FALL? A FALL suggests FALLING FROM A POSITION OF GREATER HEIGHT. Can YOU PROVE man was in a position that was HIGHER prior to bieng kicked out of eden?

They were in a higher position. They were in a garden where the lion laid down with the lamb, where peace existed, and where the tree of life remained. If they had not sinned, they would have eaten from the tree of life and lived forever. By sinning, they fell to a lower position: they were forbidden excess to the tree, had to work the end of their lives for food, and women had to give birth in pain.

I know that they are cut off now, but read what paul says;

Romans 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

WHAT SHALL THE RECIEVING OF THEM BE? [You are trying to tell me they will NOT be recieved. THEN THERE IS NO RESSURECTION.]

LIFE FROM THE DEAD.

Romans 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

The very reason we are given grace is because they are in UNBELIEF.

Romans 11:30 as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

I highly suggest nitemare you reconsider what you are thinking.

You have yet to answer my question.

Do they repent because of there own free will?

In Christ,

Alex

Just because I am saying those who do not follow the Messiah are cut-off, does not mean I am saying that one day they will not be, some how, re-grafted in, as the Gentiles were. But that is way future.

Then we are not in any disagreement.

I'm curiouse though, why do you say 'shomehow?'

Love,

Alex

P.S. My apoligies for the misunderstanding =]

[enarchay]

Then we are not in any disagreement.

I'm curiouse though, why do you say 'shomehow?'

Because I'm not exactly sure how it will happen. Lately I've been seeing Universal Salvation and Annihilationism both possibilities, so I do not say which one I believe in more than the other because only God knows in the end, whether there is evidence in the Scriptures or not.

For example, if those thrown into the lake of fire remain alive, and outside the gates of New Jerusalem, then they have hope of being one day incorporated into the city as Gentiles once were incorporated into the New Covenant after the aions of the aions. That is why we see near the end of Revelations it says the leaves that spring out over the city from the trees of life are for the healing of the "nations" (Gentiles--the ones not inside New Jerusalem, most likely).

Yet, we are told the lake of fire is a "second death," and if a "first death" involves being destroyed, then how is the second death any different? Throughout history God has always punished the wicked by destroying them. Why has he suddenly changed his ways of working with mankind?

Both seem possible because of both of those ways of thinking. In the end, I have faith God will do what is right for mankind.

[lilitalienboi16]

Then we are not in any disagreement.

I'm curiouse though, why do you say 'shomehow?'

Because I'm not exactly sure how it will happen. Lately I've been seeing Universal Salvation and Annihilationism both possibilities, so I do not say which one I believe in more than the other because only God knows in the end, whether there is evidence in the Scriptures or not.

For example, if those thrown into the lake of fire remain alive, and outside the gates of New Jerusalem, then they have hope of being one day incorporated into the city as Gentiles once were incorporated into the New Covenant after the aions of the aions. That is why we see near the end of Revelations it says the leaves that spring out over the city from the trees of life are for the healing of the "nations" (Gentiles--the ones not inside New Jerusalem, most likely).

Yet, we are told the lake of fire is a "second death," and if a "first death" involves being destroyed, then how is the second death any different? Throughout history God has always punished the wicked by destroying them. Why has he suddenly changed his ways of working with mankind?

Both seem possible because of both of those ways of thinking. In the end, I have faith God will do what is right for mankind.

WHAT? ANNIHILATIONISM?!

Nitemare, you really need to read what ray has written man. He will put to rest through God's word all these doubts you have in your mind.

Dear brother i pray the Lord guides you to His truths, these questions are all answered in the scriptures.

God will save all men, He will do what He pleases. Take assurance in that. God is far greater then haveing the need to destroy anyone or anything. He created us all for His glory, all of us, He has no need, not one bit, to destroy anyone or anything. That is a discusting though of the carnal mind.

Ray wrote this about ANNHILATIONISM;

Death, "destruction, perishing, and being LOST" have nothing to do with men's final destiny. "Destroy, Perish, and Lost" are all translated in the Greek New Testament from the same one Greek word "apollumi."  And Jesus plained declared that: "For the Son olf Man is come top SAVE that which is LOST [Gk: 'apollumi'=='destroyed, perished lost']"  (Matt. 18:11).

        God be with you,

        Ray

Also this is from one of His articles;

DESTROYED, PERISHED, AND LOST

DESTROYED: Is being destroyed a condition from which there is not salvation? Jesus said,

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him which is able to DESTROY both soul and body in hell [the Greek is "gehenna" NOT hell. It is ‘gehenna fire,’ Mat. 5:22, not ‘hell fire’]" (Matt. 10:28).

Is there no salvation from this "destruction" in gehenna fire? Notice that they are not "eternally lost" in gehenna fire, but they are "DESTROYED" in gehenna fire. Their condition is that of being DESTROYED. This is not a hopeless condition or even our own Lord would have been put into a hopeless condition.

"Jesus answered and said unto them, DESTROY this temple, and in three days I will raise it up ... but He spake of the temple of His BODY" (John 2:19 & 21).

Later they did destroy Jesus Christ and sure enough three days later God SAVED Jesus from that destruction.

Notice what Job said with relation to being "destroyed":

"Thine hands have made me and fashioned me together round about; yet Thou dost DESTROY me" (Job 10:.

Yet Job knew that God would yet save him. In Jeremiah 18 God tells Jeremiah to go down to the Potter’s house and observe him work. Jeremiah sees the potter destroy a marred work in his hand and refashion it into something useful. This we learn is an analogy of how God would "destroy" Judah (Ver. 7), and yet save him in the end. God will refashion all of marred (destroyed) mankind into glorious sons of God!

PERISHED: Can a person perish and still be saved? Of course. Even "righteous" men can perish,

"All things have I seen in the days of my vanity: there is a JUST MAN that PERISHES in his righteousness, and there is a wicked man that prolongs his life in his wickedness" (Ecc. 7:15).

One more,

"The RIGHTEOUS PERISHES, and no man lays it to heart..." (Isa. 57:1).

Perishing is not something that can cut off God’s arm of salvation.

LOST: Can a person sin, be lost, die, and then be saved? Certainly. Let’s look at one of those parables of Jesus that Christendom thinks are easy to understand little stories, when in fact they don’t even begin to understand. You all know the story contained in the parable of the Prodigal son so I won’t read it all, but let me give you the "truth" of this parable.

God is the "Father" in this parable, and the Prodigal is EVERY SON WHO HAS GONE ASTRAY.

"And when he had spent all ... And when he came to himself ... I will arise and go to my father ... I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight ... And am no more worthy to be called thy son ... But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet. And bring hither the fatted calf ... For this my son was DEAD, and is alive again; he was LOST, and is found. And they began to be merry" (Luke 15:14-23).

Hope this helps you in your studies.

Love,

Alex

[josh]

The age old theological question that has remained throughout the ages is:

"Can God create a rock so big that He Himself could not lift it?"

The answer is "Why would He?"

Can anyone give an example of an action within scripture that God made that did not have a purpose?

I can't.

So when the world asks "Can God create a world so evil that He Himself cannot save it (all)?"

I'm forced to answer the same way... "Why would He?"

God's Peace.
Josh

[Harryfeat]

Hey Enarchay,

I was hung up on annihilationism until Ray pointed out some of his articles to read.  My point of hangup was that I couldn't find any scriptural direct reference to where the Lake of Fire would end and that everything throw into the lake would cease to exist like death. 

Alex is correct, Ray has some great scriptural references and interpretations that will probably help you past this like it did for me.

Please spend some time reading Ray's Lake of Fire series.  You will be rewarded.

BTW ....Ray promised an upcoming paper that deals with the "myth" of  reincarnation, in case you are still battling with that issue.

be blessed
feat

[enarchay]

Hey Enarchay,

I was hung up on annihilationism until Ray pointed out some of his articles to read.  My point of hangup was that I couldn't find any scriptural direct reference to where the Lake of Fire would end and that everything throw into the lake would cease to exist like death. 

Alex is correct, Ray has some great scriptural references and interpretations that will probably help you past this like it did for me.

Please spend some time reading Ray's Lake of Fire series.  You will be rewarded.

BTW ....Ray promised an upcoming paper that deals with the "myth" of  reincarnation, in case you are still battling with that issue.

be blessed
feat

I'm definitely not battling with reincarnation. I believe when we die, we're dead.

As for annihilationism, unless you can say that the "second death" does not refer to the first physical death, then it is a very likely doctrine. If we say "second death" relates with a brief separation from God, until their incorporation into New Jerusalem, then not much is separating us from those who teach a doctrine of eternal separation from God. Some would say "second death" refers to death to sin, but this is too far of a stretch, because those thrown into the lake of fire had never died to their flesh in the first place (so it would not be a "second death," but a "first death"). Additionally, throughout the Bible we have God dealing with sin with death: Adam and Eve sin, so God sentences them to an eventually death; when the world becomes sinful, God floods it; when Sodom and Gomorrah becomes corrupt, he rains fire and brimstone on it; etc. etc. etc. Why is God going to change his ways of dealing with sin with the lake of fire?

Yet, we have a view near the end of Revelation that their are leaves extending from the trees of life for the healing of the nations (the same Greek word translated "Gentile"). So if those outside the gates in the lake of fire remain conscious, and are not destroyed, then we have an image of them eventually being healed. With this view, it is as if they become as the Gentiles once were: they are outside the gates, wanting the crumbs that fall from the table. If we look at the Gentiles, eventually God has mercy and incorporates them into his Covenant. If those outside the gates like Gentiles in the lake of fire are not destroyed, then they will be healed, after the ages of the ages (whenever that is), they will be accepted into New Jerusalem.

All these different and very likely views are reasons for why I’m not decided on either Annihilationism or Universal Salvation. But one thing is for sure: the doctrine of eternal torment is not Biblical.

[hillsbororiver]

That is good advice feat, here is where you might start enarchay;

God IS this lake of fire!

But since it is not literal fire, what does it burn? What does it consume? -- It is the "works of the flesh" that made sinners of those thrown into the lake of fire in the first place. And we shall see from the Scriptures that it is these very works of the flesh that are consumed in this lake of fire. And don’t think for a moment that it is not a most painful and tormenting experience to have one’s carnal mind with all its ungodly passions, thoughts and deeds, burned clean and pure by the consuming fire of God’s Holy Spirit!

God doesn’t change. He will use the same method in the day of judging at the white throne as He uses on US. Although the intensity will get considerably more severe for those who blaspheme till the end.

We are saved by grace through faith (Eph. 2:8). However, that does not purge us from all our filthy thoughts and deeds. No, there is more. There is also a consuming FIRE that God uses on us:

"For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is JESUS CHRIST. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, WOOD, HAY, STUBBLE; Every man’s work shall be made manifest; for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed BY FIRE; and the FIRE shall TRY EVERY MAN’S WORK of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be BURNED, he shall SUFFER LOSS; but [pay close attention to this BIG BUT] BUT HE HIMSELF [the one who had his works burned and consumed in God’s consuming fire] SHALL BE SAVED [What will save him?], yet so AS BY FIRE" (I Cor. 3:11-15)!!!

Ah dear readers, can we begin to understand the workings of God? God consumes with fire, the wood, hay and stubble in our lives. The things that don’t deserve to continue. But he REFINES the gold, silver, and precious stones (those doctrines and godly character traits of God’s spirit that abide the fire). It is figurative language, it is an analogy, it is a parable, it is metaphorical (where one thing is called another thing). Our lives have either qualities of character (which are likened to gold and precious stones, things of value to refine and retain), or gross lacks in character (which are likened to wood, hay, and stubble and which are not worthy to retain or preserve).

And just as real literal fire is used to refine and purify gold and precious metals, so God’s SPIRITUAL FIRE refines and purifies us from our sinful and carnal nature. And likewise, as real literal fire is used to burn up wood and stubble, so God’s all consuming SPIRITUAL FIRE will consume and burn up all the impurities in our life. These things MUST DIE. This purging is the SECOND DEATH. And whether the person God subjects to His consuming fire has many good qualities or none, the person himself shall be purged, purified, and SAVED BY GOD’S ALL-CONSUMING SPIRITUAL FIRE!!! We just read it in God’s Holy Word. How can any deny it? Every person who has ever lived will be subjected to the cleaning fire of God’s spirit.

God is the JUDGE (Rev. 20;12). NOT Satan. This judgment throne is "WHITE" not black! God judges in righteousness.

"He shall judge the world with RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Psalm 96:13)

"Because He [God] hath appointed a day, in the which He will judge the world in RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Acts 17:31)

Next I present a Scripture that many fundamentalists hate. I’ll bet if you attended a fundamentalist church, you never heard a sermon on this verse. We read that God has appointed a day (a period of time) in which He will "JUDGE" the whole world. Revelation 20:10-15 IS THAT DAY OF JUDGMENT! Now we know that those not found in the book of life will be put into FIRE, and they will be TORMENTED. This is certainly part of this judgment. But it is not literal fire. Literal fire burns up physical things and literal fire cannot harm spiritual things. So what does the fire do or accomplish? MUCH!

This judgment in Revelation 20 IS that worldwide judgment spoken of in many prophecies. But is the purpose of this worldwide judgment to torture people by burning their flesh in real fire for all eternity? Is that HOW God judges in "righteousness"? Absolutely not. We just read where God burns up our fleshly WORKS, and this is "tormenting" for sure. But God does not torture our flesh for all eternity. Don’t get me wrong, there will be severe chastisements on those who despise God and His Savior and His Gospel. But out of there ashes will come salvation. Here is another marvelous Scripture which answers what happens to sinning humanity when God JUDGES THE WORLD in righteousness.

"For he [GOD] bringeth down them that dwell on high; the lofty city, he layeth it low, HE LAYETH IT LOW, even to the ground, he bringeth it even to the dust" (Isa. 26:4)

Make no mistake, God will judge the wicked with great severity. However, ALWAYS FOR A BENEVOLENT PURPOSE:

"With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when Thy judgments are in the earth, THE INHABITANTS OF THE WORLD WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Isaiah 26:9)!!

There will come a time when those who only knew how to blaspheme the name of God, will come to LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS. They will not just "hear" of righteousness, no, they will actually "LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS"!

The whole book of Isaiah speaks of judgments on Israel and on the nations. But the end of all these judgments is SALVATION TO ALL. Notice Isa. 45:22-23,

"Look unto me, and BE YE SAVED, ALL THE ENDS OF THE EARTH: for I am God, and there is none else. I have sworn by Myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness [as in, ‘For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; Who WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth,’ I Tim. 2:4] , and shall not return, That unto me EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW, EVERY TONGUE SHALL SWEAR" (See also: Phil. 2: 9-11 & I Cor. 12:3).

God’s words will NOT return empty or void. When God speaks, it will be done. When God wills, it will be done. When God desires, His desires WILL BE DONE:

"Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, MY COUNSEL SHALL STAND, and I WILL DO ALL MY PLEASURE ... I have spoken it, I WILL ALSO BRING IT TO PASS; I HAVE PURPOSED IT, I WILL ALSO DO IT" (Isa. 46:10-11).

Oh the blasphemy of those who teach that God’s most heartfelt desires WILL NOT COME TO PASS, but will utterly fail!!! Jesus Christ is not the potential Savior of the world; He IS THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD!!! HE WILL SAVE THE WORLD!!!

How many self-appointed, bible-thumping, doomsday, fire and brimstone, eternal torture in hell preachers believe these verses in Isaiah? Not one that I know of! Most Christians have never been taught the Scriptures that I am giving you. These things are despised by many who call themselves "Christian." And yet, God’s Word is FULL of such statements of God’s salvation to all.

Read it all here; http://bible-truths.com/lake1.html

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

[hillsbororiver]

"The Lake of Fire!"

Part 1

A Scriptural Journey Through the Lake Burning with Fire and Brimstone,
Which is the SECOND DEATH

[The first installment - Look for new parts until completion]

Some time in the last half of the first century AD, the apostle John (whom Jesus loved) was on the Isle of Patmos when he found himself "in spirit on the Lord’s day." Among his many remarkable visions he saw this:

Revelation 19:20, "And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."

Rev. 20:10, "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

Rev. 20:14-15, "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

Rev. 21:8, "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

Concerning the "Second Death," John also has this to report:

Rev. 2:11, "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death."

Rev. 20:6, "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

And finally this one:

Rev. 14:10, "...and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb."

These are all the Scriptural references in the entire Bible that mention the "lake of fire and the second death."

Theologians and clergymen by the thousands have been telling the world that this lake of fire is little more than an eternal torture chamber. It is the final HELL of eternal separation from God accompanied by unfathomable pain, torture, and despair.

We have been told that there is absolutely no possibility of ever being rescued from this hellhole of suffering and human misery where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth, as real fire barbecues their bodies, and while worms will be eating their flesh. This hideous scene is to continue day and night for trillions of billions of quadrillions of centuries upon centuries--for EVER!

We are told that those who will spend eternity in this prison of pain have themselves chosen to spend eternity there - that God doesn’t send anyone to hell, but that people actually choose, themselves, to go there. Even a fool knows that no person would ever choose such a fate, but theologians must somehow get God off of the hook of responsibility, for surely this place exists and will continue to exist for eternity they assure us.

Famous TV preachers like John Hagee tell us that "...every boy and every girl who dies without knowing Jesus Christ spends an eternity in a city where the fire is never quenched and the worm dieth not." And Mr. Hagee adds, "AND IT’S JUSTICE!"

World renowned pastor, educator, and theologian Dr. James Kennedy tells the world that for a man in India who told a lie, and for a man in the Islands who stole chickens by night to feed his family, their sins will put them into the tortures of an eternal hell, even if they never heard of the name of Jesus Christ their only possible Savior. And Dr. Kennedy adds, "HELL IS FAIR!"

Does the Word of God actually and literally teach such a hellhole of eternal torture in fire from which there is no redemption ever? Don’t be too sure till you have read this paper and compared it with Scripture. That the Scriptures do speak of a "lake of fire which is the second death" there is no denial. However:

What is it?
 
Where is ?
 
When is it?
 
Why is it?
 
Who will go there?
 
Is it an actual place?
 
And How long will it last?
 
What actually takes place in this lake of fire which is the second death?
 
Is John’s vision to be taken literally?
 
Does this lake of fire and second death serve no purpose other than to vent God’s frustration and vengeance on most of humanity which He Himself created?
 
Would a loving God really create billions and billions of people which He knew in advance He would torture for all eternity?
 
If ninety to ninety-five percent (a ballpark statistic used by many theologians) of humanity is destined for this atrocious destiny, how could any sane person worship a god who would design and carry out such a vile and eternal nightmare on so many billions of helpless and weak creatures?
The Scriptures answer all of these questions, and the answers are not even in the same universe with what has been popularly taught by theologians.

Some have even taught that God and His Saints will actually derive happiness and pleasure from this fabled eternal torture and misfortune of the majority of all humanity who has ever lived.

Men are bold and audacious in how they characterize the very nature of God Almighty. I heard just tonight on one of the major news channels that Saddam Hussein enjoys his leisure by watching videos of men being tortured! Most of us shudder at the very thought of anything so satanic and evil. And yet ... and YET, many theologians (and Christian lay members as well) would put God Almighty and our Lord Jesus Christ in the base company of such depraved minds! God have mercy on them all; they know not what they say!

FIVE GENERAL SCENARIOS

Let’s look at five general possibilities for the interpretation of this lake of fire and second death.

1 The teaching comprising the largest number of adherents (Christian Fundamentalists) state that the lake of fire is indeed literal fire, but that the second death part is figurative or symbolic seeing that its victims never actually become literally dead or even unconscious, but rather they interpret this second death as separation from God.

Their explanation of their belief, however, contradicts the idea that the lake of fire is literal. They teach that the lake of fire is literal fire that burns like real fire, but they then contradict the literalness of this fire by teaching that it doesn’t actually burn up anything: It just causes INSANE PAIN. But really, can a fire that doesn’t actually burn up physical, material things, be called a literal fire? And although I’ve heard many state that this metaphor is literal, this group certainly denies the literalness of the second death because they don’t believe they ever die and loose consciousness.

It is a physiological impossibility for a literal fire to cause pain on the nervous system of a person and yet never actually kill them and burn them up. Furthermore, real fire does not cause symbolic or figurative death--real fire causes real death.
 
2 Others (as the Jehovah's Witnesses) teach that both the lake of fire and the the second death are symbolic and not literal. They believe that this metaphor is a "word picture" that does not represent a place or condition of literal torment in literal fire.  However, they believe that it does picture or  represent the total annihilation of all those who are judged and are not granted salvation.

This teaching is certainly billions of times more merciful than the Christian fundamentalist theory, however, it too is unscriptural as we shall see. Not to mention the fact that it would prove our heavenly Father either unable or unwilling to save most of His own children.

What kind of an eternal example would that be for those who are saved? Does God really teach us to "train up a child in the way that he should go and when he is old he will not depart from it" (Prov. 22:6), but that God Himself is incapable of training His children in the way that they should go and that most of them WILL DEPART FROM IT?

Does God really teach us to "LOVE OUR ENEMIES" while God Himself "HATES OUR LOVED ONES" by destroying most of them for all eternity? This teaching is also blasphemous.
 
3 Still others teach that the "lake of fire" is figurative, but that the "fire" part of the symbolic phrase "lake of fire" is literal fire which will burn up its victims. So they interpret this as a symbolic "lake of fire" which is made up of a literal lake and literal fire. And that the second death is literal death so that its victims will be killed by this literal fire in a literal lake, which then becomes a symbolic "lake OF fire."

However, this group has a unique twist to their teaching. They believe that when the victims are thrown into the lake of fire, they have already gone through the white throne judgment and have turned to God, are now righteous, have accepted Christ as their Lord, but they must die a second time anyway. Why? I don’t know!! I am at a loss as to how Rev. 21:8 would fit into this theory,

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, SHALL HAVE THEIR PART in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death."

They don’t sound too converted to me at this point in time when they enter the lake of fire.

This group then believes that at the consummation of the ages (just as they have died a second time), they will be resurrected a second time, but this time to immortality and life with God in His Family. Though maybe not quite as blasphemous, this teaching is still unscriptural and foolish.
 
4 I know of no group who teaches that the lake of fire is figurative, but that the second death is literal. Such a doctrine would be akin to literally drowning in symbolic water.
 
5 And so that leaves one more combination, and that is that the lake of fire is figurative or symbolic and that the second death is also figurative or symbolic. I am one of a very tiny group who is of this latter persuasion.

It is the only way that these Scriptures on the lake of fire and the second death will harmonize and not contradict the rest of God’s Word. Furthermore, God plainly tells us in chapter one, verse one, that an angel "signified" this whole "Revelation of Jesus Christ" contained in this book. He "SYMBOLIZED" it, for that is what "signifies" means--to make known by signs, and signs are symbols. Therefore it can’t be literal.
 
http://bible-truths.com/lake1.html

[Harryfeat]

Hey Enarchay,

Your arguments supporting annihilation are very similar to what mine were.  I spent a great deal of time weighing those kinds against what I read in LOF series and other articles at Ray's site.  I can only strongly recommend you study what he has to say on your own. 

You seem to be well acquainted with scripture so it is all the more reason to see how Ray puts it together.

It took me a great deal to give up what I felt was the most accurate view.  I don't any more.  I have to agree with you on one point though. It more believable when compared to eternal torment.


One of the things I couldn't come to grips with in your scenario is the OT God killing flesh that had become corrupted as in Noah and S&G as compared with your expectation that God will destroy the resurrected bodies [incorruptible] He just created.  For me,  it doesn't seem to fit the pattern you put together.

Your post brought back a lot of memories of when I was dealing with these issues.  Ray's site helped me immensely in getting a different perspective on the issues.

be blessed
feat

OOPS I was posting this while Joe posted. Great post Joe.  It says so much more and gives a starting place here.  Thanks Joe

[Kat]

Hi enarchay,

I have brought up a few of Ray's email on judgment, to add to what Joe brought up, I hope it helps.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4075.0.html ------------------------------

    Dear Brett:  "Judgment" means "to set things RIGHT." This can be done by acquittal or by sentencing. We, "the house of God" are being judged NOW (I Pet. 4:17). Jesus is our Judge.  We are judged for every word we think, every thing we say, and every deed we do.  There are many physical, social, financial, mental, psychological, and spiritual ways in which this is accomplished.  If God is calling you to be one of His chosen Elect, then what you call "life" IS THAT JUDGMENT.  We are not solely judged for what we do WRONG, but we are judged by being made to live in a world of persecution for doing RIGHT.  But I cannot elaborate on all the ways that this is done in detail. Jesus uses JUDGMENT, THE COUNCIL, GEHENNA FIRE, AND PRISON to Judge His disciples (Matt. 5:21-30). See also Isaiah 26:9.
    
    It will take me nearly a hundred pages to discuss this judging. I am presently doing this in my "HELL" series. Part D-2 will be posted this weekend. There is much information regarding judging in these upcoming Installments. It is far too much to cover in emails, and the more emails I answer, the less time I have to write the answers in my "Lake of Fire" series. Hope you understand.

    God be with you,
    Ray

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4459.0.html ---------------------------
      
        True, we have the statement: "NOW is the judgment of this world..." (John 12:31).
        
        But then we also have: "Because He has appointed a day in the which He WILL JUDGE [future tense, not NOW]  the world..." (Acts 17:31).
        
        A contradictions? No, not really. We first have to understand that there have always been "Judgments" of God throughout the history of mankind. Adam and Eve were judged, then Cain, then Noah's flood, Babel, Israel, Judah, etc.  Unfortunately, translating and interpreting are not easy endeavors.  Frequently the Hebrew or Greek will use but one word that has numerous English equivalents. And contrariwise, frequently the Hebrew or Greek will have numerous words for which the English Language has but one. We have a similar situation in this apparent contradiction.
        
        In John 12:31 we are told that "NOW is the JUDGMENT [Gk: 'krisis'--tribunal, justice, condemnation] of this WORLD [Gk: 'kosmos--orderly arrangement, the world, in a wide or NARROW sense,' Strong's #2889]."
        
        Now Acts 17:31, "Because He has appointed a day in the which He WILL JUDGE [Gk: 'krino--try, condemn, punish'] the WORLD [Gk: 'oikoueme--the land, the GLOBE] in righteousness."
        
        As you can see, both the words for "judge" and "world" are different in both verses. Concordant translates Acts 17:31, "the INHABITED EARTH," as does Rotherham's  Version, "the INHABITABLE EARTH." The Emphatic Diaglott has "judge the INHABITABLE."
        
        After Jesus' statement in John's gospel, it was but a short time that God judged Jerusalem and Palestine by having them utterly destroyed, but this was not the judgment of Acts 17:31 in which the WHOLE INHABITED GLOBE of planet earth will be judged.
        Hope this helps yours understanding.

        God be with you,
        Ray

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3572.0.html --------------------------------

  Dear Victor:
    Hitler, Saddam and his sons, and people like John Hagee and Dr. Kennedy who gloat over billions being tortured for all eternity, and many more just like them, will be Judged in the VERY SAME WAY THAT THEY JUDGED OTHERS (Matt. 7:1-2).  Their OWN SINS, will "TORMENT them" beyond comprehension, "in the PRESENCE of the Lamb" (Rev. 14:10), when God purges their evil consciences with His spiritual "CONSUMING FIRE" (Heb. 12:29).

    God be with you,
    Ray
  
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1971.0.html --------------------------------

Dear Shane:
No, God is not "unfair."  You are still looking at the lake of fire as some kind of a dungion of torture in real fire. It is JUDGMENT, not solely punishment. And Jesus plainly has told us that it is according to the magnitude of one's crimes. "Many stripes versus few stripes."
 
We too go through the fire of God's spiritual judgment:  Jugement is upon the house of God NOW (I Pet. 4:17 and Heb. 12:29).  It isn't pleasant, but it is not total torture either.  There are two aspects of Judgment:  [1] We must be purged of our old carnal sinful attitudes, and [2] we must then grow spiritually by godly living and produce spiritual fruit (Gal. 5:22-25).
 
The Church only partially sees the need for these in those called in this life, but is totally blind to the fact that Judgment produces the same thing in the Resurrection to Judgment.  They think that "grace" is merely a noun that does it all for us rather than grace being a verb that does it all  IN us and THROUGH us (by the Spirit of Jesus Christ and His sacrifice on the cross). God is ABLE to make us holy and righteous through His work in us and He is likewise able to do the same for the rest of humanity in Judgment.  We blaspheme if we suggest that God either does not want to save humanity or that He is unable.

God be with you,
Ray
 

[enarchay]

"For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is JESUS CHRIST. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, WOOD, HAY, STUBBLE; Every man’s work shall be made manifest; for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed BY FIRE; and the FIRE shall TRY EVERY MAN’S WORK of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be BURNED, he shall SUFFER LOSS; but [pay close attention to this BIG BUT] BUT HE HIMSELF [the one who had his works burned and consumed in God’s consuming fire] SHALL BE SAVED [What will save him?], yet so AS BY FIRE" (I Cor. 3:11-15)!!!

That is referring to the works of Christians. The lowest layer of the foundation is Christ, and then what you build upon that foundation are the things that will be judged. Non-Christians do not build upon the foundation of Christ, but upon another foundation.

Notice:

1Co 3:10  According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

The ones that build upon the foundation are the ones who accept Jesus as the Messiah. The foundation that Paul layed was the Gospel. However, there were people who denied the foundation, and thus became cut-off from the tree of Israel.

Those who do not build upon the Messiah build upon their own sins:

Gal 2:18  For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

Christians destroy the foundation of sin, and lay their works upon a new foundation, the Messiah.

What happens to those who do not lay their works upon the foundation of the Gospel? Look to Malachi:

Mal 4:1  For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

The wicked become the stubble. The stubble are not the works of the wicked, unlike the stubble of Christians that represents their works. Those that "do wickedly, shall be stubble," not "the works of those who do wickedly, shall be stubble." That means the wicked, not their works, are burned up so they are left neither root nor branch (they are destroyed). Yet, the ones who follow the Messiah, represented by silver, are purged and saved. This, however, in my opinion, does not refer to the lake of fire, but to the national judgment of gehenna fulfilled in A.D. 70. The unrepentant of Israel were slain by the very sword they lived by, whereas the nation of God's true people, the ones counted for the seed of Abraham according to faith, the Elect, were saved from this national judgment, for they listened to Christ and fled to the mountains (Mar 13:14). The gates of Hades never prevailed against the Church, the silver that God purified.

With all that said, it is not contextually wise to quote those passages as proof for Universal Salvation. Rather, those passages refer to the judgments those in Christ receive for their works in this life and perhaps in the future after resurrection. Remember Christians suffer in the present so they will be made strong in weakness (i.e. 2Co 12:9).

This purging is the SECOND DEATH.

What was the first death? Were those thrown into the lake of fire purged in a first death?

You did not address any of my issues with the phrase "second death."

P.S. I'm not advocating Annihilationism, but reading the Scriptures in their propper (and often historical) contexts.

[enarchay]

Hey Enarchay,

Your arguments supporting annihilation are very similar to what mine were.  I spent a great deal of time weighing those kinds against what I read in LOF series and other articles at Ray's site.  I can only strongly recommend you study what he has to say on your own. 

You seem to be well acquainted with scripture so it is all the more reason to see how Ray puts it together.

It took me a great deal to give up what I felt was the most accurate view.  I don't any more.  I have to agree with you on one point though. It more believable when compared to eternal torment.


One of the things I couldn't come to grips with in your scenario is the OT God killing flesh that had become corrupted as in Noah and S&G as compared with your expectation that God will destroy the resurrected bodies [incorruptible] He just created.  For me,  it doesn't seem to fit the pattern you put together.

Your post brought back a lot of memories of when I was dealing with these issues.  Ray's site helped me immensely in getting a different perspective on the issues.

be blessed
feat

OOPS I was posting this while Joe posted. Great post Joe.  It says so much more and gives a starting place here.  Thanks Joe

Yeah that's another reason why UR is a good possibility: Why would God resurrect their bodies just to kill them again?

[hillsbororiver]

What was the first death? Were those thrown into the lake of fire purged in a first death?

You did not address any of my issues with the phrase "second death."

P.S. I'm not advocating Annihilationism, but reading the Scriptures in their propper (and often historical) contexts.

This is the first death, the one all men experience;

Heb 9:27  And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

This is the second;

Rev 21:8  But the fearful, and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and whoremongers and sorcerers and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

For what purpose? To what ultimate destiny?

1Co 3:15  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Please read the articles,

Joe

 

[enarchay]

What was the first death? Were those thrown into the lake of fire purged in a first death?

You did not address any of my issues with the phrase "second death."

P.S. I'm not advocating Annihilationism, but reading the Scriptures in their propper (and often historical) contexts.

This is the first death, the one all men experience;

Heb 9:27  And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

This is the second;

Rev 21:8  But the fearful, and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and whoremongers and sorcerers and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

For what purpose? To what ultimate destiny?

1Co 3:15  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Please read the articles,

Joe

 

What is the first death all experience like and how is the second death in any way similar to it?

[Kat]

Hi enarchay,

All go throught a physical death.

All will also go throught a death to the carnal flesh, this is the judgment on the elect now.  Later in the Lake of fire, for the rest of humanity.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[hillsbororiver]

The first is a physical death, the second is a spiritual death, the purging and refining of the carnal mind, having  carnal thoughts and desires burned out and being aligned with His Spiritual Mind.

We can see this is a spiritual event, that the second death is not the same as the first (physical) death.

Remember the principle, first the natural (physical) then that which is spiritual?

1Co 15:46  Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

I hope this helps, but I still think you should spend some time humbly and prayerfully reading the articles and if you see error present the scriptural witnesses. This will be my last post on this subject.

Joe

[enarchay]

Hi enarchay,

All go throught a physical death.

All will also go throught a death to the carnal flesh, this is the judgment on the elect now.  Later in the Lake of fire, for the rest of humanity.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

But if those thrown into the lake of fire did not experience death to their carnal flesh before they died, then how can the lake of fire be considered a "second death?" "Second" implies that they have already experienced the "first," yet those thrown into the lake of fire never experienced a "first" death to the flesh. "Second death" must mean something else. Can we imply the two deaths are completely different in nature? If so, then why did John draw a comparison between the two deaths by use of the word "second."

How do we know John is not employing the phrase "second death" to refer to a second spiritual death (that all experience through sin)--a separation from God?