Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[hillsbororiver]

Everything between the brackets is from Ray's new paper;
 
["For the creature was made subject to vanity [King James Margin: "futility"], not willingly, but by reason of Him [God] Who has subjected [Gk: ‘subjects’—aorist tense—subjecting is still going on] the same in hope" (Rom. 8:20).

God willfully, wantingly, knowingly, purposely, and wisely, created mankind "subject to vanity," subject to failure, but beyond the failure, God also subjects the same in "hope." Once again, contrary to all orthodox doctrine, there is hope for all of God’s carnal-minded, God-hating people on planet Earth. God Himself says so, in the same breath: "because the creature itself [the same creation that God subjects to vanity, futility, failure, and carnal-minded hatred against God] also shall be [ah, did you catch that? ‘shall be’], delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God" (Rom. 8:21). Do you believe the Scriptures? Really—what about this one?

And so God, "made the creature subject to vanity"—failure, but later in mankind’s development, the creature "shall be"— [future tense]… shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption." Ah yes, God created them in a condition of "bondage" and "corruption," and therefore not "immortal" as is taught, but rather in "bondage of corruption." But thanks to God, in the resurrection of the dead, ‘…this corruption must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality’ (I Cor. 15:54).]

I have spent a good portion of the past 2 days reading and rereading Ray's new paper and once again I am amazed at the depths of wisdom that the Spirit has provided and shown us through him.

Before I "stumbled" onto these sites I must have read these verses scores if not a hundred times and they never sunk in or made sense but now they are perfectly clear. "Being made subject to vanity, not willingly!" How can the denominations and others read this and still insist we were created perfect and chose to rebel?

Well, I at one time was sure of that deception too.

Joe

[orion77]

I stand in awe, between the way I see now and then.  It is truly an unbelievable difference.  

It took the spirit of God to see, I can take no credit in myself, for we all know who ourselves are.  Also the grace and chastening from God, which brought me to a point of nothingness.  This opened a whole new outlook, that is completely different from the physical, selfish mindset.

When I look at our brethren who are still carnal, the differences we have, the persecutions by them, I must forgive them...there is no other option, because God forgave me.  But, I must admit, tis easier said than done.

Most assuredly is a learning and growing experience.  Having the anticipation of learning something new each day is joyful and humbling at the same time.  May we continue to grow through each others experiences.

God bless,

Gary

[hillsbororiver]

Bobby, yes Brother it is certainly an incredible experience, especially looking back at what we once took for granted and then with the Spirit opening our eyes, like when Jesus gave sight to the blind what we are being shown, and in turn actually seeing it!

Now with the parables, I remember how I was taught exactly what Ray is saying the denominations teach. I find this to be a very humbling revelation, that someone like me might actually be called to something this wonderful, this glorious. I pray to overcome and perservere.

Ray's comments in the brackets;
{ [A] "All these things spoke Jesus unto the multitude in PARABLES; and without a parable spoke He not unto them" (Matt. 13:34).

"But without a PARABLE spoke He not unto them…" (Mark 4:34).

[C] "This PARABLE spoke Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which He spoke unto them" (John 10:6).

Jesus taught in parables only, and no one understood His parables, hence Jesus taught in a way that He knew no one would understand His message. This truth of Scripture is so revolutionary to the minds of most Christians that many will think it blasphemy, and yet the Scriptures abound with statements that fully support it.

I heard Matt Croach (elder son of TBN President, Paul Croach) state on international television that Jesus spoke in parables to make the meaning of His teachings simple and clear and understandable to the simple farmers and uneducated people of Judea. My Wycliffe Bible Dictionary has a similar explanation: "Purpose of parables. The obvious purpose of Jesus’ use of parables was to make spiritual truth clear and compelling." What a crock.

Is anyone interested in what Jesus Himself had to say about His use of Parables? Good. Here it is:

"And the disciples came, and said unto Him, Why do you speak unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but unto them it is not given" (Matt. 13:10-11).

Now then, does anyone see any similarity between "to make spiritual truth clear and compelling," and "…but unto them it is not given?" No? Neither do I. What I see is a diametric opposite. What I see is a flat out contradiction between Christian teachers and the Word of God.}

Anyone else have any comments on this paper?

Joe

[bobf]

How can the denominations and others read this and still insist we were created perfect and chose to rebel?

Joe[/b]

Because free will is an idol.  It makes us a sort of god.  You see if God gave us free will then He can not violate it.  That limits God's power and extends our power.  That means when we "are saved" we can glory over our own wisdom that we believed.  Without free will it means God really did it all and the beast rebels at the notion he is powerless.

An orthodox Christian once told me "God does not trample on man's free will" and that's when I knew it is an idol.  God tramples all over man's will in scripture.

[shibboleth]

I just finished the paper and Ray has done it again. Although Ray has mentioned all these ideas in his papers already, it is a real help to have them in one paper to refer back to. I have my LOF series all maked up so I can find quotes and scriptures. With these interpretaion hints, I can just refer back to them if I need to know  how to look for a truth in scripture.

I really liked the 2 witnesses. From now on, I will remember that when I have a problem understanding what a scripture is trying to say.

[Kevin]

I thought the paper was very well written.
Speaking of free will. The churches believes that man has free will, for the fact they believe in ET. They understand neither of these.

[bobf]

This part REALLY hit home to me.

If you cannot identify yourself, personally, with all the stories and accounts in the Old Testament, then you have not even begun to overcome all the carnality that you are.

When I first started to believe that God would save all mankind. I wasn't completely convinced.  I had seen mostly NT verses about it.  But something within me told me to search the OT to see if this is the truth.

So I started doing that about 2 years ago.  Reading lots & lots of the OT passages with an eye towards seeing if God would be saving all mankind.

My prior indoctrination had taught me that the OT was a literal history written TO Israel and FOR our learning.  I knew it contained some foreshadows & types of Christ, but beyond that it was LITERAL and FOR our learning, not TO us and certainly not ABOUT us.

But then something happened as I read.  Completely unexpected.  Little by little I began to see these OT passages as spiritual allegories & parables.  And then I began to see MYSELF being talked about in these parables.  I told my son & wife about it.  Then I searched the internet to see if others thought this way.  But I didn't really find anyone.  I never even saw it stated this way in Mikes or Rays writings either.

Until recently that is, when I heard Mike teach this on audio (I literally jumped out of bed and danced in the room!) and now Ray says it in this paper.

Jesus said regarding the OT scriptures "they are they which testify of me [Jesus]" but  they are that ALSO which testify of US, because "as He is so are we in this world."

So this is what I say:
Come see a man who told me all the things that I ever did! Is this not the Christ!

[love_magnified]

There is punishment. The futility he subjected us to is slavery to sin. Adam was flesh from the beginning, but had not sinned. The devil decieved them into desiring to please their flesh. They sinned and God gave them their consequence which we inherited: being cast away from Him into darkness. We sin because we are blind, and sinning leads to more blindness: futility. Now by the power of the spirit within, this futility is broken in all those who believe. Those who believe are the Sons of God, and they will recieve creation into their glorious liberty. That's the hope we look forward to.

[orion77]

Bobf, I agree totally.  Amen!  When that light is turned on, wow oh wow!!!  Everything changes, truly reborn.

I have often thought that this life is no different than the Israelites of the OT.  Too many simularities to just be coincedence.  All I can say is, it's amazing how blind and deaf I was.  I thank God for putting me through all these hard times to bring me to His senses, not mine!

God bless,

Gary

[love_magnified]

So you go on, being what you were? Doesn't sound like punishment to me.

God's punishment often has to do with turning man over to a reprobate mind.

Consider: The born Blind man has no concept of being blind until told. Then he has to wonder what he lacks all of his life until sight is restored.

Of course, the Church in Laodocia didn't even know they were blind, naked etc. They are judged without even knowing it. But their nakedness and blindness will be exposed to them. God's judgements tend to be progressive.

I've heard a quote from a Native American man (or maybe an eskimo) to a missionary thats roughly: "If I had never known about the Bible, would I have gone to Heaven?" The missionary replies yes. In which case the Native says, "Then why did you tell me?" My point, some people are content with blindness. The natural cycles aren't futile, but vital in their way.

Peter said would be better to not have ever heard the truth than to hold it in unrighteousness. Those who did wrong but did not know will be beaten with less stripes than people who knew and ignored. Many people are content with their blindness today. But they will have their blindness made manifest to them. It is fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

But the interesting thing there, is that the Native American is being told a lie. Had he been told the truth, that by believing in Christ he would be given all God's glory to recieve the rest of Creation into glorious liberty, he would rejoice. Unless he just wasn't interested..

Of course if you want to be biblical, they can seem that way when you have the opportunity to rest in a Paradise. But then again, the answers of "blindness and darkness" really dont' seem like answers.

The natural cycles are futile to anyone who puts their faith in the natural things and not the spiritual things.

[orion77]

I think for us, it is important to read the book of Job and read of the human reasoning from Jobs three associates who tried to console him,


Job 2:11
Now three associates of Job heard about all this evil coming on him, and they set out, each one from his place, Eliphaz the Temanite, Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite. They appointed a time together to come and condole with him and comfort him.


After reading all the book of Job and the responses from these three, then see what God says about it all,

Job 42:1
Then Job answered Yahweh and said:

Job 42:2
I know that You can do all things, And no plan of Yours can be thwarted.

Job 42:3
Who is this who obscures counsel without knowledge? Wherefore I have professed ideas when I was not understanding, Things too marvelous for me, that I did not know.

Job 42:4
Hearken now, and I myself shall speak; I shall ask of you, and you inform Me.

Job 42:5
With the hearing of the ear I had heard of You, But now my eye sees You.

Job 42:6
Therefore I sink down and repent On soil and ashes.

Job 42:7
It came to pass after Yahweh had spoken these words to Job that Yahweh said to Eliphaz the Temanite: My anger is hot against you and your two associates because you did not speak concerning Me what is rightly so as My servant Job has done.

Job 42:8
Now take for yourselves seven bullocks and seven rams. Go to my servant Job, and offer up an ascent offering on behalf of yourselves. And Job, my servant, he shall pray for you. For then I shall lift up his face by not inflicting on you any disgrace. For you did not speak concerning Me what is rightly so as My servant Job has done.


Worldly wisdom, a good heart, trying to do right ourselves does not cut it with God.  We all must go to the point of Job in each of our lives, before we can see clearly.  It must be experienced, not in mere words, but by the will of God.

God bless,

Gary

[hillsbororiver]

"But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. For verily I say unto you, that many prophets and righteous men [all the patriarchs of the Old Testament] have desired to see those things which you see, and have NOT seen them, and to hear those things which you hear, and have NOT heard them" (Matt. 13:10-17).

I doubt that many of my readers are comprehending the marvelous truths contained in the above passages. The prophets THEMSELVES (even Isaiah himself), desired to see these things, but did NOT see them. All of the Apostles and New Testament writers understood that the patriarchs of old including the prophets themselves, did not understand their own prophesies, therefore they were not converted, and they are not saved. These things are for those who come after Christ, not before:

The above quote from Ray's new paper is something very few (in the denominations) comprehend or even contemplate, it is just assumed (presumed may be a better word) that these Old Testament Patriarchs are currently in Heaven floating about until they get their resurrected physical bodies.

If these men of old were unable to fathom God's truths and purpose, even after diligent searching and prayer how can one expect the world in it's natural state to understand? The fact that they are in the 2nd Resurrection is something that at first I could not begin to see, but now it has become clear.

The Resurrection of the Firstfruit (Jesus) has made this (understanding) possible by His fulfillment of the Old Covenant. This was not available to them, not even to John the Baptist;

 Mat 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Peter addresses this new reality, only made possible by Jesus death and Resurrection;

1Pe 2:9  But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light:
 
1Pe 2:10  Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.


Joe

[ertsky]

calls for a celebration

Isa 42:9  Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.

Isa 43:19  Behold, I will do a new thing; now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it? I will even make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert.

alright!

f

[hillsbororiver]

calls for a celebration

Isa 42:9  Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.

Isa 43:19  Behold, I will do a new thing; now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it? I will even make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert.

alright!

f

Amen Frank!

This also tends to dispel the belief that is was physical Israel the Patriarchs were speaking of in the OT.

Joe

[orion77]

I love the eigth chapter of Romans.  Here are a few verses:


Rom 8:28
Now we are oaware that *God is working all together intofor the good of *those who are loving *God, *who |are called according to the purpose

Rom 8:29
that, whom He foreknew, He designates beforehand, also,  to be conformed to the image of His *Son, intofor Him *to be Firstborn among many brethren.

Rom 8:30
Now whom He designates beforehand, these He calls also, and whom He calls, these He justifies also; now whom He justifies, these He glorifies also.

Rom 8:31
anyWhat then, shall we |declare toward these things? If *God is forthe sake of us, anywho is against us?

Rom 8:32
Surely, He Who spares~ not His own *Son, but _ogives Him up forthe sake of us all, how shall He not, together with Him, also, be graciously~ granting us *all?

Rom 8:33
anyWho will be indicting against God's chosen ones? God, the |Justifier?

Rom 8:34
anyWho is the |Condemner? Christ Jesus, the One dying, yet rather being roused, Who is also inat God's right hand, Who is pleading also for our sakes?

Rom 8:35
anyWhat shall be separating us from the love of *God *in Christ Jesus? Affliction, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword?

Rom 8:36
According as it is owritten~ that  "On Thy account we are being put to death~ the whole day, We are reckoned as sheep for slaughter."

Rom 8:37
butNay! in all these we are more than conquering through Him *Who loves us.

Rom 8:38
For I am opersuaded~ that neither death nor life, nor messengers, nor sovereignties, nor the opresent, nor what is impending, nor powers,

Rom 8:39
nor height, nor depth, nor any differentother creation, will be |able~ to separate us from the love of *God *in Christ Jesus, our *Lord.



No need to worry or live in fear anymore.  Yeeehaaawwww!!!!!

God bless,

Gary

[mark]

brothers, up here in va. where I live , on ONE RIDGE ALONE there are 5, yes [5] freewill baptists churches, within a 8 mile radius of one another...
   
  thought you would be amused! or maybe amazed, I live here and I am.

      mark.

[ertsky]

i just did a quick read up on the free will baptists, PHEW!! they sure are a keen lot LOL!

heres a quote from their website

I KNEW THAT GOING INTO CHICAGO was going to be very expensive. The cost of real estate in the inner city was a concern for our mission work. For the first two years of the work we met in my living room for worship services and Bible studies. We then met on the second floor of an office building for three months before finding a union hall that would rent to us. Northwest FWB Church met there for over seven years. We were a storefront church. Our growth was slow and limited. We were able to draw a crowd to an event, but people did not consider us a credible church.
Knowing we needed a building, we began a property fund campaign in 1997. By 1999 we were able to begin looking. In early 2000, we found one listed for $675,000.00. We expressed an interest and by the time we made a serious offer, the amount had been reduced to $575,000.00. I met with the Illinois Mission Board and we agreed to make a serious effort to purchase this property. Eighty percent of the inquiries on this parcel of land were from religious groups. However, we were the only group the owners were willing to meet. They viewed us as a credible entity because the Home Missions Department and the Illinois State Association backed us. With financing through the Church Extension Loan Fund (CELF), the seller knew we had the means to buy. We negotiated from March until August. Professional costs relating to the zoning and special use permits ran close to $30,000.00. We negotiated the owners down to $445,000. This seemed high, and it was, but there was no way around it if we were to have a permanent location in the city. After receiving zoning approval, things moved fast, and we closed on the property on September 15, 2000. We kept some cash for remodeling and borrowed $269,000.00 from the CELF program.  We ended up spending well over $100,000 for remodeling, parking, landscaping, a sign, fencing, and various professional costs. Since moving into this building we have seen steady growth and we plan to be self-supporting by the end of 2006.
Beginning in 2001 we began the first of two debt-reduction campaigns. Free Will Baptists responded. Boy, did they respond! Our first campaign was called, “Chicago - My Kind of Town.� We were able to meet every mortgage payment, and by May of 2005, we had the balance down to $91,000! This was becoming a miracle. Our final debt-reduction push was called “Crossing the Finish Line.� I decided to run in the Chicago Marathon on October 9, 2005, as a fundraiser. By the date of the marathon our principal balance was down to $52,000 with over $20,000 pledged. When I finished the marathon (19,575 out of 40,000 runners) we realized we were $30,000 from paying off our mortgage. After sharing this story with the Bethany FWB Church in Broken Arrow, Oklahoma, God used them to complete the miracle. In November, they presented a check for $30,000. We made our final payment of $46,000 and became DEBT-FREE! Through all of this push for freedom from debt, Free Will Baptists continued to support my mission account as well.

PHEW!! i'm exhausted and i only read it LOL!

well good to see all that free will paying off (just kidding, just kidding)

f

PS: be careful not to stand still too long out on the ridge Mark, these boys might just build a building around you while you're standing there

[mark]

I didn't mean to leave the sister's out when I adressed the brothers, try and do better,  because we ALL are brother's and sister's in my heart! and in the spirit of God our Father, through Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour. amen .   also Ertsky, I will brother, be watching the ridge top's. [ho]. mark

[mark]

bobby , did you know that , up here in VA. where I live , they have "independent," yea, that right "Independent Freewill baptist", churches. they think independent, from the ""freewill baptist", just something to think about ?  GOD Bless.  mark

[hillsbororiver]

[1] "But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, you will REMEMBER that I told you of them" (John 16:4).

This is how the gospel accounts could be written 30-40 years later, because God caused them to "remember" all these things. Remember how I taught in my "Lake of Fire" series, that in Revelation 1:10 & 12 John, "…heard behind" him, a trumpet, and he "turned to see…" And that is how we come to understand many things in the spirit. It is only when we turn and look behind us that we see what we didn’t see while it was actually taking place.

"These things understood NOT His disciples at that time: but when Jesus was glorified, then REMEMBERED they that these things were written of Him, and that they had done these things unto Him" (John 12:16).

"Then REMEMBERED I the word of the Lord, how that He said…" (Acts 11:16).

[2] "And He said unto them, These are the words which I spoke unto you, while I was yet with you… Then opened he their understanding, that they might UNDERSTAND the Scriptures" (John 24:44-45).

[3] After three and one half years of personal tutoring and training of His disciples, Jesus told them at the last supper, "I have yet MANY THINGS to say unto you, but ye cannot hear them NOW" (John 16:13).

And so the disciples understood many things [1] after they came to pass, [2] again when Jesus opened their understanding, and [3] many more things as they progressed and grew in their faith and ministry.

Peter learned to not call the Gentiles common or unclean. He preached to them the gospel, and they received God’s Holy Spirit. Paul learned the truth about being baptized by God’s Spirit rather than by water. The whole Church learned that Circumcision and the Law of Moses was not required for salvation at the Acts 15 Jerusalem Conference. And many more such things.

But primarily in this Truth, we are dealing with Christ’s opening of their understanding of the Scriptures after His resurrection.

Before Jesus opened their understanding of the Scriptures on the evening of His resurrection, no New Testament writer could have quoted Scriptures from the Old Testament and applied them to Christ as we find in our Bibles today. And why is that?

(The above from Ray's latest paper)

I have found this to be so true in my own experience and also of what I have read from many members here, that we were drawn or taught or crushed earlier in our walk with Him but at the time we had no clue as to what was actually happening and why this strange thing or things happened to us.

When we look back with (spiritually) opened eyes it becomes clear, the point in where He reached us so well defined, but it was a blur as it was unfolding.
What an incredible thing to ponder, the apostles were with Him 3 1/2 years and were clueless until His Resurrection and gift of the Spirit of understanding, even then things were revealed as time passed, His time for His purpose. I pray for that understanding every day.

Joe