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[skydreamers]

Hi everyone,

I've recently been in a discussion in which the two resurrections came into question.

I know this has been discussed before in this forum and I didn't want to resurrect (pardon the pun) an old thread that is already extremely long so I'll just post the link to it:

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4215.0.html

Some things that were said in this discussion I had outside of this forum really made me think, and I just wanted to see what all of you think.

A point that was made is, isn't there just ONE resurrection?:

John 11:25
Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life.

Jesus is THE resurrection...and as Ray stresses everything is ONE.

Now I don't want to start splitting hairs here but I've been thinking of this non-stop though I don't entirely know why it would be important to figure out.  I suspect though it would help identify the “second death”.

Revelation 20:5-6
5  The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection.
6  Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

As verse 5 is suspected to be spurious than we have only verse six in the entire bible which mentions a “first” resurrection...and in the same scripture we have the indication that those first will “reign” with Christ. 

When you look at the word first we find in it's Greek definition this: 
1) first in time or place
1a) in any succession of things or persons
2) first in rank
    a) influence, honour
    b) chief
    c) principal
3)first, at the first

So it is possible that we can look at this as not chronological but that there is one resurrection  of two ranks of people...the chosen can be said to be first in rank/influence/honour.  This makes sense because they will be Kings and Priests who reign with Christ.

This is the same way in which the word "first" is used in "first love".  Jesus may not be our first chronological love but He certainly is our chiefest/best/principal and most honoured Love.

The unjust are raised to shame/contempt and judgment as they are still in need of having the carnal mind put to death and to learn righteousness. 

Daniel 12:2
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 5:28-29
28  Do not marvel at this, for AN HOUR is coming when ALL who are in the tombs will hear his voice
29  and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.


None of these verses clarifies whether these are two resurrections happening at separate times.  It could still be ONE resurrection of two different groups of people happening in the same hour...

Here's what I found in a e-mail response from Ray to someone who was confused in thinking two resurrections happens to the same person:

There are not two resurrection for the same person, but rather two classes of people who are resurrected, and the Elect are said to be in the "first" or "former" resurrection.  "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the FIRST [or former] resurrection" (Rev. 20:5). Now this is some question as to whether this verse is really Scripture or whether it was added to the manuscript. We still have conformation of two classes of people resurrected from other Scriptures:

        "...that there shall be a resurrection of the [1] JUST, and [2] UNJUST" (Acts. 24:15).

        "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, [1] some to everlasting [eonian] life, and [2] some to shame and everlasting [eonian] contempt" (Dan. 12:2).

        "And shall come forth; they that have done good unto [1] the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto [2] the resurrection of damnation" (John 5:29).

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5028.msg39466.html#msg39466


But as I've pointed out I'm still not sure that these passages confirm there are two separate resurrections occurring at different times.  And Ray seems to stress the "two classes of people" rather than the two resurrections.

Same with this verse:

Acts 24:15
having a hope in God that there will be A resurrection of both the just and the unjust.

Why wouldn't this be made clear here that there will be “two resurrections, one for the just and one for the unjust”.  But that's not what it says.  It looks more like it says A resurrection which includes both the just and the unjust.

So if the unjust are raised to immortality as the just are, then they cannot die...”the second death” could then only be the death to the carnal mind.  They can be born of the spirit but still be carnal, as satan and the demons are spirits and are carnal.  The carnal mind (not physical flesh) is what needs to be eliminated.  So this would put to rest the belief out there in some Christian circles that the “second death” is a physical death that is permanent.

What do you all think?  Sorry for the length of this.

Peace,
Diana

[Chris R]

Hi, Diana

We dont have to guess what the second death is,  Rev 20:14  And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This IS the second death.

 Rom 11:32  For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

 Rom 11:33  O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

 Rom 11:34  For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

 Rom 11:35  Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?

The truth of the matter is, We dont know the way in which God will judge men, Or the method in which He will do it.

There is coming a promise, to those who have been chosen, A promise to rule with Christ a "thousand years" [parable]..I dont know what this parable might mean.

 Rev 20:13  And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Every man is judged. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire

Sounds to me like Every man..INCLUDES those chosen..who else would have their name written in this book of life?...Who other than Gods Chosen have part of this book of life?

Peter Said, Judgment must begin at the house of God, But the Scriptures speak nothing of that judgment being final.

Anyway..just a thought

Peace

Chris R

[hillsbororiver]

Hi Chris,

I see we were posting simultaneously.....

Great response by the way!

Peace,

Joe

[Redbird]

Dear Diana,

After reading your post.  I tend to agree with your train of thought.  The following verse comes to mind;

Isaiah 11: 4-6  But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.  And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.  The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

Glory and Honor to God the Father, and Jesus Christ, the Son.
Lisa

[jacieleigh]

I don't really understand all about these things. It is a bit hard for me to think about at this time in my life just having my time of mourning passed and trying to pick up the pieces. Daddy and I talked a little about it. He said I didn't have to struggle over the answers and the questions. As anyone could imagine, my thoughts centered on Daddy's passing. I wanted to know how I was going to live alone, without any parents, where Daddy was going and when I would see him again. He told me that " God, the Father of us all has it. To rest in knowing that the Father in heaven loves me more than anything and He would take care ofthe details. To be comforted by the Spirit."
I miss him and my other family so much but I try to focus on the fact that God has it all under control. I am amazed at the study done on these topics. I can tell that many here have a gift of discovery through hard work. Thank you to all who share that wisdom.

[skydreamers]

Hi, Diana

We dont have to guess what the second death is,  Rev 20:14  And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This IS the second death.

Hi Chris!  OF COURSE!  Thank you for reminding of that!  I don't know why I completely forgot that verse.  Silly me.  Thank you for your post.

Lisa, that was a  beautiful scripture you brought out.  I've never seen that before, how cool!  Thank you.

Ray has only touched the surface of this subject but I know he is planning to write an in depth paper at some point (hopefully soon) but I do believe he is of the mind that it (resurrection) happens to all creation in one grand event.

Hi Joe, thanks for your reply.  I look forward to that paper!  I know this is a complicated subject and I can't expect to have it all figured out .  I still have to learn to be patient and not get frustrated when I don't "know it all"!!   It's just another one of those topics carried over from SDA thinking that I have had to unravel, because they really stress the "two" resurrections etc.

Hi Kat, thanks for adding those scriptures.  Yes, that does seem to point to one event as well.  That makes even more sense of it all.  It is at least comforting to know that not even Ray has it "all put together" yet...

Hi Jacie, I completely understand where you are coming from.  Your Dad was a very wise man...you surely don't have to struggle over all the questions and answers.  I'm wired in such a way that I'm driven to dissect everything and often end up overwhelming myself because I can't understand it all.  I see this trait coming out in my 5 year old son, who loves to take apart every thing in our house (which I allow him to have) and examine with great interest its inner workings.  It keeps him busy for hours, but he also is showing the tendency to get frustrated when he can't figure out "how it works".  (And I think, oh boy, here we go...this should be an interesting life between the two of us.. )  Take it from me, don't go there if you don't want to!   It is not necessary to figure out the resurrection process...it is much better to rest in Jesus knowing it is all worked out perfectly.

Thanks to everyone for your contributions!

Peace,
Diana 

[CEO]

Hi yall

     They (the resurrections) cannot be at the same time.  Matt.24:40 "Then two will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left.
     Is not the one taken in the first resurrection while the other is still physical?

                                             Askseeknock

                                              Charles O

[hillsbororiver]

Hi Charles,

Remember "But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be"

Mat 24:37  But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
 
Mat 24:38  For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,
 
Mat 24:39  And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Those in Noah's day all experienced the flood at the same time, the only difference was that those (the few) who were in the ark were saved, same event, same rain, same flood, same day(s).

I don't claim to know all the details (not even close) but we must consider the Words of Christ in this parable as He compares His return to Noah's days.

The same rain fell on the whole world at the same time but with different results for the chosen.

I like the idea of animals also being saved, could Noah's experience be pointing to this as well?

My 2 cents........

Joe

P.S. Diana, I know exactly what you are saying in regard to the SDA teachings, it stuck with me too, at least for a long while.     

 

[lilitalienboi16]

Gosh this is a fascinating topic, man i read these posts and i am in aw. God has filled many of you with incredible knowledge and i'm just eating it all up, thank God!

i CANT WAIT until ray shares what the Lord has allowed Him to see and hear!

Love to all,

Alex

[Chris R]

Hi yall

     They (the resurrections) cannot be at the same time.  Matt.24:40 "Then two will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left.
     Is not the one taken in the first resurrection while the other is still physical?  

Hi Charles,

I have pondered about this verse, And to tell you the truth, i am clueless as to it's exact meaning. Joe is right in that this event is ONE event, but is compartmental, it all happens at one time, over time.

Read Daniel chapter 11, 12 for some insight on this Great event to take place.

Even if one man is taken, and one man left, Dont you think the one man left, knows something is amiss?

I have barely scratched the surface of this parable, Whatever takes place, it will be amazing to witness.

Chris R

[Craig]

And we've also been taught to assume the chosen are taken, but what if they are the ones left?

In the days of Noah, Noah was left while the others where taken.

Craig

[chuckt]

the tarres are harvested first, these are the ones taken first!!

those eager to "fly" away are in for a real treat


be blessed
chuckt

[Kat]

Here are some excerpts from Ray's 'Rapture' article  

http://bible-truths.com/rapture.htm ----------------------------

 If by the "air" it is speaking of the literal air in our atmosphere (rather than to the jurisdiction of power said to be in the air in Eph. 2:2, which is more likely), then there are at least three proofs that this meeting in Matt. 24 takes place in the same "air" as I Thes. 4. Read Matt. 24:31 carefully:

"And He shall be dispatching His messengers with a loud sounding trumpet, and they shall be assembling His chosen from the four WINDS ..." (Mat. 24:31). Webster’s wind, moving AIR! (Emphasis mine).

"... and they shall see the Son of Mankind coming on the clouds of heaven with Power and much glory" (Mat. 24:30). Clouds are only found "in the air." Even fog is still "in the air." No clouds rise righter than "the air."

Although it doesn’t actually say that Christ came from outer space to then be located on the clouds of heaven, many, nonetheless, assume such a thing. Regardless, wind is in heaven, clouds are in heaven, and air is in heaven. To come from any of them requires being "in the air." And as all astronauts know it is not possible to return to earth without going through "the air." There may be "holes" in the ozone, but there are no holes "in the air."


We can learn something remarkable from the way that God uses the word "meet" in this Scripture.

"Thereupon we, the living who are surviving, shall at the same time be snatched away together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air." (I Thes. 4:17).

Now I am almost sure that I can hear faint protests in the distance from objecting rapturists. Notwithstanding, based on all the usage's of this word apatesis [to meet], and we read them all, when someone went out to meet someone else, where did they always go next? That’s right, back where they came from. So if God is consistent with the use of this word, then when the saints of I Thes. 4 meet the Lord in the air, they will then return with Christ back to the EARTH!
v
v
v
FROM WHERE DO WE JUDGE?

"Or are you not aware that the saints shall judge THE WORLD? And if the world is being judged by you, are you unworthy of the least tribunals? Are you not aware that we shall be judging MESSENGERS, not to mention life’s affairs?" Notice that the same "you" and "we" are to judge the "world" AND "messengers." And the judging of messengers is linked with judging "life’s affairs." "Life’s affairs is not something going on in OUTER SPACE! Life’s affairs are things on the earth, which is the same location at which we will be "judging messengers!" And these two judgments are not separated by thousands of years.

I have never gone into outer space, however, guess what? I have and still do wrestle creatures among the celestials! "... for it is not ours to wrestle with blood and flesh, but with the sovereignties, with the authorities, with the world mights of this darkness, with spiritual forces of wickedness AMONG THE CELESTIALS" (Eph. 6:12)! Now think for a moment, if we can right here and now, from the earth, wrestle with creatures among the celestials, why can’t we also judge and instruct them as well, FROM THE EARTH?

When Christ returns to set up His kingdom on earth, He brings the place of authority or rulership that He has prepared for the apostles with Him so that "... where I am, YOU ALSO MAY BE" (John 14:3). During Christ’s reign on earth His apostles will be WITH THE LORD. Now notice I Thes. 4:17 where it is stated that when Christ returns to the Gentile saints "... thus shall we always be together WITH THE LORD ..." We also will be with the Lord on the earth, not in outer space.

There is much that could be said regarding how Christ actually comes and what He will do after He arrives. Will He literally ride out of Heaven on a flying white horse with fire shooting out of His eyes and a long sword coming out of His mouth followed by literal armies ready to do battle against the few remaining and helpless humans on earth, and all this happening while the lightning is flashing and silver trumpets are blasting? Probably NOT. But, just like the rest of Revelation, the things that these symbols, metaphors, and figurative language represent will certainly be GLORIOUS, but that’s a subject for another paper. Remember that we have God’s promise that the wise shall understand. We all need to pray for wisdom, that’s for sure.
--------------------------------------------------

there is so much to consider here, hope this helps our understanding on this subject.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[rocky]

I was thinking more on the resurrection and this question, and thought of this verse.

Rom 5:10  For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

One Death, One LIFE, ONE Resurrection

[DuluthGA]

Supporting my earlier post bringing up Ray and his description of the Disney World vacation is this link Kat brought out on the April  07 thread of this subject where he states two resurrections: 

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1883.0.html

Segment:  In other words only God's chosen elect few will experience these things in this life and be resurrection to immortality with a spiritual body in the first resurrection., The rest of humanity which has died once PHYSICALLY,  will be resurrected in the second resurrection in which they too will have to spiritually die to their old carnal man and be made righteous (Isa. 26:9).

I don't know why this is so intriguing to me, but it is!  Will keep at it.

Janice

[CEO]

Janice

     It intrigues me too.  Deut. 16:16 commands all the men three times a year to appear before the 'Lord your God' by attending three festivals.  If each festival is symbolic and prophetic of the resurrections then here is the order:

1) Passover, also wavesheaf or unleavened bread

2)Firstfruits (feast of weeks)

3)Ingathering (tabernacles)

Christ is the passover, the elect are the firstfruits, all others are the great harvest, the feast of tabernacles.

The order of the feasts could represent the order of the resurrections- early spring , spring , and fall.  Christ, elect, all others.

Minds richer than mine can go in depth of Deut. 16:16 with ALL men , three festivals denoting completeness, appearing before God (resurrection?), at the place He chooses (whose choice?), festivals are a time for joy and celebration as the big party the father threw for the prodigal?

Anyway I know I got this stuff from reading Ray and it sure is fun.

                                            Askseeknock

                                            Charles O