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Author Topic: Commanded  (Read 4078 times)

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sasscell

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Commanded
« on: August 02, 2007, 11:31:38 AM »

Hi guys, this is nothing really deep, just something I saw yesterday and thought was...funny, actually.  We have all this reason givin as to why hell must be and universal salvation must be false:  Love that is not a choice is not really love at all, we must have free will to freely choose to love God or our love is worthless, etc.  I thought this was funny in light of my study yesterday, check it out. 

MARK 12:30  And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind and with all thy stregnth: This is the first COMMANDMENT.

God doesn't give us the choice to love Him, He COMMANDS it!!
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seminole

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Re: Commanded
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2007, 01:01:07 PM »

Are you going to follow that commandment or not?
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ciy

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Re: Commanded
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2007, 01:06:09 PM »

He does not have a choice in the end Nole.  He will either follow it in this age or he will follow it in the age to come.  "Every knee will bow"

Blessed assurance from a God whose mercy endures through the ages.
CIY
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sasscell

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Re: Commanded
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2007, 01:24:34 PM »

You are right seminole, anyone in "churchianity"  would say, " of course we have to choose to obey that command".  Still, they present these arguments against the salvation of all by saying "forced love" is not love.  God, however, doesn't say "will you choose to love me?"  That is how they perceive this COMMAND.  If we love Him or not, He still is COMMANDING it, not asking for it.
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aktikt

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Re: Commanded
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2007, 07:36:23 PM »

Someone on this site or maybe it was Ray, I don't know who, mentioned this about the Commandments.   Instead of commands now, we can see them as promises.  You shall not steal that's a promise you won't be stealing.  You shall not kill... you won't be killing, you shall not covet ... you won't be coveting, you shall love your neighbor as yourself ... that's what you're going to be doing, you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart... that's what you're going to be doing etc.  These commands will one day be a reality for everyone.  What a strange and beautiful world it will be when everyone loves God and their neighbors.  :) 

Josh
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Shakespeare-There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

seminole

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Re: Commanded
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2007, 06:35:20 PM »

I think that is what I would call "heaven"!
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aktikt

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Re: Commanded
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2007, 12:59:24 AM »

Seminole wrote:
Quote
I think that is what I would call "heaven"!

Me, too.  Sounds good.
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Shakespeare-There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

SixFour

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Re: Commanded
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2007, 02:36:05 AM »

sasscell,

Good one. And what about these verses that hit me hard a month or so ago:

Act 17:30  And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now COMMANDETH all men every where to repent:
Act 17:31  Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Whoa 'Nelly!   ;D
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sasscell

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Re: Commanded
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2007, 12:05:32 PM »

Thanks for the responses guys.  Something else occured to me.  We discussed on this thread how people say that these commands are more like invitations to love God, because if God forced it, it would hold no value. (as I type this I see all the more how contradictory and ridiculous this all is)  But, how can something be an invitation if there is a consequence for not doing it?  I.E.  Would you please come to dinner with me? VS EAT EVERYTHING ON YOUR PLATE!!  The former may disappoint, but the latter promises a punishment AND THAT they say is free choice!!  ABSURD ISN'T IT??  Second, does anyone really believe they can love God with all their heart, stregnth, mind and soul ON THEIR OWN, WITHOUT HIM??  Okay, my blood pressure is beginning to rise...Peace!!
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YellowStone

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Re: Commanded
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2007, 01:10:46 PM »

Hi Sasscell,

I really like where you are going with this. :)

You ask: "does anyone really believe they can love God with all their heart, stregnth, mind and soul ON THEIR OWN, WITHOUT HIM??"

And the answer is, Of Course!!  :) And they do, yet let me expalin the futility of such a stance.

Let's create a fictional person. Let's call her Dawn. She is pretty, has red hair, intelligent, sweet but stirn, rather short and has lots of money.

Ok some will love her because of her red hair, others because she can talk about deep things. Others will be attracted to her sweet personlity, while some will love that she stands for what she believes. Perhaps short guys will love her for her height, and many because of her money. Of course, she may be loved for a mixture of her qualities; yet how many will love her, even take the time to know her for all that she is and love "her"?

Most people are attracted to others because they see in them something that appeals; often times over looking a mean streak, or a lazy attitude, etc. They LOVE what the Love ABOUT the person, not the person, neither completely or unconditionally. Does that make sense :)

With this mindset, people love God. I have heard it all: "Of course I love God, he is going to save me right" Or put another way: "If I don't love him, I won't be saved" Others say, I love God, but I hate the way he treats me, or I cannot truly love a God that let's people suffer, but I do love the flowers and the rainbows.

Do you see what such are loving, they are loving the attribute and not the person.

Yet we are told:

Deu 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. 

This is both a commandment and an invatation, because, before one can fully love God, they must first attempt to learn of and build a relationship with God. AND we cannot do this without Help. :) Much needed help!!

Mat 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and [he] to whomsoever the Son will reveal [him].

So without any further a do, unless Christ begins to reveal God and his Spirit begins to make Himself known, it is impossible to truly love God the person or the Spirit. Loving a notion is a poor substitute.

I hope this fits with your understanding,

Much love in Christ, the Lamb.
Darren
« Last Edit: August 06, 2007, 01:24:24 PM by YellowStone »
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sasscell

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Re: Commanded
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2007, 02:13:04 PM »

Thanks Yellowstone.  Let me see if I understand.  It seems like these people paint themselves in quite a corner.  While God would never force them to love Him, They had better find some reason to love Him...or else!!  Maybe an invitation to be forced!!  That's cool, that is exactly what I need!!
« Last Edit: August 06, 2007, 02:17:31 PM by sasscell »
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YellowStone

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Re: Commanded
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2007, 02:24:58 PM »

Great question Sasscell :)

I believe God has created an inert desire to believe in something, which is very much different than the desire to learn the truth :)

I think the concept of: "They had better find some reason to love Him...or else!!" Is self imposed as apposed to be mandated by God. Perhaps this is what you meant and if so, we are in perfect agreement. :)

Love to you in Christ,
Darren
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ciy

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Re: Commanded
« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2007, 02:27:17 PM »

Sasscell
I believe when God drags one to him.  At some point during that dragging process which takes the skin off of one's knees, elbows, bloodies the nose, blacks the eyes, tears off the clothes, and goes on and on until that person opens spiritual eyes and sees who God is, who He really is in all of His fullness.  God made mankind in such a way that at that point whoever that is will love God with all of their heart, soul, mind, body because God is love and only because without this dragging process we see Him through a veil of flesh that must be torn away to see Him clearly.
CIY
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sasscell

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Re: Commanded
« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2007, 02:43:16 PM »

Yellowstone, exactly what I meant.  This is their crazy dicotomy of God woudn't force me so I have to force myself to love a God I don't even know because He'll burn me if I don't.  BUT, that's freewill  So, let me see, rainbows are nice aren't they?  I LOVE rainbows!! Thank you God for rainbows, I love YOU. Anyway, Ciy, you are right, we all start this foolish little way, not then knowing we are being dragged and especially not knowing that even then He is burning out all those foolish notions of what it is to love and serve Him. 
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YellowStone

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Re: Commanded
« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2007, 03:00:52 PM »

Hi Sasscell,

Isn't this the truth, the rainbow is a poor shadow of the creator, but once God opens ones heart and drags onto him, one will never look at a rainbow through the same eyes again. Rainbows will become glorious, for one will see God in every one.

I am sure that God thinks of foolish behaviour as a necessary step in the quest for wisdom, for what is wisdom without first knowing what it is to be a simple fool. Here is a question for you, do you think God thinks badly on those who love him because of the rainbows; more so than those who walk blissfully in stark denial and thank no one or nothing, prefering to give all thanks to nature.

Surely, you and I as well as those with a little truth and those yet totally blind are all walking the same twisted path, struggling with what we have and seaking safety in all that they are given to trust. How different are we, if not for the light of truth, give us by our Father, who loved us before we even knew Him. If not for Him, I would be right back with them. Therefore, I will never judge a fool too harshly, oh fool that I am.

1Cr 3:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.  

I hope this works for you :)

Love in Christ,
Darren

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sasscell

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Re: Commanded
« Reply #15 on: August 06, 2007, 03:24:48 PM »

Oh no, Yellowstone, I don't think badly of them at all, this is why I said we all begin (from our perspective, God drags us!!) our journey's this foolish, niave (SP?) way.  This includes me.  I certainly don't think God looks badly either, as this is an achievement of His when we finally ( in response to Him)  turn to face Him and give Him what we feel He is requireing albeit rags!!  It's kindof like when my kids come to me with birthday gifts.  They have no money, can't get to the store without me to buy me a gift, so they give me something of theirs wrapped in tin foil.  And while the gift is worthless in monetary value, it still means the world to me.
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YellowStone

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Re: Commanded
« Reply #16 on: August 06, 2007, 03:59:37 PM »

Hi Sasscell, :)

I'm sorry for wording my response poorly. I wasn't referring to anyone in particular, just generally. :)

I loved your gift analogy, it fit perfect and yes, such gifts are priceless. Who can imagine what it will be like when we see and fully understand the love God has shown us, and look upon everything as priceless. I try, but sadly, I am clueless. Yet I have hope in Him that the time will come. :)

Thanks for a great discussion :)

Love,
Darren
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Kat

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Re: Commanded
« Reply #17 on: August 06, 2007, 05:42:11 PM »


Hi Darren,


Quote
Do you see what such are loving, they are loving the attribute and not the person.

Yet we are told:

Deu 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. 

This is both a commandment and an invatation, because, before one can fully love God, they must first attempt to learn of and build a relationship with God. AND we cannot do this without Help.  Much needed help!!

On these points you made, how casn you separate a person from there attributes? 

The invitations is what the church teaches God offers all, but WE must except it, this is better know as free will.  And to say, they must first attempt to learn of and build a relationship with God. AND we cannot do this without Help
Not only can we not do this on our own, WE can not take the first step at all.  WE have nothing to do with Him choosing us.  WE do not get help, HE does it all.

John 14:6  Jesus said to him, I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father but by Me.

Phi 2:13  For it is God who works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Just wanted to bring out the point it is ALL of God, WE can do nothing until He works it in us.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat


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YellowStone

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Re: Commanded
« Reply #18 on: August 06, 2007, 09:08:40 PM »

Kat,  I said the following :)

Quote
This is both a commandment and an invatation, because, before one can fully love God, they must first attempt to learn of and build a relationship with God. AND we cannot do this without Help.  Much needed help!!


So perhaps we don't recieve a hand written invitation from God, but we must "Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. " Pro 3:5

But we are to take the "invitation" or step through the doors that God opens to us when he shed His light of truth upon us. Some walk through without question, some hold back for a long time.

Of course we cannot do anything of ourselves. If we could, who would need faith in God nor would we need to trust Him.  To whom do you think I was refering to in the Bold Red text in my Quoted Text.  It is God and He alone. :)

As for seperating the person from their attributes, it is very easy. Please read my post again. For whatever reason, carnal blindness or instructions from God, people see, hear, and believe what "they" want.  UNtil God opens ones eyes and ears. :)

I trust you can believe I was referring to God.

Love in Christ the lamb,
Darren



« Last Edit: August 06, 2007, 09:12:58 PM by YellowStone »
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Kat

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Re: Commanded
« Reply #19 on: August 06, 2007, 10:22:44 PM »


Hi Darren,

Quote
But we are to take the "invitation" or step through the doors that God opens to us when he shed His light of truth upon us. Some walk through without question, some hold back for a long time.

This statment implies to me, that WE have to except this invitation or go through the door.  That WE can hold back  ???

Eph 1:11  in whom also we have been chosen to an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His own will,

To me this says we will come to the truth exactly when He wants us to.  We do make choices, but not without a cause, He causes all things

Pro 16:9  A man's heart plans his way, but Jehovah directs his steps.

This transcript ‘FREE WILL’ IS AN OXYMORON explains this whole concept of the free will myth very well.
Here is the link http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5154.0.html

mercy, peace, and love
Kat


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