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Author Topic: Clean and Unclean Meat !!  (Read 15330 times)

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Sue Creamer

  • Guest
Clean and Unclean Meat !!
« on: August 13, 2007, 03:40:22 PM »

Hi All,

I have been unable to find anything in Ray's emails or articles about clean and unclean meats.  Having
come out of a church that taught it was a sin to eat pork, sea food, etc...I would so like to have some
input into what is correct according to the scriptures.

Thanks!
Sue Ann

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Kat

  • Guest
Re: Clean and Unclean Meat !!
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2007, 04:37:22 PM »

Hi Sue Ann,

I was in WW 15 years, I know well their teaching to not eat unclean meats.  This is man's effort to please God with the physical.  This scripture shows it matters not what we eat.

Mat 15:11  it is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, but what comes out of the mouth; this defiles a person."

Mar 7:18  And he said to them, "Then are you also without understanding? Do you not see that whatever goes into a man from outside cannot defile him,
Mar 7:19  since it enters, not his heart but his stomach, and so passes on?" (Thus he declared all foods clean.) (RSV)

Here is an email, it does not mention unclean meats, but I would think unclean meats is just another physical thing man tries to do to serve God. 

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1520.0.html ------

Dear Mildred:

"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a HOLY DAY, or of the new moon, or of the SABBATH days; which are a shadow of things to come, but the body [Gk: 'substance'--the REAL THING] is the Christ [or 'is the Christ's']" (Col. 2:16-17). See also Heb. 8:5-6 & Heb. 10:1.

We are not obligated under the New Covenant to "keep" any holy days.

God be with you,

Ray     
« Last Edit: August 13, 2007, 04:39:48 PM by Kat »
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Sue Creamer

  • Guest
Re: Clean and Unclean Meat !!
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2007, 04:57:11 PM »

Hi Kat,

I believed this was the case, but questions keep lingering in my mind!!!!  As I cannot reference a bible here at work and can't remember it on my own..I have to put things into my own words.   Does not modern medicine today teach pork is unfit for human consumption?  Where did that come from?  I don't think any of us would eat a mouse or rat, but is there any reference in the scriptures that says it is not a good idea if we were so inclined, even though it is not a sin??  I guess what I am trying to say is what separates the "what is good for us food"  and "that which is not good for us food"...!!!!  I am so sorry if I am not making sense.

Thanks!
Sue Ann
 
 
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jackson

  • Guest
Re: Clean and Unclean Meat !!
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2007, 05:49:30 PM »

Hey Sue Ann,

My take on the "unclean meat" is that it is not really refering to any type of edible or consumable animal.  This, in my estimation, is talking about false profits spreading lies and half-truths.  Often their words sound very good, they'll even very often sprinkle in some Scripture to give their lies an authentic "taste".  But the meat that they are selling is spoiled.

The verses Kat quoated speak the undeniable truth.  If it is from God it is good.  Nothing else really to say.

Oh and have you ever tried rat...I here it's quite good marinated in a little teriaki sauce ;D.  Sorry about that , I couldn't resist ::)

Jackson   
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okjohnson

  • Guest
Re: Clean and Unclean Meat !!
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2007, 06:27:36 PM »

Hi Sue Anne

I think the stumbling here is over old doctrines. I have trouble with the old doctrines quite often that need to be burned up too.

The New Covenant (Christ) replaces the Old Covenant (Law of Moses which was a shadow of Christ).

Here are a couple of verses that might help:

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body [casting the shadow] is of Christ (Col. 2:16-17)

Actually, Jesus changed (rewrote) the ten commandments.
The following verses is one example of this .

Matt. 5:21: You have heard that it was said by them of old time, thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

Verse. 22: "But I say unto you, that whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother Racca (vain fellow) shall be in danger of hell fire."


You might want to read Matthew 5:19-48 to see all of the changes that Jesus made to the commandments.


It is Christ in you that matters.

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sasscell

  • Guest
Re: Clean and Unclean Meat !!
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2007, 06:56:39 PM »

Does God gave us instruction on how to eat (from a health benefits point of view) in His Word??
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: Clean and Unclean Meat !!
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2007, 07:01:15 PM »

Hi Sue Ann,

I'm not aware of anything that says pork is unfit for human consumption.  But I do believe that we have to use good judgment and try to have a healthy diet.  
What is important is the spiritual, not the physical.  
Numerous physical rituals were performed in the early years of the Apostles' ministries until they came to a realization that it is the spirit that matters, not the physical (http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,251.0.html).
But Paul did teach the belivers what they should concern themselves with.

Act 15:19  Wherefore my judgment is, that we trouble not them that from among the Gentiles turn to God;
v. 20  but that we write unto them, that they abstain from the pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from what is strangled, and from blood.

If you don't think it's a good thing to eat certain meats, that is fine for you to abstain from them.  But it is not a necessary thing that we are held to, from the old covenant.  We are under the new covenant and the law is spiritual.

Rom 7:14  For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

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Beloved

  • Guest
Re: Clean and Unclean Meat !!
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2007, 09:11:21 PM »

Pork meat has been implicated with trichinosis (worms that get into muscles and tissue and cause a great deal of pain and even death if heart tissue is involved) in the past but today most pork is not infested with this. Most the food laws were beneficial in the days of unrefrigeration and no antibiotics.

Remember everthing written is also spiritual. The physical things that were not allowed  then...ate off the dead. they were scavengers. They were loaded with bacteria. 

When God was talking about not eating unclean meat he is referring to the heretical doctrine that come from spiritually dead churches.

When Peter was told to eat everything, the square cloth represented the four corners of the earth. I believe that God protected the believers in the early church and his chosen through the ages. Foods like the law were fulfilled in Christ.   

Eating a little meat (size of a deck of cards) is all that is necessary in order to obtain the needed protein and iron. We should probably be better stewards and not encourage the excess killing of animals that the present world is engaged in. We do not need to be vegetarians, remember Jesus ate lamb and fish when in His earthly form.

 Beloved   
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pilgrim

  • Guest
Re: Clean and Unclean Meat !!
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2007, 09:20:51 PM »

Hi All,
I have been unable to find anything in Ray's emails or articles about clean and unclean meats. 

Quote
I may get some uncomfortable feedback on my replies to your questions and others replies but I would like to answer using common sense and logic. I came to the conclusion that the best way of surviving is to read the scriptures as they are written...One can do very well by accepting what God has spoken concerning clean and unclean. I was never an SDA but I fellowshipped with them for 14 years...I was a member of the WWCofGod for a few years (until I was excommunicated because I couldn't accept the tithing and festival doctrines)...In both cases I agreed with both churches on clean and unclean foods (and still do) for the following reasons.
 
Most of the unclean animals are scavengers (they eat rotten material, diseased animals, are known to carry diseases and can be toxic sometimes, etc.
A young female member and good friend of mine in another church that taught "anything goes" died when eating a food that sometimes is toxic.
A fellow employee and long time friend nearly died when he ate scallops.
I can't think of any case concerning Biblical unclean food, that there isn't a rational, reasonable, common sense argument against eating it.
There are so many "clean" foods that one can eat, why bother with the "unclean" foods unless one is stubborn, rebellious, and blind as my friends were!
 

Having come out of a church that taught it was a sin to eat pork, sea food, etc...

Quote
It is not a SIN to eat unclean as you know...It might only kill you!!
Ray teaches about choice and free will... If in doubt ...DON'T


I would so like to have some input into what is correct according to the scriptures.

Quote
What is correct according to the scriptures is what is written...believe it!


Thanks!
Sue Ann


Understand...I believe everything that I have read (so far)here, that God has inspired Ray to teach. He is the best thing that has happened in my life so far.

Bon Apetite
Pilgrim
« Last Edit: August 15, 2007, 02:43:30 AM by pilgrim »
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rk12201960

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Re: Clean and Unclean Meat !!
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2007, 09:35:32 PM »

Hi Guys,
There are so many and I mean MANY hormones, genetic altering, potions and other things in store bought food that makes unclean food look like a mild case of 'I dunno"

Believe me when I say the beef you ate last night could make you glow when the lights are off.

So my questions is which food is more a danger to humans today.
Life is not the same as it was in the OT days so we could be so far off the mark than you think.

Randy
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rjsurfs

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Re: Clean and Unclean Meat !!
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2007, 09:48:36 PM »

Pilgram states:
Quote
6. There are so many "clean" foods that one can eat, why bother with the "unclean" food unless you are stubborn, rebellious, and blind as my friends were!

I eat what my wife puts on the table... before that, what my mother did.  When I'm out I eat what is available.  I guess that makes me stubborn, rebellious, or blind...

1 Corinthians 10:23-31 (King James Version)

 23All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

 24Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth.

 25Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake:

 26For the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof.

 27If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake.

 28But if any man say unto you, this is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof:

 29Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another man's conscience?

 30For if I by grace be a partaker, why am I evil spoken of for that for which I give thanks?

 31Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
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pilgrim

  • Guest
Re: Clean and Unclean Meat !!
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2007, 02:08:10 AM »

Hello Tennessee Bob...


I eat what my wife puts on the table... before that, what my mother did.  When I'm out I eat what is available.  I guess that makes me stubborn, rebellious, or blind...

Well no...that was not my meaning...the key phrase in my words quoted above by you was "as my friends were!"
Both of my friends happened to be stubborn, rebellious, and blind (spiritually) by their own admission and factual observation. They were "know it all types" who knew better after being warned by the medical profession and others, not me.

I also eat what my wife puts on the table...before that, what my mother did. When I'm out I eat what is available.

However if your wife or mine put 3 day old road kill. or raw beef that was from a mad cow, (and we were advised what it was) I would hope that both of us would use common sense and not apply Paul's writings to make it safe to eat. However if you did eat it, I might consider you lacking in common sense, foolish, and not very bright.

The problem is that all of mankind are not civilized. Maybe God knows more than we do. ;D We are very sanitized and are not subjected to food that might harm us seriously.

 Hope I made myself clearer...

Thank God that God is the God that God is!

Pilgrim



« Last Edit: August 15, 2007, 02:37:35 AM by pilgrim »
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Sue Creamer

  • Guest
Re: Clean and Unclean Meat !!
« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2007, 08:20:56 AM »

All,

I really appreciate all your comments and I will keep in mind that although all meat is not forbidden by the scriptures, it makes sense to make choices about the meat we eat based on what is healthy and it sure sounds like a great percent of meat today is polluted, and altered to the point of being toxic.  Seems like MOST of our food is in that same sad condition.  However, knowing that all is God's will and we live day by day living the best we can, guess it does seem a tiny thing to put so much thought into what we are eating or not eating...when in the end "all is God's will".

Peace
Sue Ann
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Beloved

  • Guest
Re: Clean and Unclean Meat !!
« Reply #13 on: August 14, 2007, 11:40:32 AM »

I too used to worry about how toxic the environment is coming because of man's indiscretions, I did a lot of research on the environmental and occupational effects on health. It can be overwhelming and depressing but

As believers we need to Trust God in everything. I am no longer concerned to the degree that I was because

Tit 1:15  Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled

(Phi 4:6 CLV)  Do not worry about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God,


Luk 18:8  ...... Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?


Even though this verse can be translated NO remember that we are called to be overcomers and faithful followers of the Lamb

Rev 17:14 ......the Lamb : for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

1Co 4:2  Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful

1Co 10:31  Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God


Bon Apetite

Beloved     
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Rene

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Re: Clean and Unclean Meat !!
« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2007, 02:06:21 PM »


The problem is that all of mankind are not civilized intelligent white anglo-saxon. Maybe God knows more than we do. ;D We are very sanitized and are not subjected to food that might harm us seriously.




Hi Pilgrim,

I'm sure you are just kidding.  For a moment there I thought you were serious.

I am not a white anglo-saxon, but I have enough intelligence (by the grace of God) to know how to feed my body in a healthy manner. 

Rene'

« Last Edit: August 14, 2007, 05:59:34 PM by Rene »
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johnxx

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Re: Clean and Unclean Meat !!
« Reply #15 on: August 14, 2007, 09:00:51 PM »

hello friend,
I think that I can help you out with your clean & unclean meat. Look at 1 Tim 4:3
" forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain form meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. (4) for every creature of God is gook and nothing to be refused if it be received with Thanksgiving (5) for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer" Their you have it two witness like Bro Ray teaches I hope this helps you out.
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LittleBear

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Re: Clean and Unclean Meat !!
« Reply #16 on: August 14, 2007, 09:29:43 PM »


Hi John,

I love the freedom we have in Christ and no longer have to be bound by the letter of the law. I think if I was in the desert, starving and I happened to spy upon a lizard, I think I would be really thankful! Oh....I would have to kill it first. Oh boy...that would be a problem. :-\

Welcome to the forum John!

Ursula
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Sue Creamer

  • Guest
Re: Clean and Unclean Meat !!
« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2007, 08:37:08 AM »

Hello,

John, thanks (I will study up on I Tim 4:3) that is a great scripture!  Welcome to the forum. 

Ursula, my husband and I got into a conversation last night about "what if we were starving" and if we would eat things we don't normally eat such as snakes, rats...I believe you are right, we would be sooooo thankful for anything, I don't think we would care what it was.  Although, I have a hard time being in the same room with a snake!!!  That is another trial within itself.  After that conversation we went to sleep and I dreamed all night of snakes everywhere!!!  Nighmares!!!  Ugh..not a good way to start the day..

Thanks so much
Sue Ann
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SteveW

  • Guest
Re: Clean and Unclean Meat !!
« Reply #18 on: August 15, 2007, 03:43:49 PM »


The problem is that all of mankind are not civilized. Maybe God knows more than we do. ;D We are very sanitized and are not subjected to food that might harm us seriously.

Civilized = healthy?  In Monday's news we learned that the US tumbled down the world rating list for life expectancy, dropping from 11th to 42nd place. Even though the US spends the most on health care.  Obesity and lifestyle were cited as factors. 

Could it be that rats and snakes would be healthier than Micky D's?  :)

Steve
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okjohnson

  • Guest
Re: Clean and Unclean Meat !!
« Reply #19 on: August 16, 2007, 05:45:41 PM »

Hi Steve

I would guess that census Math does not take into consideration the loss of life we have in wars, 911, and on the highway as compared to other countries when coming up the  life expectancy numbers. They just figure the average life expectancy based on the age of death.

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