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[bambam]

I finally had a long talk with my husband last night about what i have been studying at bibletruths.  It was a good talk and I know my husband loves me, but the talk came about because I told him I was so confused-about so many things.  The more I tried to explain, the more confused I got. 

It all goes back to how I feel about the church I attend.  If everything they teach is wrong than how could God bless their ministry so much.  There are so many wonderful people in our church and our pastor really cares about people.  My husband said to me, that he knows that what he believes is right because of the men who have made an impact on his life who were great examples to him, and also because of the blessings God has given to our church because of the faithfulness of the people in it.  I could not argue with that at all!  I AM confused.

This week we are having Vacation Bible School.  The family that is doing it seem so genuine and really concerned for the lives of kids.  They have given their lives over to all these things thay they hope will lead people to Christ.  They are committed and determined and they aren't just talking, they live it. 

To me, it seems like such a cruel joke for these people to really believe that they are making a serious difference in this world, and one day they will learn they were wrong.  It just doesn't seem right. 

On the other hand, I don't want to believe that God is going to torture people in the lake of fire forever.  And that is the premise that they operate on.  My husband doesn't see it.  He goes right back to, "What are the people who believe what you believe doing to get souls saved?  Where is their fruit?"  I don't know what to say to him. 

And today, I am extremely depressed.  I still don't know what to believe.  To think that all of those dear people are living a lie just doesn't seem right, or fair, or sane.  It seems so cruel.

My husband wants me to talk to our pastor, and I just do not feel comfortable doing that.  I am angry.  I am confused and I just keep thinking, why Lord?  Why is this happening to me.  My emotions are in a whirlwind and I feel like I am going crazy. 

I ask myself, "Have I been decieved by Satan into believing this stuff I have read on bibletruths?"  I feel like I want to believe what I have found, but there are many things I am leaving behind if I do-and they are not bad things necessarily.  I just do not know how to explain all of this, but i need some Godly counsel and I have no idea where to go for that except here. 

I want it to be so plain that I just can't deny it's the truth-but it isn't.  It isn't that easy.  I have been studying for nine months, and my husband says he does not see any fruit in me from all of this studying.  I admit, I have been difficult to live with because of many reasons.  But it does not mean God is not working in me. 

I have so much to do around my house as a wife, mom, and teacher, but I don't want to do anything because my heart is aching.  I am sad, angry, confused-a basic mess.  What am I supposed to do here?  I don't want to parrot the truth from someone else.  I want to know it, believe it in my heart, and give an answer to those who ask.  I can't do that right now. 

If you have no counsel for me, at least I could use your prayers.  It hurts.  And no one understands this kind of pain, at least no one I know personally.  Thank you.  I just don't know what else to do.     

[hillsbororiver]

Hi Bambam,

I finally had a long talk with my husband last night about what i have been studying at bibletruths.  It was a good talk and I know my husband loves me, but the talk came about because I told him I was so confused-about so many things.  The more I tried to explain, the more confused I got.

That happens very frequently, pray, study, have peace in Him. Be assured that when the time is right the Lord will provide the answers.   

It all goes back to how I feel about the church I attend.  If everything they teach is wrong than how could God bless their ministry so much.  There are so many wonderful people in our church and our pastor really cares about people.  My husband said to me, that he knows that what he believes is right because of the men who have made an impact on his life who were great examples to him, and also because of the blessings God has given to our church because of the faithfulness of the people in it.  I could not argue with that at all!  I AM confused.

Remember what Christ said to the Seven churches in Revelation? These Words were not for only those churches at that time but for all churches through this age.

Rev 3:17  Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

And we also have His Words in regard to the Judgment Day;

Mat 7:22  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

As Ray asks in his papers; Who is Jesus addressing here, unbelievers, Muslims, Hindu's? No, He is addressing those who do works in His name, the christian churches. 

This week we are having Vacation Bible School.  The family that is doing it seem so genuine and really concerned for the lives of kids.  They have given their lives over to all these things thay they hope will lead people to Christ.  They are committed and determined and they aren't just talking, they live it.

We do not know what God's ultimate plan for these folks other than to be saved at some point, in this age or the next. But as far as "lead people to Christ" only God does that.

Joh 6:44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up,  at the last day.

To me, it seems like such a cruel joke for these people to really believe that they are making a serious difference in this world, and one day they will learn they were wrong.  It just doesn't seem right.
 
Isa 28:21  For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.
 
On the other hand, I don't want to believe that God is going to torture people in the lake of fire forever.  And that is the premise that they operate on.  My husband doesn't see it.  He goes right back to, "What are the people who believe what you believe doing to get souls saved?  Where is their fruit?"  I don't know what to say to him.

Read this article again Bambam, it should give you some comfort.

http://bible-truths.com/souls.htm

And today, I am extremely depressed.  I still don't know what to believe.  To think that all of those dear people are living a lie just doesn't seem right, or fair, or sane.  It seems so cruel.

Remember at the last Conference Ray spoke about this "bizarre" plan of God? Bizarre to our human reasoning and understanding. (Romans 8:7)

My husband wants me to talk to our pastor, and I just do not feel comfortable doing that.  I am angry.  I am confused and I just keep thinking, why Lord?  Why is this happening to me.  My emotions are in a whirlwind and I feel like I am going crazy.

Welcome to His flock!    

1Pe 4:12  Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:

I ask myself, "Have I been decieved by Satan into believing this stuff I have read on bibletruths?"  I feel like I want to believe what I have found, but there are many things I am leaving behind if I do-and they are not bad things necessarily.  I just do not know how to explain all of this, but i need some Godly counsel and I have no idea where to go for that except here.

Talk with the Lord continually, study and pick up His yolk, you do not have to have all questions answered today, He is with you Sister.

I want it to be so plain that I just can't deny it's the truth-but it isn't.  It isn't that easy.  I have been studying for nine months, and my husband says he does not see any fruit in me from all of this studying.  I admit, I have been difficult to live with because of many reasons.  But it does not mean God is not working in me.

It is not easy, perhaps your husband's blindness extends beyond believing God will torture much of His creation in an eternal hellhole of pain and torture because He is unwilling or unable to save them. 

I have so much to do around my house as a wife, mom, and teacher, but I don't want to do anything because my heart is aching.  I am sad, angry, confused-a basic mess.  What am I supposed to do here?  I don't want to parrot the truth from someone else.  I want to know it, believe it in my heart, and give an answer to those who ask.  I can't do that right now. 

Continue to study and pray, keeping the faith, God works on His time schedule not ours.

If you have no counsel for me, at least I could use your prayers.  It hurts.  And no one understands this kind of pain, at least no one I know personally.  Thank you.  I just don't know what else to do.

You are in my prayers and I am sure I am not alone.

His Peace and Wisdom to you Sister,

Joe      

[hillsbororiver]

CAN YOU ‘WIN’ SOULS FOR CHRIST?

All my life I heard of "winning souls for Jesus." It is taught throughout the whole world of Christendom. Christians are taught they must "witness for Jesus" and in so doing will "win" some souls for Jesus. Many Christians feel a definite need to try and reach people for Jesus before they die. The Christian teaching is that if anyone is not reached and persuaded to accept Jesus as his personal Saviour before he dies, then he will at death immediately go into the pagan Greek hell of hades and be tortured in fire for all eternity. Even after learning many of the Truths of God on bible-truths.com, people continue to ask me how they can fulfill their obligation to witness for Christ and become effective teachers of God’s Truths to their family, neighbors, or fellow parishioners.

Shocking as it might sound to most, the Scriptures know nothing of "winning souls for Jesus." It is a man-made doctrine of the carnal mind.

But isn’t there a Scripture somewhere that speaks of "winning souls?" No, not really.

Once only do we find any words regarding "winning souls" in the King James Bible:

"The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise" (Prov. 11:30).

This verse, however, has absolutely nothing to do with saving the souls of those who believe in Jesus as their Saviour. The Hebrew word kal from which the word winneth was translated, is used hundreds of times in the King James, but only once is it translated into any form of the word "win." It means to, take, bring, fetch, acquire, rescue, etc., but "win" is a poor choice of words. Besides, spiritual salvation through Jesus Christ is not the topic of Proverbs 11:30. Two New Testament Scriptures:

In Phil. 3:8 we read, "…that I may win [Gk: ‘gain’] Christ…" and in I Pet. 3:1, "…they also may… be won [Gk: ‘gained’] by the conversation [conduct] of the wives…" The other dozen times this Greek word kerdaino is used, it is always ‘gain’ or ‘gained.’ Example: "…Lord you delivered unto me two talents: behold, I have gained [Gk: kerdaino] two other talents beside them" (Matt. 25:22).

Why didn’t the King James translate this: "…behold I have WON two other talents…?" Surely even these translators could see the implications of increasing our God-given talents by gambling with them for higher ‘WINNINGS.’

Christians need to get all this gambling terminology out of their heads when it comes to the doctrines of God. Salvation has nothing to do with winning some; loosing some; betting on statistical odds; taking chances, and all such Las Vegas crap table nonsense.

Salvation is not a matter of a first chance or a second chance or any chance. Salvation is "sure."

"SURELY, He Who spares not His own Son, but gives Him up for us all, how shall He NOT, together with Him, also, be graciously granting us ALL? (Rom. 8:32, Concordant Literal New Testament).

GOD PREDETERMINES WHO GETS SAVED AND WHEN

"Now we are aware that God [Who? GOD. Men—ourselves? NO—GOD] is working all together for the good of those who are loving God who are called according to the purpose that, whom He foreknew, He designates beforehand, also, to be conformed to the image of His Son for Him to be Firstborn among many brethren. Now whom He designates beforehand, these He calls also, and whom He calls, these He justifies also; now whom He justifies, these He glorifies also" (Rom. 8:28-30, Concordant Literal New Testament).

It is ALL OF GOD. It is not wrong to tell others of your knowledge of God and His Word. It is not, however, your responsibility to "get people saved." Only God can do that.

It is GOD who does the calling:

"For ye see your calling brethren how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. But God has chosen [Who? ‘GOD’] the weak things of this world to confound the things which are mighty…" (I Cor. 1:26-27).

It is GOD who does the dragging:

"No man can come to me, except the Father which has sent Me, draw him [Gk: ‘drag him’]…" (John 6:44).

It is CHRIST Who chooses from those His Father dragged:

"Ye have not chosen Me, but I HAVE CHOSEN YOU…" (John 15:16).

Eventually this will include all mankind:

"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me" (John 12:32).

And all will respond to God’s judgments and chastisements:

"That at the name of Jesus EVERY knee should bow, of those in heaven, and those in earth, and those under the earth; And that EVERY tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father" (Phil. 2:10-11—See also Isa. 26:9b).

And let’s not forget:

"…no man CAN say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit" (I Cor. 12:3b).

Which is totally contrary to the horrible teachings of such men as John Hagee and Herbert W. Armstrong on this subject. Herbert Armstrong said: "Yes, every knee will bow, and if they don’t GOD WILL BREAK THEIR KNEES." Oh the unscriptural foolishness of carnal—minded men.

But do orthodox Christians believe that these Scriptures mean what they say? Of course not, and that is why they quote Phil. 2:12 "…work out your own salvation with fear and trembling," thinking that this takes Sovereignty away from God and places it back with man and his fabled "free will." Not so. They forget to read the next verse which tells us why we are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling:

"For [‘for’ means ‘because’] it is GOD [Who? Man? NO! ‘GOD’] which works in you both TO WILL AND TO DO of His good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).

http://bible-truths.com/souls.htm

[rk12201960]

Hi Beth,
No matter how much you feel lost or out of control GOD is in CONTROL.  
This is what God feels you need, for what reason I'm not sure.

TRUSTin the LORD thy God with all your heart,soul, and mind.
How do we do this?
Ask in the name of Jesus and our Father will give it to you.

What seems fair or not fair is and idol of the heart. We put our emotions over trust in God.
No matter what Beth, God is in control,you have to trust Him.

We are praying for you.

Gods love, protection and wisdom to you Beth.

Randy
 

[skydreamers]

Hi Beth,

I can see you are going through a lot of turmoil right now and my prayers will be with you.  This journey of having these truths revealed to us is not an easy one.  It sets us apart from almost everyone we know and there will always be someone who will try to make us feel like we've gone off the deep end.

It all goes back to how I feel about the church I attend.  If everything they teach is wrong than how could God bless their ministry so much.  There are so many wonderful people in our church and our pastor really cares about people.  My husband said to me, that he knows that what he believes is right because of the men who have made an impact on his life who were great examples to him, and also because of the blessings God has given to our church because of the faithfulness of the people in it.  I could not argue with that at all!  I AM confused.

I understand your confusion about this.  In the last two weeks I have been visiting with family and I've had the wonderful opportunity to share a little here and there.  Most remarkably my sister in law was more open to consider what I was saying and was asking questions!....but just last year she was more closed to it than a brick wall....it is all in God's timing and hands and I'm not sure where he is going to take it from here.  But my point is, even though she was more open to listen, her concerns centered around me not having a church to go to where I could be involved in "serving" Christ.  She is very involved in her church.   She feels I should go to church for Christian fellowship and if nothing else to witness to the truths I have come to see with people in the church.  Well......most of us here knows how that would turn out and we are just not far enough along in our talks for me to explain to my sister why I couldn't do that. 

My sister is still more in agreement with your husband:

On the other hand, I don't want to believe that God is going to torture people in the lake of fire forever.  And that is the premise that they operate on.  My husband doesn't see it.  He goes right back to, "What are the people who believe what you believe doing to get souls saved?  Where is their fruit?"  I don't know what to say to him.

There is a strong mandate in the church to "get out there and get souls saved".  Well, first of all it is God that saves souls and it is God who does the leading and the drawing.  If we feel that God has lead someone to us and wants to use us to witness then that's awesome, but this just isn't always the case.  I would recommend reading Ray's paper on "Winning Souls for Jesus":

http://bible-truths.com/souls.htm

Beth, I too wish I had more clear answers to all of the concerns you raise.  We are all in a process here of trying to get a deeper vision of what God wants us to know, and this is a struggle.  Perhaps there is some comfort in knowing you are not alone in this struggle...

I look at my sister in law and admire and respect who she is and what she does.  In many ways I feel she is a "better" Christian than I am and she certainly bears more fruit than I...and yet, after two years of studying these truths I continue to be more convinced and convicted that UR is the truth of the scriptures.  Why has God shown this to me and not to her?  Why is she afraid of this truth and I embrace it with joy and peace??  It is a mystery why God chooses who He does.  I am least worthy...that's all I know. 

I am humbled by the things that many people in the world (both within and without the church) are doing to care for people, animals and the planet.  I struggle just to keep my day organized enough that my children are cared for....I struggle just to keep my head out of the clouds and get on with my day so all those menial tasks will finally get done.  I want to just sit at the feet of Jesus and listen, just like Mary, but the pull of the world keeps us in the kitchen just like Martha.

Beth, if you and I are indeed part of the chosen, then we are being judged right now in the flesh because judgment begins at the house of God.  We can embrace the chastening of the Lord knowing He is dealing with us as His children, who He loves.  I seek for the truth in all things because I'd rather have it now than later, Lord willing.   I don't believe in accidents or coincidences.  God has brought you and I here to BT for a reason...and it's for a good and beneficial purpose, whether it's grooming for the chosen or not...it's all meant for our good and I truly believe someday we can look behind us and see with what loving hands the Lord fashioned us into another vessel...

Revelation 1:10-13
I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet......And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned I saw....

It seems we rarely will understand what is happening to us while we are in the midst of the struggle, but down the road, we can turn back and see....

Peace and love to you,
Diana
 



 

[Kat]

Hi Beth,

Maybe you need to step back and look at the big picture.  God is not trying to save all mankind now, as the church teaches.  We are not trying to save 'people's souls' now, only God can bring one to salvation.  

John 6:44  No one can come to Me unless the Father who has sent Me draw him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

We know that God's plan is to save the vast majority of mankind in the Lake of fire. And even though that is going to be a difficult experience, God will recognize a person's works they did on this earth.  So people who are sincere in how they give and do for others, this is their good works, they are building character.  This is not in vain, they will receive a reward.

1Co 3:12  Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
v.13  each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is.
v. 14  If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.
v. 15  If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

God's plan is to only prepare a few now, so they can serve with Christ in bring the rest of mankind to salvation.

1Peter 2:9  But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for possession, so that you might speak of the praises of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

John 15:16  You have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you and ordained you that you should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain; that whatever you shall ask of the Father in My name, He may give it to you.

And what are the fruits of the spirit, to witness and save others now?  NO.

Gal 5:22  But the fruit of the Spirit is: love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith,
v. 23  meekness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

These are all things that come from His Spirit indwelling and being reflected in how we live.  We show this in our everyday life, how we react and deal with everything that comes up.  This is not an easy way of life, it is not a show, our minds must be transformed and renewed to follow Christ's commandments from the heart.

Rom 12:2  And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

Prayer is the key, seek God.  We should pray without ceasing (1Thes 5:17), so to speak, and we should always pray for each other.  You are in my prayers.

2Th 1:11  Therefore we also pray always for you that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of His goodness and the work of faith with power,
v. 12  that the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[dawnnnny]

Hi everyone,

I just need to say how much I appreciate everyone's responses to people when they write in with questions or concerns.  It so much helps me to take what Ray has written and meditate on it as "applied to every day life". 

Beth - I will pray for you.  I've never been a part of a church and I'm finding that now maybe that was a good thing.  But for years I thought there was something wrong with me and I had this desire for fellowship that never was met, yet going to church left me feeling empty.  I had people say "well, you just need to enter in" yet (being shy), this was always difficult for me.  I longed for something for years that I find today maybe wasn't such a bad thing missing from my walk.   

But -- BUT I have felt lonely, so very lonely.  I have a small family and they really don't want to even talk about theology (as I do).  Yet one day, a good internet buddy said something like "there is a blessing in solitude" -- and I've pondered that many times.

If you decide to stay out of church, I would suggest a change in perspective on what you "have left".  Instead of looking at it as something negative (or lonely), look on it as a blessing for a reason.  You can find other things to do (those good works) to help people.  That doesn't have to be done in church. 

The first time I came back here to check responses to my welcome post, there were so many wonderful people that welcomed me in.  It felt like church, like a REAL church.  I hope you can have that same feeling here.   

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hello Beth

PLEASE don't be deceived.

WHO ARE THE ‘FALSE CHRISTS?’

Who are they who almost deceive the VERY ELECT and DECEIVE MANY? We read that they are "false Christs" and "false prophets." But WHO are these false Christs and false prophets? How will we know them? What IDENTIFIES them as false prophets, liars, and deceivers? I WILL MAKE THIS SO SCRIPTURALLY PLAIN THAT A TEN YEAR OLD CAN UNDERSTAND IT!

At this time I will give you just two Scriptures where Jesus gives us the IDENTIFYING SIGNS of the these false teachers, and deceivers:

"MANY will say to me [Jesus] in that day, Lord, Lord [Master, Master], have we not:
 
A: PROPHESIED [taught, preached] in Thy Name [Jesus]?
 
B: In Thy Name [Jesus] have CAST OUT DEVILS [demons]?
 
C: And in Thy Name [Jesus] done MANY WONDERFUL WORKS [miracles]?
 
And then will I profess [plainly, openly, tell them to their face] I NEVER KNEW YOU: DEPART FROM ME YOU THAT WORK INIQUITY [lawlessness]" (Matt. 7:22-23).
  
"For MANY shall come in my name, saying [that], I [Jesus] am Christ, and shall deceive MANY" (Matt. 24:5).
Who are the "MANY" today who, (1) Teach and preach in the name of Jesus Christ? (2) Cast out demons in the name of Jesus Christ? (3) Do MANY (not a few, but many) WONDERFUL WORKS (not evils works, but good and wonderful works), in the name of Jesus Christ? Who? The Russians? The Chinese? The Muslims? The Hindus? The Confucianists? The Buddhists? The Shintoists? The Zoroastrians? The Jews? The QUARTER BILLION Ethnic Religionists? The HUNDRED AND FIFTY MILLION Athiests? Do ANY of these worldwide religions "teach, preach, cast out demons, and do many wonderful works IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST?" No, they don’t!

Well then, WHO ARE THESE "MANY" who do these things?

Do "MANY" of the TWO BILLION CHRISTIANS in the world today, "teach, preach, cast out demons, and do many wonderful works IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST?" Then I would say that we have identified the "many" that Jesus warned us about. It is not enough to preach, teach, heal, and cast out demons in the name of Jesus Christ. One has to also OBEY the commandments and teachings of Jesus Christ. Jesus said that it is the "many" who do good words, but are guilty of "iniquity" which means "lawlessness."

Next, who are the "MANY" today who say that, "Jesus IS THE CHRIST, THE MESSIAH?" No, don’t be deceived; it is not those few who occasionally claim that they themselves are "Jesus the Christ." They don’t deceive the "many." Only some fool would ever be deceived into believing that some carnal idiot really IS the Christ. Besides, there are NOT "many" who make such a claim in the first place.

But there certainly are "MANY" who say and teach that JESUS is the REAL CHRIST! And so it is not only those who "teach and preach and cast out demons and do many wonderful works in the name of Jesus" who are DECEIVING THE MANY, but also there is a large group (many) who teach that "Jesus really IS THE CHRIST" and yet Jesus said it would be these that are also DECEIVING THE MANY!

Millions of Christians have heard these Scriptures quoted all their lives. But, God forbid that they would pause a minute or two to consider WHO REALLY ARE THESE PEOPLE THAT JESUS IS TALKING ABOUT THAT REALLY DO THESE MANY WONDERFUL THINGS AND YET … DECEIVE THE MANY!!

http://bible-truths.com/lake8.html

Be the best Wife and Mother and student of God's Word that you can.

You do not have to teach anyone anything! You do not have to convince or save anyone.

I believe part of your suffering right now is because you are seeing that the many called are unwilling to take up their cross to follow Christ. They would much rather do good works instead. The few that do take up their cross to follow Christ, are separated from the many. This is not a bad thing. It is a miraculous work of God.

Peace be to you and may God bless you in your needs and difficulties at this trying time for you Beth.

Arcturus.

[gmik]

Beth, I cannot add to these wonderful posts to you.  I got blessed reading them.

I will pray for you.  Please know you are not alone in those thoughts.  I know ALOT of people who "love"God and "work" for Him far more than I do.  My son has said the same thing to me like "well, where is your fruit, what are you doing".  This weekend w/ relatives I was a blubbering fool.  I couldn't remember any scriptures and they were saying this bible study we go to and this meeting for this ie...very active in church must equal more holy!! I couldn't wait for them to leave.  I know their whole drive home was probably talking about what nut jobs we are

But when I got back to this forum, aaahhhh, sanity returned. This is the truth.  They just don't know it yet.

I just put my mom in a nursing home.  But look over in Who am I and see Janice as the caregiver for her dad.  But I can't compare the journey we each have been given by God, or feel guilty or remorse.

Reread and hang on to these posts you have been given. We all love you and will pray.  Take a deep breath and say over and over....HE loves me and is Faithful and HE will take care of me.

[pylady]

Hi Beth,

I can understand how you feel.  There are many good people inthe churches.
We have to remember that it serves God's purpose to keep these people in darkness for now.  And He is working within the churches in that He is bringing His chosen ones out of her.

It's difficult and it can be confusing to have a conversation about beliefs.   >:(There is so little common ground between what the churches teach and the REAL TRUTH.  Only God can open up their eyes to see and ears to hear.  I personally, and I think others feel the same, don't bring up the subject.  When I've tried talking about the truths I've learned I found much to my surprise that others weren't so enthralled, not even interested, downright nasty about it!  Imagine that!      But I know something they don't know.  God in time will open even the most stubborn heart, open up even the most blind eyes!  If I remember that it keeps me from being hurt or even embarrassed over their lack of interest.

Don't trouble your heart thinking that some cruel joke is being played upon these people because they believe they are making a difference in this world.  Many of them are doing good works.  And their good works will be remembered by the great Judge in the  WTJ.

It's not the good works that are wrong.  It's the false teachings which blaspheme our Father's character that is wrong.  And they use these "good works" to lend credibility to their false teachings.  The churches think their mandate is to teach the "good news of the kingdom", and they use their good works as a way to reach others.  BUT, they're not really teaching the good news are they?  They're teaching a lie!

Jesus said false worshippers would perform wonderful works. So how can we recognize true worshippers?

John 4:23,24  "...true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth,
                   for the Father seeketh such to worship him.  God is a Spirit, and
                   they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth."

Beth, please continue on your own one-on-one walk with our Lord.  PRAY, PRAY, PRAY, and worship Him in spirit and in truth.  You don't really believe that the God of love cannot and/or will not save His children, do you?  You have been blessed to know the truth.

The one scripture that stands above others when I've been feeling tried and tested has been  Proverbs 3:5,6

      "Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own
        understanding.  In all thy ways acknowledge Him, and He shall
        direct thy paths."

We all want to lean on our own understanding.  But He says don't do it- TRUST IN HIM (even if we don't understand what's happening)  It can feel like freefalling sometimes.  Very frightening.  But after awhile you get to like it!   

I'll pray that God gives you peace, Beth. 

          With Christian Love,

                        Cindy

[Ward]

BamBam:

It all goes back to how I feel about the church I attend.  If everything they teach is wrong than how could God bless their ministry so much.

Could this blessing you mention be nothing more than God's 'Strong Delusion'?

And for this cause, God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:(2Th 2:11 KJV+)

There are so many wonderful people in our church and our pastor really cares about people.

I'm certain this is true.  But do they teach & believe the truth?  What do they really believe? Is it the Truth or church doctrine? 

My husband said to me, that he knows that what he believes is right because of the men who have made an impact on his life who were great examples to him, and also because of the blessings God has given to our church because of the faithfulness of the people in it.  I could not argue with that at all!  I AM confused.

Your husband's statement sounds like it came straight from the mouth of an OT Israelite.  Blessings are not something that Jesus said would be a part of the lives of the 'chosen'.

This week we are having Vacation Bible School.  The family that is doing it seem so genuine and really concerned for the lives of kids.  They have given their lives over to all these things they they hope will lead people to Christ.  They are committed and determined and they aren't just talking, they live it.

But what will this Vacation Bible School be teaching the youth?  Will they be teaching the Truth? 

To me, it seems like such a cruel joke for these people to really believe that they are making a serious difference in this world, and one day they will learn they were wrong.  It just doesn't seem right.

WOW! '... that they are making a serious difference in this world...' I realize that those are not their words, but are yours.  But do they actually believe that 'they are making a serious difference in this world'?  If the answer is yes, then I already have the answer to my previous questions.  Are they teaching the Truth?

On the other hand, I don't want to believe that God is going to torture people in the lake of fire forever.  And that is the premise that they operate on.

Is that the premise that *you* operate on?  Is it the Truth?  Do they teach and believe the Truth?  (Sorry to keep asking that question, but it is the crux of the whole thing.)

My husband doesn't see it.  He goes right back to, "What are the people who believe what you believe doing to get souls saved?  Where is their fruit?"  I don't know what to say to him.

How are we instructed to 'save souls'?  Hmmm... Let's change that question to... Are we instructed to 'save souls'?  Can we 'save souls'? 

'Where is their fruit?' BamBam... You are their/our fruit.  Actually, you are God's fruit.  He is using us all to guide you. We are your examples. You are ours. We don't all go thru the same things.  We don't all make the same mistakes.  But we do all learn from the experiences.  Both ours and those of others. 

And today, I am extremely depressed.  I still don't know what to believe.  To think that all of those dear people are living a lie just doesn't seem right, or fair, or sane.  It seems so cruel.

You do know what you believe...  If you are not completely disgusted by what you are learning here, then you are being given eyes that see, ears that hear, and a heart that that can understand.  This is not a one time thing.  It is the daily bread we/you ask for everytime that you have prayed what is called the 'Lord's Prayer'. 

As to those dear people living a lie...  How do you think Paul felt about Israel?

My husband wants me to talk to our pastor, and I just do not feel comfortable doing that.  I am angry.  I am confused and I just keep thinking, why Lord?  Why is this happening to me.  My emotions are in a whirlwind and I feel like I am going crazy.

The beginning of the 'narrow path' can feel like just what you have described.

I ask myself, "Have I been deceived by Satan into believing this stuff I have read on bibletruths?"

By Satan???  What is Satan able to do?  He is only able to do whatever God allows.  Satan is just a capable as we are. 

I feel like I want to believe what I have found, but there are many things I am leaving behind if I do-and they are not bad things necessarily.  I just do not know how to explain all of this, but i need some Godly counsel and I have no idea where to go for that except here.

Sounds like the young rich man that asked Christ Jesus what do I do to enter the Kingdom?  Keep the commandments.  He said, I'm doing that.  What else?  Give away all that you have, pick up your cross and follow me.  Ouch!!!  He couldn't do that.  Can you?

I want it to be so plain that I just can't deny it's the truth-but it isn't.  It isn't that easy.  I have been studying for nine months, and my husband says he does not see any fruit in me from all of this studying.  I admit, I have been difficult to live with because of many reasons.  But it does not mean God is not working in me.

Now you are sounding like the apostles before they were given to know.  And they walked with Christ Jesus for three years, not just nine months.  And remember that it wasn't 'so plain' even then.  BamBam it will take the rest of your life is this age.

I have so much to do around my house as a wife, mom, and teacher, but I don't want to do anything because my heart is aching.  I am sad, angry, confused-a basic mess.  What am I supposed to do here?  I don't want to parrot the truth from someone else.  I want to know it, believe it in my heart, and give an answer to those who ask.  I can't do that right now.

Your honesty is wonderful!  Don't parrot what you don't understand.  But the fact that you have been studying here for nine months says that you are on the way to knowing it... believing it in your heart.

So what are you supposed to do here?  Pray and Study so that you will be prepared to answer those that ask.  It takes a long time.  Really look into how long it was before Paul went out on his ministry.  It was many years. We tend to think that he got smacked down in the desert and was preaching the next week.  That's not how it was

If you have no counsel for me, at least I could use your prayers.  It hurts.  And no one understands this kind of pain, at least no one I know personally.  Thank you.  I just don't know what else to do.

You have my prayers and those of others here also.  We are here... Fellowship and study with us.  Remember, Man did not invent the technology we are using to communicate here.  Man discovered it!  God created it and it is good for its many many purposes.

Please feel free to ask/share via this open forum or via PM.

\/\/ard

[bambam]

Wow.  I am overwhelmed by all of your counsel.  The scriptures are especially helpful.  I have been reading and studying so much, and still have trouble remembering things!  Just so you know, I appreciate your prayers and concern for my struggle! Thanks so much! 

Blessings,
Beth

[LittleBear]

Hey Beth,

There's nothing I could add to all these wonderful posts. But I will be praying for you. It is a lonely walk we have, and we are misunderstood or ridiculed by just about everyone.

Love,

Ursula

[insanezenmistress]

   I know your pain.


   I also live in this world.


    Your questions are normal, and toward the right path. The point is you can only LIVE what god has you to believe..........the more you resist living the truth according to your understanding of the truth and the more you worry about pleasing men,than to obey god and know him being your goal .........then you will  have more guilt and fear and pain and be open to falling into more error and complanceny. (being chastend and conformed to the image ( and understanding of god).

you must chose to obey god, believe the scripture and live peacibly amoung men. after all, that is what your heart yearns to do ...... your letting your fear control you instead of the truth. and you are hiding behind the words of mens knowledge, verses the way of god's knowledge.


And then these things will fall into place.... all these things will be worked out in gods timing, all you have to do is continue seeking and praying and working out your salvation with Jesus.

Paul tells us, we are to led god be true and every man a liar.

relax........if god was not working in you already, you could never have reached this place of questioning. Trust Him for the answer and the opperation of your life, for he is faithfull and soverien anyway.

Even if they are still trapped in their thinking, you seek not to be, your walk with god is what you need to grow in, and let god grow in thier walk with god, in His timeing. YOU LIVE for god.........

wash dishes, love children, enjoy prayer and study, learn to enjoy the simple acts of living and when asked have your answer.........

be thankfull your a woman.....(lol- we are told to have gentle and quiet meek spirits)


May the Father reach deeper, and grant you understanding and instruction, and be encouraged to relax.........to wait on the lord...........to meditate slowly on these deep truths before forceing them down someone elses throat in your excitment.........

in order that we will be better able to give a good word in season, perhaps god would give them repentence.



thank you for listening, and may bless your Growth

Justine.

[gmik]

Ok Justine, thats how they knew your name. Duh.

Anyway, that was beautifully put and I needed that counsel as well. God Bless.

[DuluthGA]

Thank you Justine and welcome!

I like tune of your song...

Trust Him for the answer and the opperation of your life, for he is faithfull and sovereign anyway.

HO HO! 

I liked listening to you general! 

Have a blessed day!

Janice