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[hillsbororiver]

As it so often happens in researching one subject to veer off into something else, often multiple things. I found the following Scripture to be incredibly descriptive in regard to His called since the establishment of the early (1st century) church, although the first eight verses are from the OT and speak directly to physical Israel we can see that in "Acts" (Luke?) used the same terminology with the church(es) of his time and I am sure to the future church(es) as well.

Do these verses speak anything to you?

Exo 32:9  And the LORD said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:

Exo 33:3  Unto a land flowing with milk and honey: for I will not go up in the midst of thee; for thou art a stiffnecked people: lest I consume thee in the way.

Exo 33:5  For the LORD had said unto Moses, Say unto the children of Israel, Ye are a stiffnecked people: I will come up into the midst of thee in a moment, and consume thee: therefore now put off thy ornaments from thee, that I may know what to do unto thee.

Exo 34:9  And he said, If now I have found grace in thy sight, O Lord, let my Lord, I pray thee, go among us; for it is a stiffnecked  people; and pardon our iniquity and our sin, and take us for thine inheritance.

Deu 9:6  Understand therefore, that the LORD thy God giveth thee not this good land to possess it for thy righteousness; for thou art a stiffnecked people.

Deu 9:13  Furthermore the LORD spoke unto me, saying, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:

Deu 10:16  Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

2Ch 30:8  Now be ye not stiffnecked, as your fathers were, but yield yourselves unto the LORD, and enter into his sanctuary, which he hath sanctified forever: and serve the LORD your God, that the fierceness of his wrath may turn away from you.

Act 7:51  Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

*stiffnecked

Hebrew

H7185
קשׁה
qâshâh
kaw-shaw'
A primitive root; properly to be dense, that is, tough or severe (in various applications): - be cruel, be fiercer, make grievous, be ([ask a], be in, have, seem, would) hard (-en, [labour], -ly, thing), be sore, (be, make) stiff (-en, [-necked]).


Greek

G4644
σκληροτράχηλος
sklērotrachēlos
sklay-rot-rakh'-ah-los
From G4642 and G5137; hard naped, that is, (figuratively) obstinate: - stiffnecked.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

[Robin]

Guilty!

Those scriptures are perfect. The circumcision of the heart removes the rebellion. I have always been a strong willed, rebellious, stubborn person. God has been knocking me down to size for many years now and I still have rebellion within me. My carnal mind does not die without a fight.

God always wins. I can count on that.

[ciy]

That is a great group of verses Joe. 

I love doing word studies and just reading through the different verses that contain those words.  Word studies have given me some of my major revelations in the Word. 

We are a stiffnecked people proud and full of ourselves.  It is that pride that is so hard to purge out and it keeps us separated from God.  I love where it says be circumcised in the heart and be stiffnecked no more.  It is a matter of the heart from the inside out.  Which is so hard to do.

It reminds me of a golf swing.  If one just concentrates on making a good swing through the ball and trust the club to do what it is designed to do, then you can hit a good shot.  It is just that we are not wired that way.  We will, in the twinkling of an eye, jerk or twist or do something to try to guide the ball or make it get up quicker, etc.  We just cannot bring ourselves to trust the club.  Same with God we just cannot bring ourselves to trust from the inside out we have to try to help it from the outside in and we fall right back into being a stiffnecked pharisee instead of just letting go and trusting God.

Great God.  Great plan.
CIY

[ciy]

This is my last post on the Message bible today, but I cannot get over how this reads and how it applies and shows the condition that the stiffnecked people end up.  The amazing thing is that it is where we are today.  It is so clear.

Hosea 4
No One Is Faithful

   1 -3 Attention all Israelites! God's Message!
    God indicts the whole population: "No one is faithful. No one loves.
   No one knows the first thing about God. All this cussing and lying and killing, theft and loose sex,
   sheer anarchy, one murder after another! And because of all this, the very land itself weeps
   and everything in it is grief-stricken— animals in the fields and birds on the wing,
   even the fish in the sea are listless, lifeless.

   4 -10 "But don't look for someone to blame.
   No finger pointing! You, priest, are the one in the dock.
   You stumble around in broad daylight, And then the prophets take over and stumble all night.
   Your mother is as bad as you. My people are ruined
   because they don't know what's right or true. Because you've turned your back on knowledge,
   I've turned my back on you priests. Because you refuse to recognize the revelation of God,
   I'm no longer recognizing your children. The more priests, the more sin.
   They traded in their glory for shame. They pig out on my people's sins.
   They can't wait for the latest in evil. The result: You can't tell the people from the priests,
   the priests from the people. I'm on my way to make them both pay
   and take the consequences of the bad lives they've lived. They'll eat and be as hungry as ever,
   have sex and get no satisfaction. They walked out on me, their God,
   for a life of rutting with whores.

They Make a Picnic Out of Religion   

   11 -14 "Wine and whiskey
   leave my people in a stupor. They ask questions of a dead tree,
   expect answers from a sturdy walking stick. Drunk on sex, they can't find their way home.
   They've replaced their God with their genitals. They worship on the tops of mountains,
   make a picnic out of religion. Under the oaks and elms on the hills
   they stretch out and take it easy. Before you know it, your daughters are whores
   and the wives of your sons are sleeping around. But I'm not going after your whoring daughters
   or the adulterous wives of your sons. It's the men who pick up the whores that I'm after,
   the men who worship at the holy whorehouses—
   a stupid people, ruined by whores!

   15 -19 "You've ruined your own life, Israel—
   but don't drag Judah down with you! Don't go to the sex shrine at Gilgal,
   don't go to that sin city Bethel, Don't go around saying 'God bless you' and not mean it,
   taking God's name in vain. Israel is stubborn as a mule.
   How can God lead him like a lamb to open pasture? Ephraim is addicted to idols.
   Let him go. When the beer runs out,
   it's sex, sex, and more sex. Bold and sordid debauchery—
   how they love it! The whirlwind has them in its clutches.
   Their sex-worship leaves them finally impotent."

These verses are so powerful in any translation, but they are just so good in this translation.  Thank God that He has given us eyes and ears to see and hear.  Now let's encourage each other to be faithful till the end.
CIY

[mrsnacks]

It is true that we must be given eyes to see and ears to hear. So why is that we are frustrated and get upset if others don't see and hear ? Even if we are the ones who are blind. If we are stiffnecked then isn't that meant to be ? Isn't God the first cause ? We are just the clay and God is the Potter. The clay does nothing but be. We are in His hands. He is forming us. Someone stated that the circumcision of the heart is a hard thing to do. But is it for us to do ? I am confused a little on the comments here. It is my understanding that one cannot perfect himself. We can not do anything . IT is Christ living in us and we must die to the flesh. But llok at Paul's conversion. It was instantaneous. But there still was a process for him to go through.
Do we need encouragement for us to endure to the end ? I mean if we are elect than we will. If not then we won't ? Only God knows and God is in control. 
Yes we have a hard time trusting God. But are we able to ? Only if He gives us whatever to trust Him more.
Jesus didn't do anything on His own. It was the Father in Him. So if we are struggling with anything in our lives than it is meant to be there and it is meant for us to struggle and in His own time we shall overcome.
But it is in His time. Just some thought.

[Kat]

Hi mrsnacks,

what you say is true.

It is my understanding that one cannot perfect himself. We can not do anything . IT is Christ living in us and we must die to the flesh.
So if we are struggling with anything in our lives than it is meant to be there and it is meant for us to struggle and in His own time we shall overcome.

Thought we will do what is God's will, but the thing is, we don't know if we are one of the few chosen to endure to the end. 

Philippians 2:13  "For it is God who works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure."

So God will do it, He works in you to will and to do.  But in verse 12 it says, "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."  Because we don't know for sure, maybe it is the unknown that makes us get frustrated with others and even ourself, if you see what I mean.  We continue to move forward with fear and trembling, but with HOPE in running the race set before, because we don't know the outcome.

Heb 12:1  Therefore since we also are surrounded with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight and the sin which so easily besets us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
v. 2  looking to Jesus the Author and Finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and sat down at the right of the throne of God.

mercy, peace ad love
Kat

[Robin]

Hi mrsnacks,

In my experience the circumcision of my heart has been very painful and hard to endure. This does not mean that I had anything at all to do with it. I believe it is all of God and all I can do is tell the truth about what he shows me about myself and confess it. Then he leads me to repentance. All is of him. I struggled for too long before learning truth and I know I can't do it or see and hear truth unless it is given to me.

Luke 12:
 47And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

 48But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

There is a price to the circumcision of heart. It might mean living alone for the rest of your life or living with no material belongings. It may mean you walk away from friends and family. It may mean you have no attachments to anything of this world and are just a visitor in a land that doesn't belong to you. It may mean you have no home to call your own. It may mean you live with physical health issues or physical pain. It may mean you suffer and endure mental anguish.

Luke 14:33
So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

These things are hard to do even though it is all of God and not anything we do to cause it. He causes the circumstances that are used to circumcise our hearts. He causes us to be able to do his will. He gives us the ability to endure hardship. Much is required of us because much is given to us. He drags us and gives us the faith to endure and believe.

I am the one doing even though he is dragging and causing what I do. He causes me to confess and I confess. He causes me to repent and I repent. He causes me to let go of the idols and I let go. That can be very painful. He causes my suffering and I'm the one who suffers. He opens my eyes to see and I see the truth. He opens my ears to hear and I hear the truth.

There have been many times I could not endure without the help of others. I think this may even be a part of learning humility. I've always been one to do everything myself. I think it is part of God's plan to need each other even though there are times he causes us to walk alone.

Matthew 18:20
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

1 Corinthians 1:21
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

Ephesians 4:
11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13Till we all come in the unity of the faith,and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

[mrsnacks]

Thanks for the input.

I have just gone through ( and still going through ) Some very painful experiences. Being not welcomed in the church I have been attending. I was involved in the worship as musician and being asked to teach as well. My intention going there was the possibility of bringing God's truths to Babylon in a small way. And God has used me. A few have come out. One was kicked out as well. I won't get into details but the door was open and I was asked to give input on some of the doctrines of the church at a get together. I was honest. And this caused a spiritual earthquake. So now I am not welcome. Also very rough moments with my own family as well occured because of this.

So I am labeled as a troublemaker. A divisive person. The reality is I don't hold to their doctrines. But I am a peacemaker. I didn't let anyone know the truth until I was asked. Then the floodgates of God's truths were unleashed. And 2 friends came out of Babylon and I am holding Bible studies with them. And they are so open.

So praise God. He is using me. BUt the cost has been great. 

Other things in my life have gone bananas. And I have thought I am not going to make it enduring to the end. The lake of Fire is my destination. I say that because all of us don't have what it takes. I have so many things to overcome. So many obstacles.The circumcision of my heart is too hard. I can't live alone for the rest of my life. So maybe most of us aren't cut out as elect. I love the Lord and want to obey Him and please Him but I am so marred. I am just being real. Being in the elect is great but I come up too short. IT is not that I want to sin. I don't. IT is just that I am not so together in many ways. So all will be saved anyway eventually right ? So I will make it . And if I am beaten with  few or many stripes there is nothing I can do about it. You sound like you suffered a lot MG.

[Chris R]

Hi Joe,

 Deu 9:5  Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land:

It occurred to me, That Christendom teaches the EXACT opposite of this verse, Isn't it a fact that the majority of prosperity gospel ministers teach that God gives us land because of our righteousness?

Not true, It is Despite our stiffnecked ways, God has given to us our lands and our possesions.

Hi MG, Mrsnacks

Don't be to hard on yourself, Heck, we all have times of sorrow, pain, misery.
There is a time for everything, and everything has its time. Though we be a stiffnecked people, We are still Gods greatest Creation, And he loves us.

Christ said these words..They are marvelous words, Perhaps the most wondrous words ever spoken.

All that the Father giveth me SHALL COME to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.   For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

So then, What is the will of the one who sent Christ?

  And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose NOTHING, but should raise it up again at the last day. [John 6:37-39]

So i ask you, Of all those whom God has given To the Lord, HOW MANY WILL HE LOSE?

That's right!..Zero, Zilch, Nadda, not even one!

Notice, They "SHALL COME TO ME"..We don't get to choose, These are ordained from the beginning, and THEY SHALL COME.

Worrying over whether or not WE are one of those that SHALL COME TO HIM, is useless, Now think about the verses Joe started this thread with.

Deu 9:6  Understand therefore, that the LORD thy God giveth thee not this good land to possess it for thy righteousness; for thou art a stiffnecked people.


Not for THY righteousness, OR FOR the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land:

IT DOESNT MATTER IF YOU T-H-I-N-K your qualified OR NOT, Nor does it matter how GOOD you think you are, OR wish you were.

WE ARE C-H-O-S-E-N........WE DONT CHOOSE...It's just that simple.

Peace

Chris R





 

[hillsbororiver]

Guilty!

 

Me too!

Thank you everyone for the great responses, I definitely saw myself here and thought I would share this observation.

There was a time a few years back when I would read the OT and wonder how the people of Israel could be so cavalier about the things that God was doing in their midst, I mean the Cloud following them around, the manna, all the miracles like parting the Red Sea and yet the first chance they get they build a golden calf and go back to the pagan mythology they had come out of. I would think how could they be so stubborn, so stupid?

It was only a couple years ago (since "stumbling" onto Bible Truths) that the OT began to open up to me and I started seeing the spiritual applications of these Scriptures and I really began to see myself in the things the prophets, these men of old wrote about, especially the lack of faith, the weaknesses and the stubborness. Of course we can all relate to the trials and tribulations as well.

Thank you all again,

Joe
 

[dogcombat]

Overall I think we should be thankful that we have a Heavenly Father who gives us what we DON'T deserve.  Think about it. 

How many of us have left our First Love?

How many have thought our "being good" can influence God?

How many of us once "LOOVED" the concept of eternal torture?

Yet, despite these and other "idols of the heart"  (for out of our hearts proceed deceitfulness.....Mark 7:12),  God has foreknown whom he would grant repentance to.  That's why I think we have a hard time with being humbled by His grace and purpose.  For we don't understand how we can't overcome being stiffnecked and carnal on our own strength.

Ches

Ches 

[Deborah-Leigh]

Our compliance, alignment and favor for the lie that we have free will, I believe is the root cause of our self assurance, self abasement, self approval and self disgust, self deception and self reliance.

Once this lie of free will is removed, then we see that God is God and as Chris R said so astutely THEN we will realise, come to know, understand and deeply appreciate that we are C-H-O-S-E-N ...WE DON'T CHOOSE.

What a RELIEF THAT IS!

Peace to you

Arcturus