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Author Topic: Something Important I Believe We All Need To Discuss...  (Read 7728 times)

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love_magnified

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Something Important I Believe We All Need To Discuss...
« Reply #20 on: April 24, 2006, 09:29:58 PM »

I would love to be in your position Origen. Amen. Wear it like a badge. You are a witness against lies.
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Harryfeat

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Something Important I Believe We All Need To Discuss...
« Reply #21 on: April 25, 2006, 05:25:18 PM »

Hello,

In my opinion the existence and nature of evil is no different than man himself.  In essence, God is creating everything.  What God wills... is, was and will be.  

The whole idea that evil is a bad thing seems to stem from the concept of free will. We do not fathom one iota of understanding of God.  

The conceptual argument of how can a loving God cause such human suffering appears primarily at its core a functional  belief in a free will.   If you believe that you do not have a free will then why would you possibly believe that anything else that God is creating would have one.  Evil is here at God's will.  Evil does as God wills it to do. Evil is a funcion of God's "plan" or will just as we are.  

If there is someone out there that can reveal  God and  explain God's plan to me I would like to hear it.  The search for truth is an interesting process.  When does the search end? How much of scripture must we  try to understand after we discover and believe in the doctrine of Christ?

For those of us who believe in Christ, there is the path of love has been laid out for us.  The rest of the arguments about free will, hell, and any other misconceptions about who we are and what  God's plan  is just don't seem relevant.  At least, not to me.

feat
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Origen II

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Something Important I Believe We All Need To Discuss...
« Reply #22 on: April 25, 2006, 11:00:01 PM »

Well...I have a really interesting theory to propose.

However, I'm still trying to understand the nature of God in His dealing with the Israelites.

It does seem contradictory towards how Christ taught us.
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alucard

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Something Important I Believe We All Need To Discuss...
« Reply #23 on: April 25, 2006, 11:13:09 PM »

Origen II don't be fooled by that site i've seen and it does make good points to church going christians but they take a lot out of context plus everything back then was for us to learn from and to fullfill the law through christ if i said that right and even back then there was some symbolism such as (he who does not honor his mother and father shall be put to death) was never carried out and theres still a lot you need to learn to fully understand
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Harryfeat

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Something Important I Believe We All Need To Discuss...
« Reply #24 on: April 26, 2006, 05:10:52 AM »

Quote from: Origen II
Well...I have a really interesting theory to propose.

However, I'm still trying to understand the nature of God in His dealing with the Israelites.

It does seem contradictory towards how Christ taught us.


Hello Origen II,

What is your theory you want to propose?


I didn't mean to turn off discussion by my post.  It just seems that sometimes when you boil down things to what you believe are most important, it puts a whole different perspective on things without sometimes getting bogged down in details.

I really never understood the ruthlessness in the old testament.  I usually got the idea that the Isrealites got the cocky attitude that "with God on my side I can do whatever I damn well please".  It seemed to be a lesson to me more about pride and false priorities and political rules out the whazoo to keep everyone in line.  A child learns fairly quickly to keep their hands out of the fire or they will get burned. Its seems to be all physical stuff, very little of the spirit.


As far as what humans do/did to humans vis a vis rape, plunder and pillaging, etc. how much better/worse is that then everyone in the world but Noah and his group being drowned like rats or the entire habitants of two cities save Lot and his group, men, women and yes babies, being showered with fire and brimestone?  What's the plan?

Seriously,  what is your theory?

feat
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Origen II

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Something Important I Believe We All Need To Discuss...
« Reply #25 on: April 27, 2006, 02:49:04 AM »

Quote from: Harryfeat
Quote from: Origen II
Well...I have a really interesting theory to propose.

However, I'm still trying to understand the nature of God in His dealing with the Israelites.

It does seem contradictory towards how Christ taught us.


Hello Origen II,

What is your theory you want to propose?


I didn't mean to turn off discussion by my post.  It just seems that sometimes when you boil down things to what you believe are most important, it puts a whole different perspective on things without sometimes getting bogged down in details.

I really never understood the ruthlessness in the old testament.  I usually got the idea that the Isrealites got the cocky attitude that "with God on my side I can do whatever I damn well please".  It seemed to be a lesson to me more about pride and false priorities and political rules out the whazoo to keep everyone in line.  A child learns fairly quickly to keep their hands out of the fire or they will get burned. Its seems to be all physical stuff, very little of the spirit.


As far as what humans do/did to humans vis a vis rape, plunder and pillaging, etc. how much better/worse is that then everyone in the world but Noah and his group being drowned like rats or the entire habitants of two cities save Lot and his group, men, women and yes babies, being showered with fire and brimestone?  What's the plan?

Seriously,  what is your theory?

feat


Well, first off I don't really see any "ruthelessness" in the Old Testament when looking at the Israelites. Not only does the Torah outline morality in the Israelite community and their care for other people, but the historical books in the OT expound on these events and show even more reasons as to why the Israelites did many of the things they did.

After finally researching these incidents in full (when I entered Evilbible I wasn't completely aware of these reasons, thus why I may have lost the debate overall), I have concluded that the Israelites were acting in the best interest of their survival as well as the survival of others.

While they did indeed live in a Patriarichal society..to say that they abused or disrespected women based on this culturual perspective is really grasping and doing injustice to the details.

We can get into that later, though.


My overall theory I call "The Theory of Dual Concepts". Basically it suggest that things cannot be understood completely, recognized, or even considered significant without their necessary counterparts. We cannot know "Good" without "Evil", nor can we recognize any of them without it's counterpart.

If we lived in a world where there was only happiness, and there was never such a thing as sadness or anything counter to happiness, then happiness would not exist. Happiness would merely be a feeling that is neither significant, understandable, or has any value.

The same with Good and Evil. What is Good without Evil? What is Evil without Good?

You cannot say that we can have a world with one and not the other if we never knew what both were to begin with.

Thus the perfect argument in solving the 'Problem' we call Evil.
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Harryfeat

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Something Important I Believe We All Need To Discuss...
« Reply #26 on: April 27, 2006, 05:08:09 AM »

Quote from: Origen II


My overall theory I call "The Theory of Dual Concepts". Basically it suggest that things cannot be understood completely, recognized, or even considered significant without their necessary counterparts. We cannot know "Good" without "Evil", nor can we recognize any of them without it's counterpart.

If we lived in a world where there was only happiness, and there was never such a thing as sadness or anything counter to happiness, then happiness would not exist. Happiness would merely be a feeling that is neither significant, understandable, or has any value.

The same with Good and Evil. What is Good without Evil? What is Evil without Good?

You cannot say that we can have a world with one and not the other if we never knew what both were to begin with.

Thus the perfect argument in solving the 'Problem' we call Evil.



I believe that Ray also touches on your theory as well in his writings.  

Is it  kind of a theory of opposites like there is no up if down doesn't exist?  How does this solve a PROBLEM we call evil?  There is scripture stating that God created evil.    Without light there is darkness, can the same  be said about good and evil? Can they exist separately?



To me, good and evil are concepts of the physical world and the carnal mind.  For example, if you were in a constant state of bliss, would good/evil, light/darkness etc make any difference, be of importance  or even hold any meaning.

Aside from the obvious definition as the opposite of good, can you define evil in its most basic form?


feat
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Origen II

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Something Important I Believe We All Need To Discuss...
« Reply #27 on: April 27, 2006, 05:46:41 AM »

Quote from: Harryfeat
Quote from: Origen II


My overall theory I call "The Theory of Dual Concepts". Basically it suggest that things cannot be understood completely, recognized, or even considered significant without their necessary counterparts. We cannot know "Good" without "Evil", nor can we recognize any of them without it's counterpart.

If we lived in a world where there was only happiness, and there was never such a thing as sadness or anything counter to happiness, then happiness would not exist. Happiness would merely be a feeling that is neither significant, understandable, or has any value.

The same with Good and Evil. What is Good without Evil? What is Evil without Good?

You cannot say that we can have a world with one and not the other if we never knew what both were to begin with.

Thus the perfect argument in solving the 'Problem' we call Evil.



I believe that Ray also touches on your theory as well in his writings.  

Is it  kind of a theory of opposites like there is no up if down doesn't exist?  How does this solve a PROBLEM we call evil?  There is scripture stating that God created evil.    Without light there is darkness, can the same  be said about good and evil? Can they exist separately?



To me, good and evil are concepts of the physical world and the carnal mind.  For example, if you were in a constant state of bliss, would good/evil, light/darkness etc make any difference, be of importance  or even hold any meaning.

Aside from the obvious definition as the opposite of good, can you define evil in its most basic form?


feat



Well...to tell you the truth, one of the reasons I really listened to Ray's teachings was because we both agreed on these points. Before I even came here I pondered this theory and I felt it made sense.

Also, by adopting this theory there is no longer a 'problem' of evil, but a necessity (ableit temporary).

I do not see good and evil as carnal...because God obviously knew about these things and had this knowledge before allowing Adam and Eve to know about it.

Good and Evil are concepts that are foundational for awareness and knowledge...they are not born from the carnal nature.
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Harryfeat

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Something Important I Believe We All Need To Discuss...
« Reply #28 on: April 27, 2006, 03:27:15 PM »

Quote from: Origen II

Also, by adopting this theory there is no longer a 'problem' of evil, but a necessity (ableit temporary).

I do not see good and evil as carnal...because God obviously knew about these things and had this knowledge before allowing Adam and Eve to know about it.

Good and Evil are concepts that are foundational for awareness and knowledge...they are not born from the carnal nature.


I disagree with you in that I still say that the concepts of good and evil are  understood by us with our carnal minds.  The existence of good and evil is part of God's plan.  Our knowledge of these is at best carnal.

God's creation of evil and His knowledge of same is not something that I believe is completely comprehensible to us as humans. We cannot fathom their meaning other than through our carnal minds.

  God created light.  Did He create darkness or does light overcome the darkness.  God created evil. Does evil relate to good in the same way as light and darkness?

I still ask the question, what is your definition of evil in its most basic form?

feat
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Origen II

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Something Important I Believe We All Need To Discuss...
« Reply #29 on: April 27, 2006, 06:51:55 PM »

Quote from: Harryfeat
Quote from: Origen II

Also, by adopting this theory there is no longer a 'problem' of evil, but a necessity (ableit temporary).

I do not see good and evil as carnal...because God obviously knew about these things and had this knowledge before allowing Adam and Eve to know about it.

Good and Evil are concepts that are foundational for awareness and knowledge...they are not born from the carnal nature.


I disagree with you in that I still say that the concepts of good and evil are  understood by us with our carnal minds.  The existence of good and evil is part of God's plan.  Our knowledge of these is at best carnal.

God's creation of evil and His knowledge of same is not something that I believe is completely comprehensible to us as humans. We cannot fathom their meaning other than through our carnal minds.

  God created light.  Did He create darkness or does light overcome the darkness.  God created evil. Does evil relate to good in the same way as light and darkness?

I still ask the question, what is your definition of evil in its most basic form?

feat


Destruction.
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love_magnified

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Something Important I Believe We All Need To Discuss...
« Reply #30 on: April 27, 2006, 06:54:58 PM »

Anything opposed to God.
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orion77

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Something Important I Believe We All Need To Discuss...
« Reply #31 on: April 27, 2006, 07:08:29 PM »

Evil is subtle and deceptive.  Speaks truth mixed with lies.  And when we are ignorant as to who the beast is, we are being fed  daily on evil.  When we think this life we have is OURS and that God can or will not mess with freewill, we put this thing called SELF in the seat or throne of Gods Holy Spirit.  I think that is a great evil in the eyes of God.  There are many things to overcome in this life, the beast (self), is foremost, because we can not see clearly the spiritual things of God, while we sit in His throne.

God will and must bring us to the utmost point of futility before we can actually see these truths.  This is a walk that only few in each generation, by the will of God, will partake of.  But in the end, all will, each in his own time.  

The whole book of Job answers this question.  We have all eaten of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.  Yet, we are not as God, we are made weak and sinners.  The devil devours our flesh, while we think the control is ours.  We can do nothing in ourselves and noone, no not one does good, while we sit in the throne of God.  Until God brings us to the point of Job, and repent in dust and ashes, then we go beyond the hearing of God and move into the seeing of God.  Big, big difference.  Gods ways are tough, but just and righteous into creating men and women into His image.

For me, I know the me, myself and I cannot please God.  I've tried and tried and failed and failed miserably.  Until I let Him take over His rightful throne, I am nothing...I thank God to the end of time for bringing me through the mire and the fires, it has brought about the greatest changes.

Sorry, you all, I get going like an energizer bunny, can't stop.   :lol:  8)

God bless,

Gary
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rvhill

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Something Important I Believe We All Need To Discuss...
« Reply #32 on: April 27, 2006, 08:00:11 PM »

if Good is agape( selflss Love), then Evil is ampathy
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Gill

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Something Important I Believe We All Need To Discuss...
« Reply #33 on: April 27, 2006, 08:05:03 PM »

A few thoughts ...

I can well understand peoples' objections to parts of the old testament.  Yes i can accept that they are carnal objections.  Some of the commands given to the Israelites by God (to my carnal mind) seem at best offensive and at worst downright cruel.  

At times, when i really think about it, it even seems 'lame' to me that it was all necessary just for the admonition of those who would be under the new covenant.  How to explain that it was fine and dandy and all part of God's plan for the Israelites to invade other nations.  How to justify the violence.  Don't we condemn it today?  Holy wars ~ religions have a lot to answer for ...but how to really understand why they were necessary (regarding the Israelites) for the progression of God's plan.

I know that someone may well respond and tell me that it's a shadow or 'type' of how we're supposed to regard and treat sins/idols in our own lives but ...wow.  Heh, please believe me when i say that this isn't as ranty as it is probably coming across ~ just something i have a hard time grasping.  God willing, i'll understand it one day but maybe not in this age.  

I certainly wouldn't know where to start to help explain and maybe even justify ( :oops: ) these things to someone else.  And it does get raised in conversations with people.  Hell and the old testament are two big gripes to those who are looking to be convinced that God is love.  One is fully debunked for me ...the latter ~ for now i accept that it's my carnal mind that's the problem.  Which i will repent of one way or another.

Debra, thanks for sharing your thoughts.  The idea that some of these actions may have been done from a mercifull point of view gives me a bit more in my arsenal against becoming all bitter and twisted over it  ](*,) .
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Harryfeat

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Something Important I Believe We All Need To Discuss...
« Reply #34 on: April 27, 2006, 11:17:06 PM »

Quote from: Origen II
Quote from: Harryfeat


I still ask the question, what is your definition of evil in its most basic form?

feat


Destruction.


I am not sure I understand what you mean by evil=destruction.  Destruction of what?


Does that mean that in your theory of dual concepts that good=construction?



I kind of had this notion that the basis of evil might in essence be  deceit.

I sometimes get all caught up in details like... can a human be evil if God created evil as something separate from humans?  

Anyhow, please help me with the destruction concept.


feat
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Origen II

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Something Important I Believe We All Need To Discuss...
« Reply #35 on: April 29, 2006, 05:18:54 PM »

Quote from: Harryfeat
Quote from: Origen II
Quote from: Harryfeat


I still ask the question, what is your definition of evil in its most basic form?

feat


Destruction.


I am not sure I understand what you mean by evil=destruction.  Destruction of what?


Does that mean that in your theory of dual concepts that good=construction?



I kind of had this notion that the basis of evil might in essence be  deceit.

I sometimes get all caught up in details like... can a human be evil if God created evil as something separate from humans?  

Anyhow, please help me with the destruction concept.


feat


The universe displays this concept rather well...with Entropy.

Evil = destruction (in a general sense).

Good = Construction (or productivity in a sense)

Sin = missing the mark of God's calling




In the cycle of the of the universe, matter is neither created nor destroyed (ultimately). When one thing is 'destroyed' it forms into something else. When a fire burns down a forest, it allows the land to become more fertile, thus producing more trees later on and helping the environment.

The concepts Good and Evil are essentially the same. The concepts recquire one another in order for the other one to become essential or significant. They feed off one another.

God has dictated that "Good" shall overcome Evil one day, but that is only when Evil has finished it's purpose and there is nothing left to destroy.
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Phil

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evil in the OT
« Reply #36 on: April 30, 2006, 02:47:17 AM »

When I debate this issue, I tell the person claiming that God is barbaric that they are questioning the actions of the Creator of the universe.  He has His reasons.  His ways are not our ways.
I refer them to the end of Job...
I ask them if they know better than God...
We look at some of those instructions He gave to His people in the OT as cruel at times.  But that is how WE view the world through our human perspective.  We have absolutely no idea what goes through God's mind.  We may get a glimpse with the leading of the Holy Spirit...which helps us see the beauty in all of God's precepts...

Anyway, that's how I see it.
Blessings
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