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Author Topic: Psalms 51:5  (Read 8934 times)

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Brett

  • Guest
Psalms 51:5
« on: July 30, 2007, 01:28:22 AM »

Hello,

Interesting, but I want to make sure I understand right. Is that verse mean you have sin since the first conceive in your mother's womb?  This verse, to me, is like once conceive and that is include sin, because of the nature of flesh. I am not complain about this verse, no, I just want to understand right, that is all I need. See verse:


Psa 51:5 
"Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and IN SIN DID MY MOTHER CONCEIVE ME (David)."


What you think? If you think I am wrong understand, please say it.

I am deaf person, I know I said that several times, but because deaf can misunderstand of any English sentence. Not just me, many deaf that way, too. Just reminding you .

Thanks!

Brett
« Last Edit: August 19, 2007, 11:43:09 PM by Brett »
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enarchay

  • Guest
Re: Psalms 51:5
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2007, 02:11:07 AM »

Hello,

Interesting, but I want to make sure I understand right. Is that verse mean you have sin since the first conceive in your mother's womb?  This verse, to me, is like once conceive and that is include sin, because of the nature of flesh. I am not complain about this verse, no, I just want to understand right, that is all I need. See verse:


Psa 51:5 
"Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and IN SIN DID MY MOTHER CONCEIVE ME (David)."


What you think? If you think I am wrong understand, please say it.

I am deaf person, I know I said that several times, but because deaf can misunderstand of any English sentence. Not just me, many deaf that way, too. Just reminding you :).

Thanks! :D

Brett


I'm not 100 percent sure, and it indeed should extract further attention, but I would say what David meant was that his mother conceived him while living under the Law imperfectly and that he would inherit the carnal flesh that one day will turn to dust that all humans inherit because of Adam's sin.

The context seems to allude to the Law, especially with David's mentioning of the cleansing of sin (relating to blood sacrifice) in verse 2. David acknowledges his sins in verse 3 and sin is made manifest by the Law (Rom 7:7). The reason David was conceived in sin is because it is impossible for any human to keep the Law perfectly (i.e. Act 15:10). In other words, David's mother was not living under the Law perfectly, and therefore was sinful and conceived David in that very sin. This is why the Israelites required a blood sacrifice: to cleanse them of the sins they committed under the Law.

As for the iniquity, I would say that refers to the corruptibility of the human flesh that all humans inherit. Through Adam, for his sin, came death, something all humans are born to be susceptible to. We are born in iniquity--flesh that one day will fall to the dust of the Earth. Not to mention humans are naturally carnal.
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lilitalienboi16

  • Guest
Re: Psalms 51:5
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2007, 04:55:41 AM »

Hello,

Interesting, but I want to make sure I understand right. Is that verse mean you have sin since the first conceive in your mother's womb?  This verse, to me, is like once conceive and that is include sin, because of the nature of flesh. I am not complain about this verse, no, I just want to understand right, that is all I need. See verse:


Psa 51:5 
"Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and IN SIN DID MY MOTHER CONCEIVE ME (David)."


What you think? If you think I am wrong understand, please say it.

I am deaf person, I know I said that several times, but because deaf can misunderstand of any English sentence. Not just me, many deaf that way, too. Just reminding you :).

Thanks! :D

Brett





I believe ray talks about this. I can't remember where but something about 'Death bieng passed onto all men' and NOT sin.

We inherited death from adam and eve, not sin. We are created subject to vanity [moral weakness].

I believe this verse had something to do with innacurate translation of some sort, i can't remember what was said about it. Perhaps someoen can dig this information up.

I could be wrong offcourse so feel free to correct me.

Love,

Alex
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Brett

  • Guest
Re: Psalms 51:5
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2007, 12:40:17 PM »

Thanks again, Alex

I think I might remember Ray's reply or maybe not, but the scriptures does not confusing me: Rom. 6:23 "The wage of SIN IS DEATH" and Rom. 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and DEATH BY SIN; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned


Also, in Ps. 51:5 is very clear, doesn't it?

It will be interesting to see what other will say (if they will). ;)

Brett


« Last Edit: July 30, 2007, 10:10:05 PM by Brett »
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enarchay

  • Guest
Re: Psalms 51:5
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2007, 04:22:08 PM »

Hello,

Interesting, but I want to make sure I understand right. Is that verse mean you have sin since the first conceive in your mother's womb?  This verse, to me, is like once conceive and that is include sin, because of the nature of flesh. I am not complain about this verse, no, I just want to understand right, that is all I need. See verse:


Psa 51:5 
"Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and IN SIN DID MY MOTHER CONCEIVE ME (David)."


What you think? If you think I am wrong understand, please say it.

I am deaf person, I know I said that several times, but because deaf can misunderstand of any English sentence. Not just me, many deaf that way, too. Just reminding you :).

Thanks! :D

Brett





I believe ray talks about this. I can't remember where but something about 'Death bieng passed onto all men' and NOT sin.

We inherited death from adam and eve, not sin. We are created subject to vanity [moral weakness].

I believe this verse had something to do with innacurate translation of some sort, i can't remember what was said about it. Perhaps someoen can dig this information up.

I could be wrong offcourse so feel free to correct me.

Love,

Alex

I agree. I do not buy into the doctrine of "original sin." We sin on our own. It is the consequences of sin we inherited from Adam.
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lilitalienboi16

  • Guest
Re: Psalms 51:5
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2007, 04:31:48 PM »

Hello,

Interesting, but I want to make sure I understand right. Is that verse mean you have sin since the first conceive in your mother's womb?  This verse, to me, is like once conceive and that is include sin, because of the nature of flesh. I am not complain about this verse, no, I just want to understand right, that is all I need. See verse:


Psa 51:5 
"Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and IN SIN DID MY MOTHER CONCEIVE ME (David)."


What you think? If you think I am wrong understand, please say it.

I am deaf person, I know I said that several times, but because deaf can misunderstand of any English sentence. Not just me, many deaf that way, too. Just reminding you :).

Thanks! :D

Brett





I believe ray talks about this. I can't remember where but something about 'Death bieng passed onto all men' and NOT sin.

We inherited death from adam and eve, not sin. We are created subject to vanity [moral weakness].

I believe this verse had something to do with innacurate translation of some sort, i can't remember what was said about it. Perhaps someoen can dig this information up.

I could be wrong offcourse so feel free to correct me.

Love,

Alex

I agree. I do not buy into the doctrine of "original sin." We sin on our own. It is the consequences of sin we inherited from Adam.

But doesn't paul make it clear that we inherit DEATH, and NOT sin?

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and DEATH BY SIN; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned

It says death.. not sin..

Love,

Alex
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enarchay

  • Guest
Re: Psalms 51:5
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2007, 04:32:58 PM »

Hello,

Interesting, but I want to make sure I understand right. Is that verse mean you have sin since the first conceive in your mother's womb?  This verse, to me, is like once conceive and that is include sin, because of the nature of flesh. I am not complain about this verse, no, I just want to understand right, that is all I need. See verse:


Psa 51:5 
"Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and IN SIN DID MY MOTHER CONCEIVE ME (David)."


What you think? If you think I am wrong understand, please say it.

I am deaf person, I know I said that several times, but because deaf can misunderstand of any English sentence. Not just me, many deaf that way, too. Just reminding you :).

Thanks! :D

Brett





I believe ray talks about this. I can't remember where but something about 'Death bieng passed onto all men' and NOT sin.

We inherited death from adam and eve, not sin. We are created subject to vanity [moral weakness].

I believe this verse had something to do with innacurate translation of some sort, i can't remember what was said about it. Perhaps someoen can dig this information up.

I could be wrong offcourse so feel free to correct me.

Love,

Alex

I agree. I do not buy into the doctrine of "original sin." We sin on our own. It is the consequences of sin we inherited from Adam.

But doesn't paul make it clear that we inherit DEATH, and NOT sin?

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and DEATH BY SIN; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned

It says death.. not sin..

Love,

Alex

I never said I disagreed. Re-read my post.
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Harryfeat

  • Guest
Re: Psalms 51:5
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2007, 07:39:44 PM »


Hey Brett,


(ASV)  Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity; And in sin did my mother conceive me.

(CLV) Behold, I was with depravity when I was travailed in birth, And in sin when my mother conceived me."

(DRB)  (51:7) For behold I was conceived in iniquities; and in sins did my mother conceive me.

(ESV)  Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.


(KJVR)  Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

(Rotherham) Lo! in iniquity, was I brought forth, And, in sin, did my mother conceive me.


I have listed several examples of bible translations for that verse.  The CLV version differs from the rest in that it seems to say the opposite of the rest and what I believe. 

I agree with Ray's teaching on the matter.....that we are not born with sin but the only propensity to do so. 

I too once believed in original sin. Those Catholic nuns can be very persuasive when you are six ;D

be blessed
feat



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enarchay

  • Guest
Re: Psalms 51:5
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2007, 07:42:15 PM »


Hey Brett,


(ASV)  Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity; And in sin did my mother conceive me.

(CLV) Behold, I was with depravity when I was travailed in birth, And in sin when my mother conceived me."

(DRB)  (51:7) For behold I was conceived in iniquities; and in sins did my mother conceive me.

(ESV)  Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.


(KJVR)  Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

(Rotherham) Lo! in iniquity, was I brought forth, And, in sin, did my mother conceive me.


I have listed several examples of bible translations for that verse.  The CLV version differs from the rest in that it seems to say the opposite of the rest and what I believe. 

I agree with Ray's teaching on the matter.....that we are not born with sin but the only propensity to do so. 

I too once believed in original sin. Those Catholic nuns can be very persuasive when you are six ;D

be blessed
feat


I would trust Rotherham over the CLV in this case.

Check: http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/psa51.pdf
« Last Edit: July 30, 2007, 07:47:11 PM by enarchay »
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Brett

  • Guest
Re: Psalms 51:5
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2007, 10:40:38 PM »

Great thread! Pretty deep study scriptures, does it? :) I like it.

Anyway, you know the word "marred"? Correct me if I'm wrong, marred mean imperfect?

Brett :)

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Brett

  • Guest
Re: Psalms 51:5
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2007, 12:58:57 AM »

Hi Alex,

Quote
I believe ray talks about this. I can't remember where but something about 'Death bieng passed onto all men' and NOT sin.

I think I found Ray talked about this. You can click it and see if that is what you mean?

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4951.msg38702.html#msg38702

If so, I do not mean to repeat in my post from Ray again, but I post to different verse like Psalms 51:5 and I would love to learn from one other about this verse.  :)

Brett



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DuluthGA

  • Guest
Re: Psalms 51:5
« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2007, 02:17:48 AM »

I love to learn too, so thank you both Brett and feat on this!!  feat, I've copied and filed your post, very noteworthy!  :)

Joy, Janice
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lilitalienboi16

  • Guest
Re: Psalms 51:5
« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2007, 03:22:56 AM »

Hi Alex,

Quote
I believe ray talks about this. I can't remember where but something about 'Death bieng passed onto all men' and NOT sin.

I think I found Ray talked about this. You can click it and see if that is what you mean?

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4951.msg38702.html#msg38702

If so, I do not mean to repeat in my post from Ray again, but I post to different verse like Psalms 51:5 and I would love to learn from one other about this verse.  :)

Brett





Yes ty brett, i see it now, but for some reason, you guys always see something i don't. As in i never realised the problem that people were having with this verse, until i read it over and over and started creating problems in my mind. Then i went and read rays reply and went, 'oh... okay now i'm back to normal again.'

It seems i create more problems in my mind then i first had when i read the verse to many times trying to see what the problem is.

Does that make sence?

I'm good now though, ty for the post.

Love,

Alex
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Brett

  • Guest
Re: Psalms 51:5
« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2007, 04:13:09 AM »

Hi Alex,

Quote
I believe ray talks about this. I can't remember where but something about 'Death bieng passed onto all men' and NOT sin.

I think I found Ray talked about this. You can click it and see if that is what you mean?

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4951.msg38702.html#msg38702

If so, I do not mean to repeat in my post from Ray again, but I post to different verse like Psalms 51:5 and I would love to learn from one other about this verse.  :)

Brett





Yes ty brett, i see it now, but for some reason, you guys always see something i don't. As in i never realised the problem that people were having with this verse, until i read it over and over and started creating problems in my mind. Then i went and read rays reply and went, 'oh... okay now i'm back to normal again.'

It seems i create more problems in my mind then i first had when i read the verse to many times trying to see what the problem is.

Does that make sence?

I'm good now though, ty for the post.

Love,

Alex

You're welcome.;)

Brett

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Brett

  • Guest
Re: Psalms 51:5
« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2007, 01:26:39 PM »

Great thread! Pretty deep study scriptures, does it? :) I like it.

Anyway, you know the word "marred"? Correct me if I'm wrong, marred mean imperfect?

Brett :)



I'm wondering, do you understand my question? All I'm asking is 'marred' mean imperfect? If it is, I would like to response something I learned but am affraid to say wrong thing, so..... :)

Thanks!

Brett

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