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Author Topic: Proclaimations of Love  (Read 10995 times)

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hillsbororiver

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Proclaimations of Love
« on: September 05, 2007, 01:54:50 PM »

Hello Everyone,

I have been in a discussion with a brother who disagrees with me on the matter of how we should proclaim or even if we are truly capable of “agape” unconditional love or charity early in our journey with God or is it for most of us a slow and steady progression as Peter appears to outline?
 

2Pe 1:5  And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
 
2Pe 1:6  And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
 
2Pe 1:7  And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

To me it looks like we start with the mustard seed of faith and through diligence and perseverance we get a down payment (earnest (2Cor 1:22, 2Cor 5:5) of His Spirit that begins the change in our hearts, we are capable (through His Spirit) to experience this emotion in doses, increasing as He increases in us. But is it truly a 24/7 part of our life, do we ever get to the place where we are perfect in these things while in the flesh? All the time under any circumstance? Actually I can only think of One Person who could make this claim.

1.   Faith
2.   Virtue
3.   Knowledge
4.   Temperance
5.   Patience
6.   Godliness
7.   Brotherly Kindness
8.   Charity

Charity26

G26
ἀγάπη
agapē
ag-ah'-pay
From G25; love, that is, affection or benevolence; specifically (plural) a love feast: - (feast of) charity ([-ably]), dear, love.
 



My point or question is who has perfect faith in this life, or virtue or any of the rest of these things? Charity (agape love) would seem to be the epitome of a Christ like person and not something we can freely will ourselves to do, can we be intemperate or impatient and still display or should I say truly have charity (agape love) in our hearts. Wouldn’t true charity culminate as a combination of the other things Peter mentions?

If a person has little problem continuing to publicly castigate other people or holds animosity toward some are they capable of agape love, charity?


 Jam 3:11  Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?

It was said to me that when one proclaims agape love that they are honestly following the command of Jesus to “love your brother”, I can definitely see that but does He not also command us to “sin no more” how many would claim to be following that command?

As Ray has pointed out before about adultery/lust, sure you can outwardly or physically not commit the act of adultery but who can say they never lust? These commands really show us how much in need of His Spirit we really are and until we get the full inheritance we will be lacking the ability to be perfect in His commandments, we will fail, fall and stumble. We must strive for all the things that the Lord has commanded not only paying attention to the things we might believe make us more attractive to others, seeking their praise and kind words.


Matthew Chapter 6 addresses this very thing;

      Matthew 6 (King James)

 1Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
 2Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
 3But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:
 4That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.
 5And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
 6But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

 
       Matthew 6 (Amplified Bible)

 1TAKE CARE not to do your good deeds publicly or before men, in order to be seen by them; otherwise you will have no reward [reserved for and awaiting you] with and from your Father Who is in heaven.
    2Thus, whenever you give to the poor, do not blow a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites in the synagogues and in the streets like to do, that they may be recognized and honored and praised by men. Truly I tell you, they have their reward in full already.
    3But when you give to charity, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing,
    4So that your deeds of charity may be in secret; and your Father Who sees in secret will reward you openly.
    5Also when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by people. Truly I tell you, they have their reward in full already.
    6But when you pray, go into your [most] private room, and, closing the door, pray to your Father, Who is in secret; and your Father, Who sees in secret, will reward you in the open.

Any thoughts or comments on this subject?

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

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YellowStone

  • Guest
Re: Proclaimations of Love
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2007, 02:16:53 PM »

Hi Joe,

I am short on time and this will not be able to give your question as in depth response as I would like.

But I feel that one can only begin to understand agape love, when one can love and recieve love without reason. When love is truly without condition, it becomes eternal, for it's existance is based on nothing but love itself.

Does one need to be perfect to achieve this love? I think that depends on who is being loved. My point is, I do not belive that I will ever be able to love God perfectly until I am perfect. However, unconditional love for one another is surely in our reach, even though it is difficult to touch and hold on too.

Just my thoughts, thanks Joe for a wonderful discussion.

Love in Christ,
Darren
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Proclaimations of Love
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2007, 02:43:19 PM »

Hi Darren,

You are welcome.

My point is we get a taste, a down payment on it, sometimes it can be overwhelming but at other times we are struggling in our flesh and we are not capable of this (agape love/charity) without His Spirit in charge, we must be empty of self, selfless.

Are we selfless when we are holding a grudge, being angry, jealous or contentious? Are we selfless saying things in public when we should be saying them in private?

There is no doubt when the Lord begets us spiritually we have an empathy for others that we more than likely did not have previously but I think some (like my friend) gets this confused with the most Christlike attribute one can possibly have, true selfless charity.

I think we are in agreement here and I appreciate your comments and input.

His Peace to you Brother,

Joe 

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josh

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Re: Proclaimations of Love
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2007, 03:54:41 PM »

Joe,

Excellent post. I'd like to read over it a few more times before I properly respond, but really... this was a great post for me to read this afternoon.

God's Peace.
Josh
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Kat

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Re: Proclaimations of Love
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2007, 04:28:59 PM »


Hi Joe,

This whole thing of love (agape - Phileo) is hard to come to a good understanding of it.  I have referred back to Ray 'Love' Bible study and have brought out some things that I think apply to what you are saying.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3719.0.html ---------

So this is the manner in which God loves the world, with agapao love.  A love that is undeserved, they’re not reciprocating, ok.  Let me give you another example of agapao love, not phileo love.  Agapao love is when they crucified Christ, and He was dying, He prayed to His Father and said, “Father forgive them, for they don’t know what they are doing.”  (Luke 23:34)  Now that’s agape love.
v
v
We can love our neighbor, with a agape love, we don’t need to fellowship, hobnob with them or become part of what they are, in any way, shape or form. 
v
v
But Christ said, "but I say unto you, love your enemies" - agapao your enemies. (Matt 5:44)

God said, I hate liars and people that cause discord and everything, yet I gave My own Son for the world.  Why?, because I agapao them.
God thinks beyond their couple of three score and ten years of hate and criminality.  I look beyond that, and I see their future - agapao.  Maybe we need to learn to do that too.  If we’re going to be like God, right.
v
v
Phileo not only means affectionate love and adoration, and fondness for fellow brothers or sisters, it means kiss, ok.  Because you kiss someone you’re fond of, that’s how close they are connected.

So God does not tell us, we have to phileo our enemies or that we have to phileo our next door neighbor.
Agapao is a more formal, it’s not a give and take, two-way street.  It’s a one-way street, forgiving humanity for the evil that they have.
v
v
For the whole world, we have to have this agapao love.  But no where does God say we have to phileo them, or love them with affection, like a brotherly love, where we would hug them or give them a kiss.
----------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

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skydreamers

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Re: Proclaimations of Love
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2007, 04:53:08 PM »

Quote
My point or question is who has perfect faith in this life, or virtue or any of the rest of these things? Charity (agape love) would seem to be the epitome of a Christ like person and not something we can freely will ourselves to do, can we be intemperate or impatient and still display or should I say truly have charity (agape love) in our hearts.

Hi Joe, you have a real knack for writing posts that make me have to look myself in the mirror and ask the hard questions!    :)  (This is good by the way!  ;))

The words that really jumped out at me were "intemperate or impatient".  Some days I feel like I have the patience of Job, and other days I feel like I'm going to snap if things don't progress the way I want them too.  Even with my own children who I love (phileo?) dearly, I can become ridiculously impatient...I hate this in myself!  But at the same time, I feel I also love (agape?) them in the way that is unconditional....I apologize for my outbursts (my five year old gets a kick out of this) and I certainly don't hold grudges against them or judge them.  Not only are they just children, but they are also carnal little people struggling to learn good in this world, just like me.  But I almost feel like there is nothing they could do that would permanently make me shut them out. 

That's why I don't understand why (ET believing) parents can't dig deeper and realize that if they feel this way about their own children, wouldn't God feel at least that much love towards His?  I certainly know that however much or in whatever way I love my children, it is nothing in comparison to the purity of God's love. 

Knowing and reminding myself that I don't understand the depths of God's love humbles me. 

But I do think that learning what I have these past years has given me a glimpse of His love, and my ability to see all of humanity as a whole, as being God's children who will all be brought into the fold, helps me to view even the seemingly vilest person with more empathy.  On a grand scale, I can think this way.  But in the microcosm of my life, it's not so easy....that guy who cuts me off in traffic for instance....I'm getting better (I don't outwardly express stuff...especially with my kids in the car.... ;)...but I can still feel it getting under my skin....it bugs me...know what I mean?)  Like  I said, patience is a problem for me and I feel like I want to instantly react when people are rude.  I keep having to remember to overcome the bad with good.  Sigh....such a long road ahead still.....

Peace,
Diana
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Proclaimations of Love
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2007, 05:14:49 PM »

Hello Josh, thanks and I look forward to your insights in regard to this subject.

Kat, Ray certainly cuts to the chase and expresses these things so clearly, yes I can see that some are really confusing phileo (I like you, you like me, I am nice to you, you are nice to me) kind of love with the love that Christ (and the Father) have for their creation. A huge difference. Thanks for adding that.

Hi Diana, many of the topics I start come from after looking in the (spiritual) mirror and not being exactly thrilled at what I see, but when I read the Scriptures I see that this is what we are to experience. We learn of Him, want to be like Him and follow His commands and then we promptly fall on our face as we try to replicate the spiritual with physical efforts.

Either we become comfortable with our fleshly impersonation of spiritual things or we become humbled realizing we cannot even do what we want without the Spirit of Christ holding us up. This I believe is what will eventually empty us of ourselves. If we start to believe we already possess what we really ought to be striving for then how hard will we be looking, or striving?

Thank you all for your responses!

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Proclaimations of Love
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2007, 05:37:10 PM »

Hello Joe


You ask : If a person has little problem continuing to publicly castigate other people or holds animosity toward some are they capable of agape love, charity?

Quoting Ray in his latest instalment Gehenna Fire Judgment : Does standing up for the  Truths of Jesus Christ bring more persecution, condemnation, and ridicule from your "Christian" brothers and sisters than you are willing to endure?

Is the person you mention who you say "has little problem continuing to publicly castigate other people" fit the description of being willing to endure persecution, condemnation and ridicule from his "Christian" brothers and sisters OR is the brother you mention against the person of his "Christian" brothers and sisters and willing for them to go to pagan Hell and desires to help them along the way?

IF the brother you mention believes in Hell then yes, I would agree that they are incapable of agape or phileo love because the Love of God is not apparently in them.

I personally do not believe that we are supposed to harm each other. Even Paul grieved and repented of hurting his brethren but latter was glad for the Godly outcome.

2Cor 7: 8 For even though I did GRIEVE YOU  with my letter, I do not regret it now, though I did regret it; for I see that that letter did pain you, though only for a little while; 9. Yet I am glad now, NOT BECAUSE YOU WERE PAINED, but because you were pained into repentance and so turned back to God; for you felt a grief such as God meant you to feel, so that in nothing you might suffer loss THROUGH US or harm FOR WHAT WE DID.  10 For Godly grief and the pain God is permitted to direct, produce a repentance that leads and contributes to salvation and deliverance from evil, and it never brings regret; but worldly grief is deadly....

I believe that the worldly who hate and do not believe in the Word of God, are already in pain and when they encounter a child of God, that pain just gets worse.

Perhaps you may find one maybe two thoughts in the above that might fit this particular episode you are experiencing with your brother. I believe it is also worth considering that the trials of our faith are not easy walks in the garden!

If any of this constructively applies to your expereince then I am rewarded. If not then I am rewarded to have been given the occasion to contemplate this difficult situation you have shared, as though it were mine.

Peace be to you both

Arcturus :)




 

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YellowStone

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Re: Proclaimations of Love
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2007, 06:08:09 PM »

Hi Joe,

I think you have really nailed it with what you wrote here.

There is no doubt when the Lord begets us spiritually we have an empathy for others that we more than likely did not have previously but I think some (like my friend) gets this confused with the most Christlike attribute one can possibly have, true selfless charity.

I feel true agape love is the removal of all desires to be right, to prove wrong, to hold or gain ground. Rather it is the EXACT opposite.

First it is to gain understanding so as to FIND agreement, even if one has to admit they were mistaken. It's not about holding back anger or frustration; rather, it is about NEVER feeling such thoughts. It's about being thankful, respectful and gracious for every moment spent. Agape love is not blind and neither does it seek to cover. Neither does it have motives or desires, nor is it selfish or selfless (being only capable of giving love but not recieving love).

Love cannot be just said: One cannot just say "I love you." Love must be felt; though not just by feeling love, but also one must also feel the love they give. These words sound so simple, but they are not. There is no way I can say I truly love rapists, child molestors, etc, for I 'feel' no love towards them. Oh I have tried, and the best I have been able to do with a lot of help from God, is honestly say I do not hate them. I could say that I love them, but I would be a liar and God would know in an instant.

God is love; he seeks not prove his love; neither should anyone else.

Just my thoughts, :)

Love in Christ
Darren
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skydreamers

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Re: Proclaimations of Love
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2007, 06:43:28 PM »

Quote
2Cor 7: 8 For even though I did GRIEVE YOU  with my letter, I do not regret it now, though I did regret it; for I see that that letter did pain you, though only for a little while; 9. Yet I am glad now, NOT BECAUSE YOU WERE PAINED, but because you were pained into repentance  and so turned back to God; for you felt a grief such as God meant you to feel, so that in nothing you might suffer loss THROUGH US or harm FOR WHAT WE DID.  10 For Godly grief and the pain God is permitted to direct, produce a repentance that leads and contributes to salvation and deliverance from evil, and it never brings regret; but worldly grief is deadly....

I believe that the worldly who hate and do not believe in the Word of God, are already in pain and when they encounter a child of God, that pain just gets worse.

Hi Arcturus, great verses!  (I seem to be following you around today.... ;))

Quote
I feel true agape love is the removal of all desires to be right, to prove wrong, to hold or gain ground. Rather it is the EXACT opposite.

First it is to gain understanding so as to FIND agreement, even if one has to admit they were mistaken. It's not about holding back anger or frustration; rather, it is about NEVER feeling such thoughts. It's about being thankful, respectful and gracious for every moment spent. Agape love is not blind and neither does it seek to cover. Neither does it have motives or desires, nor is it selfish or selfless (being only capable of giving love but not recieving love).

Darren, that was very well said...very cool! 8)

Thanks everyone for a great thread,

Peace,
Diana
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hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: Proclaimations of Love
« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2007, 10:22:13 AM »

Hello Joe

Hi Arcturus,

You ask : If a person has little problem continuing to publicly castigate other people or holds animosity toward some are they capable of agape love, charity?

Quoting Ray in his latest instalment Gehenna Fire Judgment : Does standing up for the Truths of Jesus Christ bring more persecution, condemnation, and ridicule from your "Christian" brothers and sisters than you are willing to endure?

Is the person you mention who you say "has little problem continuing to publicly castigate other people" fit the description of being willing to endure persecution, condemnation and ridicule from his "Christian" brothers and sisters OR is the brother you mention against the person of his "Christian" brothers and sisters and willing for them to go to pagan Hell and desires to help them along the way?

IF the brother you mention believes in Hell then yes, I would agree that they are incapable of agape or phileo love because the Love of God is not apparently in them.

I personally do not believe that we are supposed to harm each other. Even Paul grieved and repented of hurting his brethren but latter was glad for the Godly outcome.

Thankfully he does not subscribe to the ET doctrine but does not see the need for so many other of the truths of our Lord, believing or at least stating that his unconditional love for all covers everything else. I have seen this philosophy before, but what I have been trying to get him to see is that this love (charity) is not something that just happens suddenly or instantaneously but that this is the culmination of all the other attributes of His Spirit within.

Often in Scripture we see our spiritual growing experience being compared to building a house, we are to build our house on a solid foundation, faith in the Rock that is Christ, not the shifting sand of human feelings and reasoning. The foundation of a house is not the end result though, our Master Builder leads us through the process of building our spiritual house step by step just as a physical building is made. Structural walls must be erected, a roof put in place and then all doors, windows, etc. If we think we can skip steps in this process the structure will not be inhabitable, it will fail. This is I believe what Peter is saying when he says, "add to your faith virtue," etc. (2Peter 1:5-7)   

The worldly winds of feelings, emotion and seeking the praise of men will soon blow our shabby structure off the Rock foundation and back onto the shifting sand of this world.


2Cor 7: 8 For even though I did GRIEVE YOU  with my letter, I do not regret it now, though I did regret it; for I see that that letter did pain you, though only for a little while; 9. Yet I am glad now, NOT BECAUSE YOU WERE PAINED, but because you were pained into repentance and so turned back to God; for you felt a grief such as God meant you to feel, so that in nothing you might suffer loss THROUGH US or harm FOR WHAT WE DID.  10 For Godly grief and the pain God is permitted to direct, produce a repentance that leads and contributes to salvation and deliverance from evil, and it never brings regret; but worldly grief is deadly....

Arcturus, you have no idea how directly you hit the nail on the head, perfectly square! This discussion has him feeling not edified or seeing a need for correction but as a personal assault.

I believe that the worldly who hate and do not believe in the Word of God, are already in pain and when they encounter a child of God, that pain just gets worse.

My friend has complained of feeling tortured and experiencing the wrath of God, when the attempt is made to help him understand that when he is trying to show charity/love to the world by his own efforts he rejects it, always coming back to "I am following the command of Jesus to love my brother." OK fine, what about not holding grudges, being angry with those who do not agree with you, how about being intemperate with your words, how about shouting of your good deeds and "love" on the streetcorners? What about the command to "sin no more?" Is this command fully obtainable in this flesh? We will sin less and less as we grow with Him as we will love more and more through growing in His Spirit. These commands are the goals we have before us, of where we will be when we are literally born again in the Spirit, when the corruptable becomes incorruptable (1Cor 15:42-45).

This spiritual growth to being truly charitable is not an easy or swift process, without recognizing what is wrong how does one ask and pray for the strength to overcome?


Perhaps you may find one maybe two thoughts in the above that might fit this particular episode you are experiencing with your brother. I believe it is also worth considering that the trials of our faith are not easy walks in the garden!

I found plenty!  ;)

If any of this constructively applies to your expereince then I am rewarded. If not then I am rewarded to have been given the occasion to contemplate this difficult situation you have shared, as though it were mine.

Thank you for your thoughtful post.

Peace be to you both

Arcturus :)

His Peace to you Sister,

Joe





 


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hillsbororiver

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Re: Proclaimations of Love
« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2007, 11:37:06 AM »


 It's not about holding back anger or frustration; rather, it is about NEVER feeling such thoughts.


Great point Darren,

That is a tough one to fulfil in this flesh, as we grow in Spirit we get the earnest (down payment) on this attribute but (as Diana also pointed out) we get caught up in our day to day lives and sometimes the smallest irritations can trigger anger, the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.  ;)

As we grow these episodes become less frequent but if we are in this mode of constant self justification, anger, and looking for other's faults (specks in their eyes) we will fail to see our own shortcomings, our real place in this journey.

Peter also warns us of this;


1Pe 4:15  But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.

The portion Kat posted from Ray was really what this is all about and I think many become confused, even deceived by supposing their love for those they agree with or identify with is what the Lord is commanding us to aspire to. It is much, much more.

Luk 6:32  For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
 
Luk 6:33  And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.

His Peace to you,

Joe

P.S. This beast of ours is more insidious, clever and resourceful than we ever could have imagined before;


Rev 13:4  And they worshiped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshiped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?




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javajoe

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Re: Proclaimations of Love
« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2007, 11:59:40 AM »

Good morning everyone,

This was an excellent post, but I feel compelled to repond to the statement below:

IF the brother you mention believes in Hell then yes, I would agree that they are incapable of agape or phileo love because the Love of God is not apparently in them.


I would agree with this statement, but with the following qualification:

I think many people who reluctantly, sadly, it breaks their heart believe in hell can have agape love.  That was what i was taught and believed in for years, and many of my christian friends who still believe in this doctrine obviously love the Lord and have a desire in their hearts "that all man be saved", these people are working out of agape love.  On the other hand, those who revel in the idea of, or wish hell on others "you'll get yours - you just wait", are incapable of agape love.  I am reminded of what I heard about a Benny Hinn "revival", where he was "prophecying" that God is going to "smite down all of the homosexuals with fire and send them to hell",  After he said this, the crowd cheered!  Those people hadn't a clue as to what agape love was all about. 

I do admit that this new way of believing makes it a lot easier for me to have agape love, because now I see everyone I meet as "being reconciled to God".

I'd like to get responses from others.  What do you all think?

Thanks,


ciao,
Joe
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Proclaimations of Love
« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2007, 12:38:20 PM »

Hi Joe,

I see your point as to where the person's heart is as they believe the "hell" indoctrination/doctrine. Do they embrace it or do they have a consternation when contemplating it?

The point I was trying to make here though is even though our empathy for all our brothers and sisters will increase dramatically as we grow in spirit, learning more of His truths, the ability to have a true unconditional love for all, to really love our enemies and not just give lip service to it requires a very mature spiritual person who also consistantly displays the other spiritual attributes that Peter describes.

But can a person who believes that God will eternally torture those He is at enmity with while He commands us to love our enemies be worshipping the real Living God? The Provider of all spiritual gifts?

There is no doubt they can have a deep and profound love for their family, friends and others in the church but are they really capable of loving those on the outside, can the carnal mind comprehend much less manifest true spiritual fruit?

Paul in 1 Corinthians speaks to the church(es) about this carnality;


1 Corinthians 3

 1And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

 2I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

 3For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

 4For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

 5Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?

 6I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.

 7So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

 8Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.

 9For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

 10According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

 11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

 12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

 13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Joe, I do not believe that those who have yet to have their eyes opened (not that they won't) are capable of a knowledge of the deeper things of God, the spiritual truths that only He can reveal. Therefore they are still carnal.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe



 

   
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pylady

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Re: Proclaimations of Love
« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2007, 11:29:17 PM »

Hi Joe,

Thank you for this thread.  Your post and all the responses have really hit home for me . this scripture comes to mind:

1Tim1:5  "Now the end of the commandment is charity (agape) out of a pure
             heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned."

Agape love and a pure heart are linked here.  Do we have pure hearts.? If not can we have pure agape love?   And can we have a good conscience?  I know it seems like every day I say, think or do something that bothers my conscience.  :'(

I said your post hit home but it was really more like a bullseye when you said to quote:

  "This beast of ours is more insidious, clever and resourceful than we ever could have imagined before"    and
   "If we start to believe we already possess what we really ought to be striving
for then how hard will we be looking, or striving?"

Recently God used a small incident to teach me a big lesson, and to show me
that the beast is still on his throne in me, and that His standards are much higher than mine.  I thought my standards WERE His standards but He showed me NOT!

Not to go into detail, but this incident involved a small transaction - returning something to the store.  I thought I was a truthful person - hated a lie as I was required.  But - WHACK - He showed me as only He can that truth is much more than not saying lying words.  His standard of truth is what is in your heart, or in this case what was in my heart from the moment I decided to return this item.  He also showed me what false pride it is to think that I was truthful and living up to His standards, or that I could! 

WOW - I felt this reprimand.  I really wanted to hide in a cave or have a mountain fall on me to hide me from His presence.  It really made me understand  Rev6: 15,16!

Anyway when I read your words it brought this back to me. How timely your words are!

It is wonderful to see His hand in our lives teaching and correcting us, and using our brothers and sisters to teach us, even it may sting at times.

I'm sorry if I've strayed off the topic some and made this personal.  I'm really just trying to say I don't think we can do anything perfectly while in the flesh, including showing agape love to others.  But it is a journey in this life in which He is teaching and cleansing us to bring us to perfection.  If we are to be in His image we must not only understand, show and feel agape love.  We must become love.  God IS love.

Your sister in Christ,

           Cindy   :)
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javajoe

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Re: Proclaimations of Love
« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2007, 12:47:37 AM »

Joe,

I do see your point.  We can only hope that more people will come to truth.
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Craig

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Re: Proclaimations of Love
« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2007, 11:27:45 AM »

Love like anything else in our measly existence can become an idol of our hearts.

And too much love mingled with our fleshy desires can be as dangerous as anything.   Let's say you love your children so much that you don't want to see them burn in hell for eternity so you kill them to save them.  That is an example of love gone awry.   Or I love my wife so much that I don't want her to get in a car accident or possibly find another person to compete for my time so I lock her at home.  People love in this way too.  Or you can love someone so much that you can not exist without them, when they leave you, you shut yourself off from the world and dwell on your love for them, this can become a bad thing also. 

In the end the love we give others is really the love we desire others to give us, and when they don't return it to us as we feel they should, the blanket gets pulled back and the carnal beast who really can't understand love is revealed.

Some people want to make a whole doctrine out of love.  No doubt love is an important element in the message of scripture, but it is one of many, and when we try to hang our hat only on this hook it will eventually give way.  We can piously state we love everyone, and quote scripture to justify our thoughts but in our human existence I don't believe it is entirely possible (in our flesh), some will fair better than others, but only our Father and Christ can give us the total love for each other, and one day They will.

Joe, I don't know whether the person you talk about feigns love or uses it as an idol of the heart but proper temperament and discernment is as important here as with anything, and without those things, their house will eventually fall like a house of cards.  And when that happens they will be left with the choice of looking inward to their own failings or outward to the failings of those around them.  Unfortunately, the beast within always looks out.  My prayer for us all is to look within.

Blessings!
Craig

 
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skydreamers

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Re: Proclaimations of Love
« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2007, 02:59:54 PM »

Really good points Craig!

Peace,
Diana
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YellowStone

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Re: Proclaimations of Love
« Reply #18 on: September 07, 2007, 04:16:56 PM »

I share this thinking that some will slam me, but I feel many will see the wisdom of truth behind these words, irrespective of who penned them.

LOVE from The Prophet by Kahlil Gibran

Then said Almitra, "Speak to us of Love."

And he raised his head and looked upon the people, and there fell a stillness upon them.

And with a great voice he said:

When love beckons to you follow him,

Though his ways are hard and steep.

And when his wings enfold you yield to him,

Though the sword hidden among his pinions may wound you.

And when he speaks to you believe in him,

Though his voice may shatter your dreams as the north wind lays waste the garden.

For even as love crowns you so shall he crucify you. Even as he is for your growth so is he for your pruning.

Even as he ascends to your height and caresses your tenderest branches that quiver in the sun,

So shall he descend to your roots and shake them in their clinging to the earth.

Like sheaves of corn he gathers you unto himself.

He threshes you to make you naked.

He sifts you to free you from your husks.

He grinds you to whiteness.

He kneads you until you are pliant;

And then he assigns you to his sacred fire, that you may become sacred bread for God's sacred feast.

All these things shall love do unto you that you may know the secrets of your heart, and in that knowledge become a fragment of Life's heart.

But if in your fear you would seek only love's peace and love's pleasure,

Then it is better for you that you cover your nakedness and pass out of love's threshing-floor,

Into the seasonless world where you shall laugh, but not all of your laughter, and weep, but not all of your tears.

Love gives naught but itself and takes naught but from itself.

Love possesses not nor would it be possessed;

For love is sufficient unto love.

When you love you should not say, "God is in my heart," but rather, I am in the heart of God."

And think not you can direct the course of love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.

Love has no other desire but to fulfil itself.

But if you love and must needs have desires, let these be your desires:

To melt and be like a running brook that sings its melody to the night.

To know the pain of too much tenderness.

To be wounded by your own understanding of love;

And to bleed willingly and joyfully.

To wake at dawn with a winged heart and give thanks for another day of loving;

To rest at the noon hour and meditate love's ecstasy;

To return home at eventide with gratitude;

And then to sleep with a prayer for the beloved in your heart and a song of praise upon your lips.


I hope I am not the only one who is able to feel the Love of Our God in these words, and what it means to love and be loved.

Love in Christ,
Darren
« Last Edit: September 07, 2007, 04:30:38 PM by YellowStone »
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Proclaimations of Love
« Reply #19 on: September 08, 2007, 11:42:30 AM »

Hi Joe,

Thank you for this thread.  Your post and all the responses have really hit home for me . this scripture comes to mind:

1Tim1:5  "Now the end of the commandment is charity (agape) out of a pure
             heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned."


Hi Cindy,

You are very welcome, the verse you quote fits here perfectly, it really underlines what this journey is all about and where it ends and true life (spiritual life) begins. Our failures are a constant reminder of how dependent on Him we really are. I know the minute I start to feel comfortable maybe even satisfied that a stumble or fall is right around the corner.

Thank you for the thoughtful response!

His Peace to you,

Joe 
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