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Hebrews 9:26
lilitalienboi16:
--- Quote from: enarchay on July 30, 2007, 01:51:08 PM ---
--- Quote from: lilitalienboi16 on July 30, 2007, 01:48:03 PM ---
--- Quote from: enarchay on July 30, 2007, 01:41:22 PM ---
--- Quote ---Nitemare you are also missing the point that paul says 'ALL ISREAL.'
--- End quote ---
But Jews according to the flesh who do not follow the Messiah are no longer part of Israel, they are cut-off. "All Israel" refers to those counted for the seed of Abraham according to faith, not the flesh. You need to read that entire chapter in Romans to see what Imean.
--- Quote ---Does ALL not mean ALL to you?
--- End quote ---
"All Israel" means all Israel, just in a different way than Israelites could have ever expected.
--- Quote ---Nitemare, since when does getting kicked out of Eden equate to a FALL? A FALL suggests FALLING FROM A POSITION OF GREATER HEIGHT. Can YOU PROVE man was in a position that was HIGHER prior to bieng kicked out of eden?
--- End quote ---
They were in a higher position. They were in a garden where the lion laid down with the lamb, where peace existed, and where the tree of life remained. If they had not sinned, they would have eaten from the tree of life and lived forever. By sinning, they fell to a lower position: they were forbidden excess to the tree, had to work the end of their lives for food, and women had to give birth in pain.
--- End quote ---
I know that they are cut off now, but read what paul says;
Romans 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
WHAT SHALL THE RECIEVING OF THEM BE? [You are trying to tell me they will NOT be recieved. THEN THERE IS NO RESSURECTION.]
LIFE FROM THE DEAD.
Romans 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
The very reason we are given grace is because they are in UNBELIEF.
Romans 11:30 as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
I highly suggest nitemare you reconsider what you are thinking.
You have yet to answer my question.
Do they repent because of there own free will?
In Christ,
Alex
--- End quote ---
Just because I am saying those who do not follow the Messiah are cut-off, does not mean I am saying that one day they will not be, some how, re-grafted in, as the Gentiles were. But that is way future.
--- End quote ---
Then we are not in any disagreement.
I'm curiouse though, why do you say 'shomehow?'
Love,
Alex
P.S. My apoligies for the misunderstanding =]
enarchay:
--- Quote ---Then we are not in any disagreement.
I'm curiouse though, why do you say 'shomehow?'
--- End quote ---
Because I'm not exactly sure how it will happen. Lately I've been seeing Universal Salvation and Annihilationism both possibilities, so I do not say which one I believe in more than the other because only God knows in the end, whether there is evidence in the Scriptures or not.
For example, if those thrown into the lake of fire remain alive, and outside the gates of New Jerusalem, then they have hope of being one day incorporated into the city as Gentiles once were incorporated into the New Covenant after the aions of the aions. That is why we see near the end of Revelations it says the leaves that spring out over the city from the trees of life are for the healing of the "nations" (Gentiles--the ones not inside New Jerusalem, most likely).
Yet, we are told the lake of fire is a "second death," and if a "first death" involves being destroyed, then how is the second death any different? Throughout history God has always punished the wicked by destroying them. Why has he suddenly changed his ways of working with mankind?
Both seem possible because of both of those ways of thinking. In the end, I have faith God will do what is right for mankind.
lilitalienboi16:
--- Quote from: enarchay on July 30, 2007, 02:07:04 PM ---
--- Quote ---Then we are not in any disagreement.
I'm curiouse though, why do you say 'shomehow?'
--- End quote ---
Because I'm not exactly sure how it will happen. Lately I've been seeing Universal Salvation and Annihilationism both possibilities, so I do not say which one I believe in more than the other because only God knows in the end, whether there is evidence in the Scriptures or not.
For example, if those thrown into the lake of fire remain alive, and outside the gates of New Jerusalem, then they have hope of being one day incorporated into the city as Gentiles once were incorporated into the New Covenant after the aions of the aions. That is why we see near the end of Revelations it says the leaves that spring out over the city from the trees of life are for the healing of the "nations" (Gentiles--the ones not inside New Jerusalem, most likely).
Yet, we are told the lake of fire is a "second death," and if a "first death" involves being destroyed, then how is the second death any different? Throughout history God has always punished the wicked by destroying them. Why has he suddenly changed his ways of working with mankind?
Both seem possible because of both of those ways of thinking. In the end, I have faith God will do what is right for mankind.
--- End quote ---
WHAT? ANNIHILATIONISM?!
Nitemare, you really need to read what ray has written man. He will put to rest through God's word all these doubts you have in your mind.
Dear brother i pray the Lord guides you to His truths, these questions are all answered in the scriptures.
God will save all men, He will do what He pleases. Take assurance in that. God is far greater then haveing the need to destroy anyone or anything. He created us all for His glory, all of us, He has no need, not one bit, to destroy anyone or anything. That is a discusting though of the carnal mind.
Ray wrote this about ANNHILATIONISM;
Death, "destruction, perishing, and being LOST" have nothing to do with men's final destiny. "Destroy, Perish, and Lost" are all translated in the Greek New Testament from the same one Greek word "apollumi." And Jesus plained declared that: "For the Son olf Man is come top SAVE that which is LOST [Gk: 'apollumi'=='destroyed, perished lost']" (Matt. 18:11).
God be with you,
Ray
Also this is from one of His articles;
DESTROYED, PERISHED, AND LOST
DESTROYED: Is being destroyed a condition from which there is not salvation? Jesus said,
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him which is able to DESTROY both soul and body in hell [the Greek is "gehenna" NOT hell. It is ‘gehenna fire,’ Mat. 5:22, not ‘hell fire’]" (Matt. 10:28).
Is there no salvation from this "destruction" in gehenna fire? Notice that they are not "eternally lost" in gehenna fire, but they are "DESTROYED" in gehenna fire. Their condition is that of being DESTROYED. This is not a hopeless condition or even our own Lord would have been put into a hopeless condition.
"Jesus answered and said unto them, DESTROY this temple, and in three days I will raise it up ... but He spake of the temple of His BODY" (John 2:19 & 21).
Later they did destroy Jesus Christ and sure enough three days later God SAVED Jesus from that destruction.
Notice what Job said with relation to being "destroyed":
"Thine hands have made me and fashioned me together round about; yet Thou dost DESTROY me" (Job 10:8).
Yet Job knew that God would yet save him. In Jeremiah 18 God tells Jeremiah to go down to the Potter’s house and observe him work. Jeremiah sees the potter destroy a marred work in his hand and refashion it into something useful. This we learn is an analogy of how God would "destroy" Judah (Ver. 7), and yet save him in the end. God will refashion all of marred (destroyed) mankind into glorious sons of God!
PERISHED: Can a person perish and still be saved? Of course. Even "righteous" men can perish,
"All things have I seen in the days of my vanity: there is a JUST MAN that PERISHES in his righteousness, and there is a wicked man that prolongs his life in his wickedness" (Ecc. 7:15).
One more,
"The RIGHTEOUS PERISHES, and no man lays it to heart..." (Isa. 57:1).
Perishing is not something that can cut off God’s arm of salvation.
LOST: Can a person sin, be lost, die, and then be saved? Certainly. Let’s look at one of those parables of Jesus that Christendom thinks are easy to understand little stories, when in fact they don’t even begin to understand. You all know the story contained in the parable of the Prodigal son so I won’t read it all, but let me give you the "truth" of this parable.
God is the "Father" in this parable, and the Prodigal is EVERY SON WHO HAS GONE ASTRAY.
"And when he had spent all ... And when he came to himself ... I will arise and go to my father ... I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight ... And am no more worthy to be called thy son ... But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet. And bring hither the fatted calf ... For this my son was DEAD, and is alive again; he was LOST, and is found. And they began to be merry" (Luke 15:14-23).
Hope this helps you in your studies.
Love,
Alex
josh:
The age old theological question that has remained throughout the ages is:
"Can God create a rock so big that He Himself could not lift it?"
The answer is "Why would He?"
Can anyone give an example of an action within scripture that God made that did not have a purpose?
I can't.
So when the world asks "Can God create a world so evil that He Himself cannot save it (all)?"
I'm forced to answer the same way... "Why would He?"
God's Peace.
Josh
Harryfeat:
Hey Enarchay,
I was hung up on annihilationism until Ray pointed out some of his articles to read. My point of hangup was that I couldn't find any scriptural direct reference to where the Lake of Fire would end and that everything throw into the lake would cease to exist like death.
Alex is correct, Ray has some great scriptural references and interpretations that will probably help you past this like it did for me.
Please spend some time reading Ray's Lake of Fire series. You will be rewarded.
BTW ....Ray promised an upcoming paper that deals with the "myth" of reincarnation, in case you are still battling with that issue.
be blessed
feat
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