The Price You Pay for Truth

[YellowStone]

Hi CIY,

Your post reminds me of the following two Scriptures:

Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. 

It seems very clear to me that it is foolish getting angry or upset about some of the "would be" truths that the "church" teach. I mean really, they could not see or hear the truth if their lives and the lives of their loved ones depened on them doing so. I believe that God's people should care less about what others are doing or saying, but rather about the thoughts, words and motives of their own hearts.

Mat 13:16  But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

Because His people have been given eyes to discern the difference between TRUTH and lies and ears to do the same, one will very quickly see and hear God everywhere and in everything. As you imply, it is totally against mans nature to trust God; yet with His eyes and Ears, the benefits far out weigh the cost.

Great post

Love in Christ,
Darren

[GODSown1]

GODBLESS! U! Beth & B wit U alwayZ!,
                                                    yep! I agree, d@ ur Husband & Pastor didnt jus accidently cum across ur Post its all in da Plan our Awesum! GOD has install 4 U, b strong! dear sister, I Pray HE gives da strength U will b needn, I Pray HE bringZ understandn 2 ur Husband & of coz ur Pastor All in HIS Glorious! timing soona den later, U will b missed, but Plez! try 2 keep in touch, our Prays! will b wit U alwayZ!!..
                    much muchLOVE!! Pera

ps. takecare! sister

[ciy]

To form the subject into a question, what is the price we pay for the truth? 

The price is all, everything.

It is the same for whoever God brings to the knowledge of the truth.  You must be willing to pay it all.  No one has different trials than any other that is being caused to seek the truth.  Like Ray says, "It is all the same."  One person's trials may appear to be different from another's, but basically it is relative.  In order to be a chosen, elect one must drink from the same cup that Jesus drank. 

The rich, young ruler was brought to the knowledge of the truth, but he was not willing to give it all. He came half way and then stopped and turned back into the world.  That is why we must be careful lest we fall again back into the carnal way of looking at things.  We must stay spiritual minded and to do that you must give it all.  Your material things, your reputation, your social standing, your friends, your family, etc. must be thrown completely out of your life.  Jesus says that it must appear and feel as if you hate your family, friends, this world in comparison to how much you love God.

It is a hard teaching.  I am sure Beth is not reading this anymore, but should she be encouraged to stay in church just to keep peace in her family?  Did Jesus say "Go bury your father and take care of all of your family issues and then if it is ok then come follow me"?  Did he say "It will be allright.  Just take up the plow and if you feel a little homesick glance back every once in a while so that you can keep the connection with all of your loved ones and the world"?  No.  Christ gave it all and if you are going to be a chosen of God you will be made to give it all to the end.  Then you will be saved.

It is God's plan.  It is not about our warm, cuddly feeling.  It is to hammer us into the image of God.  We have no will in the matter.  It is all under the control and leading of God.  And when we truly get this truth, we will count it all joy.

Just to encourage us all.
CIY

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hello Darren

Reading your post brings to mind as a witness the following Scriptures.

Often I have seen Church teaching misdirect understandings by stating 1 Cor 2:9 But it is written, had not seen  and ear has not heard and has not entered into the heart of man all that God has prepared for those who love Him.

Church teaching stops at verse nine in full and paradoxical acceptance. I think appropriately so because THEY are deaf and blind.  They do not see or hear and omit what the following verse says:

1 Cor2:10 Yet TO US ( We who are being taught the Truth albeit the far and few scattered ones  ) God has unveiled and revealed them by and through His Spirit for the Spirit searches diligently, exploring and examining everything, (sounds like judgement on the house of God now!  ) even sounding the profound and bottomless things of God, the divine counsels and things hidden and beyond man's scrutiny. (Amplified Translation)

Peace to you

Arcturus

[Scribbles]

Brothers and Sisters, and Beth......I so hope I'm able to put my thoughts into words correctly here.( If I need correction....fire away.) I went to sleep last night with prayers and thoughts about Bam's, and others situation that are similiar, and woke up this morning the same way. I've been in and out of many churches....I guess what you could say 'orthadox', and different denominationals, 'nons', 'spirit-filled', etc etc.  There are others here that have also attended several different kinds of churches, and as we look back we can understand His hand of allowing us the opportunity. In my time of fellowship, reading, and studying here....there's always been one thing that perplexes me: why do they feel they "have to" tell the pastor of their desire for leaving, or already have quit? I'm not bringing up the subject of discussing our new found truth, etc...to others, or the pastor, but rather the heavy hearted desire to personally confront the pastor or elders to tell them that you are leaving. In my own belief, the answer to that is, simply .... we dont have to. We are under no condemnation ......." Rom 8:1.. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit".  From John 5:24 Jesus said " He that heareth my word, and believeth on Him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation, but is passed from death unto life."  Here at the forum, and within Ray's papers, you do not see any condemnation, instead, you find encouragement. Within the christiandom churches you will find plenty of condemnation, threats, etc....hidden very sutly within their teachings. Others will be plain outright bible-thumpin dramatics. In 1Cor.14:33 it says "For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints". 
  In all the churches I attended, for all the different "reasons and circumstances"....not once did I feel obligated to "have to" confront the pastor or elders, etc. with my beliefs and reason I would not be attending anymore. In my opinion, even back then without the full truth in my heart....that I didn't have to answer to "them", nor a husband...but only to God.
  Beth ..... has so many wonderful brothers and sisters here that have helped her, and have given so many wonderful scriptures, and her heart is opened for wisdom and obedience. I hope you stand strong, Bambam.....you might think you have just a little slingshot....but just think what you can do with it, like young Daniel !  and with just a few peaceful strong words, too...
  I understand that many believe they are under the authority or leadership of the church or the spouse, etc...and must obey. But when that 'leadership', or whatever....is not within the truths of God, I would not feel the need to obey nor 'answer to' them. I'm not suggesting to just suddenly fling up our arms, yell "no more going to the church!",  and stay boxed in behind closed doors. It's a walk...a process...a trial......and everything is within Gods timing, and we're all at different places in the walk where He will lead us, where, and when He's ready. One thing for sure....when you're at the right place, at the right time....there will be a peace that truly passes your own understanding.
~ Scribbles ~

[LittleBear]

Hi Scribbles,

I am in agreement with you. I don't understand the need to confront the leadership with the truth, because of the fact that they are the blind leading the blind. One does not have any obligation to them, and it's throwing your precious pearls before swine. The leadership will trample one's newfound truths underfoot. Why do people subject themselves to this? In Beth's case, though, she is in a position of leadership, so I suppose she felt obligated because of that reason.

I feel for you Beth, and I hope you remain strong. I have this feeling that you will sneak in here once in a while.

Beth said: I just feel, though, that if I have to come before the pastor and "recant", (no matter how nice he is, and sweet and loving, this is what he has in essence asked me to do) then I will not be able to deny the truth.

Beth, if you are in a position of leadership, your pastor will probably want a recantation. I shake my head at this. I take it as "It doesn't matter what you really think, we just want lip service, and be a good girl and fall in line."

As CIY says, "The price is all, everything." I will pray that you keep your focus on God and His truth, and know that whatever price God requires of you, it will be worth it, and you will be rejoicing when He brings you through this.

Love,

Ursula

[bambam]

I have been trying to read the comments made to my farewell.  I just want you all to know that you have been encouraging to me.  I wanted to share with you that I did not want to go to the pastor at all.  As a matter of fact I wanted to keep it to myself at this point.  But my husband went to the pastor very hurt and not knowing what to do about me.  Then my husband asked me to come meet with the pastor and his wife with him and I did because I love my husband.  But I never once admitted to the pastor that I was into false doctrine, because I do not think I am.   But he tried to get me to admit it.  I was sad because he did not use much scripture while talking to me.  And I try as much as I can to use scripture when it comes to my mind, after all, is that not what we are basing our beliefs on-the scriptures? 

I don't know much.  I wish I knew it all, but I do not know much.  What I do know is that I want to believe what Ray says, ten thousand times more than what my pastor says.  He gave me a book to read-by Dr. Kennedy of course.  I began reading it and noticed that he used scripture, but not much-most of his writing is his feeling and quotes from other famous or Godly people in the world.

God set this all up you know.   I did NOT want to talk to my pastor, but He had other plans for me.  It may very well be His way of dragging me out.   I am not sure what my husband will do if I do not let go of these newfound truths.  Maybe he loves me enough to step down from leadership, because the pastor will not let him lead with me not "recanting".  I don't mind going to church-it's not a big deal to me, really.  Maybe it will be someday. 

It is funny how what you feel on the inside can fall out of you without you even realizing it.  That is how I got into this in the first place.  God just said it's time, I suppose.

My husband has canceled our internet, so after Thursday, I will not be able to check back here.  But that is okay because then I can keep my word to my husband that i won't come here anymore.

I was wrong in breaking his trust.  I feel bad about that.  But, I know I have been here for a reason and I have more faith in God and His control  than ever before.  He truly is in control, and when you truly believe that, you have nothing to fear for sure.  God has not given us the spirit of fear, but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind!! 

Blessings to you all. 
Beth   

[Deborah-Leigh]

 Hey Beth

You dear hubby is doing something literal to combat something Spiritual and Divine and that is Gods influence on your dear heart! No doubt he needs to cancel your internet to discover the Spirit of God is not dependent on internet.

My ex-pastor stopped us bring the Bible into his meetings!...Did not work...my husband and I still got Dragged out!

No one no length or depth, not life or angels or principalities or things impending and threatening or things to come or powers or anything in all creation can thwart the Plan or Purpose of God and HIS love for us which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.  We may not know nor understand Gods ways or plans in our immediate circumstances, but we can trust to His Care and Plans and be grateful to HIM for the time we could share with you here.

Peace to you

Arcturus.

[Robin]

I will keep you in prayer bambam.

God will continue to teach you even though you are not here with us.

I did not have this site when God started teaching me and he did not let me slip out of his hand.

You have a family out here. You are never alone. Sometimes God separates us so we can learn to trust in him alone. Keep trusting him. He will never let you down no matter how dark it may seem to look.

Hugs,
MG

[gmik]

I am so at a loss.  I don't understand how husbands can NOT give a little credence to the understandings, wants, desires of the wife.  My hubby first thought I was nuts, but he kept listening and w/ ALL the scripture I was throwin at him He couldn't disagree w/ anything.  We were in leadership, my husband went to Russia w/ the pastor, our kids still are there(sort of) and I said...gotta get out of there...and hubby followed me.  It was NOT easy.

I don't blame Beth at all, I am just trying to understand MEN who have to have it their way.  That church has a cultish ring to it if you ask me...recant??? Isn't that a middle age term?

Scribbles I agree w/ your post 100%.

I am assuming Beth is not reading this or hardly anybody is, but I am just venting.  I feel sorry for Beth and mad at her hubby and that "pastor". I will get over it and have to accept God's will but aarrrgggghhhh!

Beth per chance, if you do read this, please forgive me.  I am just gonna miss ya!  I know you will be OK.  Love ya hon.

[GODSown1]

Scribbles! ma brother?/ sister?,
                                         I speak 4 ma self here but den again , wen I went 2 c da snr Pastor of da Church I attended, da first church eva I attended in my life, he asked me 2 bring wot I had been studing or  more wot my eyes & ears had been opened 2, But it all started bcoz I wasnt goin 2 church & da vessel GOD uzed 2 tap me on da shoulder he (Hugh)came ova & I told him the False Doctrines bein preached in Church & he said I was bein deceived!, & I jus replied woteva U r bla bla bla, so he went 2 c da Pastor whom I had great respect 4, da Pastors wife rung me 2 cum c dem, she also was sum1 I hav much respect 4, bla bla bla, I Pray sum day soon GOD will Open der eyes & ears 2 HIS Wonderful Truths, I know its all jus GODS Will, whence da reasons Y, I & n e body else act & say in da manner in which We do, Y!!?? BCOZ! "GODS in CONTROL!!". so wot im sayn is GOD wanted us 2, GODBlesS!!, Peace 2 U...
                                          muchLOVE!! Pera

[bambam]

God is good!  He is AWESOME.  And nothing can sway me from that!!  gmik, recant was my word.:-)  I am sorry if I gave the impression that it was a word my pastor used.  He is not a jerk!  Blind maybe, but not a jerk because he really believes what he believes.  We are getting rid of the internet for more than one reason.  Though I do not want to get rid of it, it will be okay!  I just can't get over the peace I feel right now.  It IS a peace that passes all understanding!  God is in control.  His ways are not mine.  For the first time in my entire life I am laying motionless in His hands.  I am not doing anything.  I have not planned anything.  I have no where to go.  I am truly resting in Him, and the peace  I find there is-well-unexplainable.  Because I acknowledge for real, that I have no say in what goes on in this life anyways, I can do nothing BUT rest and move as He causes me to.  My heart is thrilled.  My soul is strengthened in Him.  God is good!  I trust Him! 

P.S.  I am going to hang in here till Thursday-that's when we get disconnected. 

Blessings,
Beth 

[hillsbororiver]

Hello Everyone,

Before my wife decided to leave the Baptist church she was attending I attempted an email communication with her pastor, it truly was a joke.

To keep it short here, I sent small portions of articles by Ray and asked the minister to please refute them with Scripture, he couldn't. Instead he sent me the despicable writings of Jonathon Edwards which I took a few hours and refuted, chapter and verse, it was not very difficult as Mr. Edwards uses very little Scripture.

This man has a Masters Degree in theology and the church is paying for his Doctorate, it is easy to discern he wants desperately to be called "Doctor." He did not respond after my fine tooth comb (Scripture) review of the Jonathon Edwards article claiming he was "just too busy," my final request to him included my observation that one Day unless he truly seeks the Wisdom of the Lord with a contrite heart he may have to recall those very words to the Lord Himself.

I never heard back from him.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

[indianabob]

Beth and all the helpers who have commented, Thank you for your gracious words.

I have thought about this type of situation for several years.

My brief thought about it is that we are being trained and prepared to serve God in a wonderful way in the coming Kingdom of our Lord Jesus when he returns to claim his throne.  At that time he will take charge and institute true government in the earth.   When things have calmed down a little and a form of social order is organized there will be millions of frightened and lonely people who will need a shoulder to cry on and that shoulder will be each of us.  Jesus is a sharing leader just like his Father and our Father and I am sure that this example will be followed by Jesus.

We will each be available to use our hard earned talents along with the great patience and spiritual understanding that Jesus will impart to us, to comfort and counsel and encourage all those millions of lost souls who are hurt and confused and our knowledge will come partly from God and partly from our human experiences that have taught us to empathize with the suffering that others have had to endure, in many cases, without even understanding why.  All of this is part of our spiritual training.

Therefore, in many cases it may be advisable to remain somewhat attached to the church we were in and attached to the family that we were born or married into and to spend our time growing in grace and knowledge of what it is like to be IN the world and yet not OF the world.  What better place to internalize what it is like to have to live among non-believers and continue to love them.

Do we have to separate ourselves from everyone in order to honor God?  I don't think that Jesus requires us to become spiritual hermits.  Didn't Paul mention that we have to seek new converts among the pagans as well as among the people of God?  Who knows whether there may be one or two out of a hundred in our local church who will begin to ask questions of us and allow GOD to bless them through our poor efforts, even a year or two from now.  Could this be an example of the patience of the Saints who continue to live among the unbelievers keeping their own private counsel and yet being ready to give an answer for the faith that lies within them at the appropriate time?

How will you share your new understanding with others if you have no contact with them.  Who will most likely understand what you are sharing other than a person already familiar with the Bible?  Running away to be with ONLY those of like mind and like beliefs may not be the best use of our hard earned training. So, perhaps remain where you are and be a light with no particular agenda other than to provide love and to learn to endure with patience.  That in itself is a great accomplishment.

All comments are welcome.  Thank you, Bob

[DuluthGA]

Great thoughts and sentiments Indiana Bob!  And I agree... one has to make a little sound to get persecuted as Jesus forewarned.  One does not get hated and persecuted by not uttering a word.  Ray Smith "makes sounds" as God has given him in his heart to do, and he has the honor of being hated and he has suffered persecution for sake of the truth of God's Word.

My post for Beth today is that I would be more than happy to make Ray audio CDs or print out transcriptions and mail them to you to keep you updated with BT material.  I will PM you right now with my snail mail address and phone number for you to write or call me anytime and make any requests, no problem, it would give me much joy. 

Hoping the best for you in our Lord 
With love,
Janice

[DuluthGA]

Thanks for PMing me back Beth.  Hang on to these verses for possible help with your hubby.  First, Jesus says Himself that not all are given to see/hear/understand the truth:

Matt 13: 13-16   "Therefore in parables am I speaking to them, seeing that, observing, they are not observing, and hearing, they are not hearing, neither are they understanding.
14 And filled up in them is the prophecy of Isaiah, [Isa 6:10] that is saying, '"In hearing, you will be hearing, and may by no means be understanding, And observing, you will be observing, and may by no means be perceiving."
15 For stoutened is the heart of this people, And with their ears heavily they hear, And with their eyes they squint, Lest at some time they may be perceiving with their eyes, And with their ears should be hearing, And with their heart may be understanding, And should be turning about, And I shall [implied: would have to] be healing them.'
16 "Yet happy are your eyes, for they are observing, and your ears, for they are hearing. [Because it was Given for them to receive the truths.][Also Mark 4:12, Acts 28:26-27, Luke 8:10] [CLNT]

*******************

Here's Rom 11: 32 in a bunch of different translations so you can really get the feel of the fact that God is the CAUSE of those who are not given to receive the truth.

For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. [KJV]

For God has locked up all in the prison of unbelief, that upon all alike He may have mercy. [Weymouth NT]

For God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all. [CLNT]

For God hath shut up all together, in a refusal to yield, in order that, upon all, he may bestow mercy. [Rotherham's]

for God did shut up together the whole to unbelief, that to the whole He might do kindness.  [Young's Literal Translation]

For God shut up all in disobedience, that He may show mercy to all. [Green's Literal Translation]

For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all. [NRS]

For God hath shut up together all in unbelief, in order that he might shew mercy to all. [Darby Translation]

***********************

And finally here's a great verse that let's us know God has set all of this Babylon stuff up.  And yes, we do have to come out of it.

Jer 16: 19O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit.

God's best to you Beth.  I'll always be happy to hear from you or help you in any way! 
Janice

[bambam]

Janice,
   Hello.  My husband and I had another discussion last night and ended up in Romans 11 where it talks about all of Isreal being saved.  It's neat for you to point out verse 32 today!    I told my husband I just love verses 33-36.  They are an explanation of God's ways and wisdom, and they are wonderful!!  Thank you for the references!  I think I will take a peek at Matthew 13 tonight! 

Blessings,
Beth

[indianabob]

Folks,

This is amazing to read.

This whole thread with bambam and her husband.

I have been in a similar situation, BUT from the opposite side of the family situation.
I was the husband in the mix and my poor wife was the one who didn't like to go along mostly because she is so naturally more perceptive of other peoples inner feelings.  She can see right through a phony while I'm still introducing him to her.  She called one of our pastors, 'the silver fox' because of his beautiful hair and the enticing smile with the slick vocabulary. Actually he was prettier than Ray Smith and lots younger.  Ha ha, just kidding Ray.

Anyhow, just wanted to say that I will be praying for Beth and that I think I understand a little of what she is going through since after several years my wife has let out all her former frustrations and told me or let me see the truth about myself and the wolves I had been following while I or we were in WCG.

Meanwhile, we all can be praying for Beth as the spirit leads us, because she will need encouragement and to know that her sisters and brothers here  at BT forum are thinking of her needs every day and every day.

Years ago, we learned from one of our friends that he believed that God condescends to call 'little ones' children or spouses who are of such great value to His called out and chosen ones, EVEN THOUGH that had not been the original plan.  Perhaps, if we petition God, He will see the way to call Beth's husband since they are truly one flesh and should, one day, be of one mind.  Let's hope so.

Love and hugs, Bob