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Author Topic: FOR WHAT DID PAUL VOLUNTEER?  (Read 12377 times)

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hillsbororiver

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FOR WHAT DID PAUL VOLUNTEER?
« on: September 13, 2007, 05:05:02 PM »

FOR WHAT DID PAUL VOLUNTEER?

All who will have a part with Christ when He comes to rule this earth in His kingdom must volunteer for judgment now! Remember how Paul volunteered: "What will You have me to do?" But just what was Paul volunteering to do?

Was he volunteering to be praised and adored by the public?

Was he volunteering to wear thousand-dollar suits, $500 shoes, $20,000 Rolex watches, drive $80,000 automobiles, live in multimillion dollar multiple homes, fly in private executive jets, and collect millions and millions and millions of dollars of poor people’s money to promote the gospel of prosperity and worldliness?

Did our Lord tell Paul that his ministry and calling would be a "walk in the park" with never-ending comforts and pleasures, having medals and honors bestowed upon him by the leaders and dignitaries of pagan nations, living in a five and a half-million dollar mansion large enough to be a luxury hotel, while feasting like a fat king in the opulence of Babylonian extravagance?

Is this the description of a successful minister of the Gospel?

Was Paul’s message to all the Gentile nations that they had to give to him (or they would be ROBBING GOD) ten percent of all their gold, silver, salaries, or money, so he could flaunt his worldly and lavish lifestyle in the faces of these poor Christian converts.

Let’s "get real" as they say.

"For I will shew him [Paul] how GREAT things he must SUFFER for my name’s sake" (Acts 9:18).

In II Cor. 11:22-28 we learn that Paul suffered the following:

weariness
jails
blows
deaths (of loved ones, eventually himself)
thirty-nine lashes
flogged with rods
stoned
shipwrecked
day & night in swamp
journeys dangers of rivers dangers of robbers
dangers of his race
dangers of the nations
dangers in the city
dangers in wilderness
dangers in the sea
dangers from false brethren
toil and labor
vigils
famine and thirst
fasts
cold and nakedness 

Besides those things that are without, that which cometh upon me DAILY, the care of ALL THE CHURCHES’!

Add a little "fire" to the above scenario and we might conclude that Paul was being tortured and punished in a Christian hell.

But Paul was not being "punished," he was being "JUDGED," and there is a world of difference. Paul was being made STRONG. Paul was being molded into a SPIRITUAL GIANT! And being trained, educated, purged, perfected into a spiritual giant is NOT a walk in the park!

Was it just Paul that God singled out to endure such hardships and trials? No, we too must partake of the same:

"Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that WE [Christians, followers of Christ] MUST through MUCH TRIBULATION [Greek: thlipsis--affliction, troubles, burdens, persecution, anguish] enter into the kingdom of God" (Acts 14:22).

Does your pastor teach that you must go through such things if you are to be a follower of Jesus Christ and rule with Him in the Kingdom of God? Or does he teach that if you are going through just such things that you probably need to get your life in order and repent because you obviously have many, many sins in your life that are bringing on all these troubles and therefore, you are not being blessed of the Lord? Their prosperity gospel of worldliness and gross materialism is a travesty of the gospel of Jesus Christ! I hear this prosperity gospel of worldliness and materialism every time I turn the TV on. But what do the Scriptures say:

Before I continue this train of thought, let me interject that although we are to go through extreme hardship, persecution, and tribulations, God nonetheless, strengthens us so that we can endure these things. It is not God’s purpose to discourage us. We have this promise from God:

"There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, Who will not suffer you to be tempted above that you are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape [Gk: ‘sequel’] that you may be able to bear it" (I Cor. 10:13).

I'll let you check all the many Scriptures of comfort that God gives us even while we are undergoing all our trials and sufferings. Here’s one more good one, however:

"Blessed [Gk: HAPPY] is the man that endures temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the CROWN OF LIFE, which the Lord has promised to them that love Him" (James 1:12).

It is most important that we consider, however, some of the many Scriptures that relate to our suffering, afflictions, and persecutions. This is necessary if we are to ever acquire a deep spiritual understanding of God’s judgment on the world in the lake of fire and second death. As we go through these many Scriptures, be aware of the fact that we are not going through all these things as punishment. God is not punishing us, He is chastening us, and there is a BIG difference.

"And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we SUFFER with Him, that we may be also glorified together" (Rom. 8:17).

"That no man should be moved by these AFFLICTIONS: for yourselves know that we are APPOINTED thereunto" (I Thes. 3:3).

Paul suffered much to get the gospel to the Thessalonians, "... Suffering ... being outraged ... a vast struggle ... [why?] ... We have been TESTED by God to be entrusted with the gospel ... God, Who is TESTING our hearts" (I Thes. 2:1-4, Concordant Literal New Testament).

Then he tells them that they too are "appointed" to such like sufferings and afflictions. Paul praises the faith and endurance of the Thessalonians because of: "... all your PERSECUTIONS and the AFFLICTIONS with which you are bearing ... which you are SUFFERING ... you who are being AFFLICTED ..." (I Thes. 1:5-7).

Now then, was this because the Thessalonians lived in a bad part of town, or bad part of the world, or that they lived at a bad time in history? Or does God bring these things upon all who would follow Christ in all ages?

"Yea, and ALL [in every era] that will live godly in Christ Jesus SHALL SUFFER PERSECUTION" (II Tim. 3:12).

But aren’t all these persecutions and afflictions at the hands of evil men rather than God? For sure wicked men commit many wicked deeds against the true followers of Jesus Christ, but Who is ultimately responsible for ALL things, including the tribulations and persecutions on believers? It is, of course, GOD

"Who works ALL things after the counsel of His Own WILL" (Eph. 1:11).

"So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in ALL YOUR PERSECUTIONS AND TRIBULATIONS that ye endure; Which is a manifest token [display] of [of WHAT?] ... OF the RIGHTEOUS JUDGMENT [Gk: ‘just judging’] OF GOD!"

And for what grand purpose?

"... that ye may be counted WORTHY OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD, for which ye also SUFFER" (2 Thes. 1:4-5).

Just how much are we expected to give up and suffer for Christ in order to be worthy?

"And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than Me is NOT WORTHY of Me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than Me is NOT WORTHY of Me. And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after Me, IS NOT WORTHY OF ME" (Matt. 10:26-28).

What does God consider a "reasonable" sacrifice to become members of the Family and Kingdom of God?

"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your BODIES A LIVING SACRIFICE, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service" (Rom. 12:1).

Make no mistake about it; if you will follow Jesus Christ, you will experience many of the hardships spoken of in these Scriptures. I am not saying that it is necessary to teach youngsters in Sunday School these deeper truths of God, but if we adults are to ever go on to maturity in Christ, it’s time to get our heads out of the sand!

The good news is that if we have a volunteering heart and accept the judgments of God on our lives now, we will be sure to avoid the harsher judgment on the whole world reserved for "that day."

"For if we would JUDGE [Gk: diakrino=THROUGH JUDGE, separate thoroughly, to withdraw, discern, judge] OURSELVES [members of the called-out House of God], we should not be judged [Gk: krino=judge, set right, decide, to try, condemn, punish]. But when we are judged [the same Greek word krino as used above with reference to judging the wicked world] we are CHASTENED of the Lord, that we should not be condemned [Gk: katakrino, an adverse sentence] with the world" (I Cor. 11:32).

Pay close attention to the three Greek words, diakrino, krino, and katakrino, used in this verse.

There is so much contained in this verse. There is a judgment now on God’s saints. We are judged by being "chastened of the Lord." What does that mean? "Chastened" is from the Greek word paideuo and here is what it means: "to train up a child, i.e. educate, or (by impl.) discipline (by punishment): -- chasten (-ise), instruct, learn, teach" (Strong’s Greek Dictionary p. 54).

Are you following this amazing use of words? You will now learn a marvelous truth of Scripture that is not being taught in any theological seminary that I am aware of anywhere in the whole world.

We are "judged" by God, and the vehicle that God uses to do this judging is "chastening." In other words, we are "judged" by God by being "trained up" like a child, by being "educated," by "discipline" involving "punishment," "instructed," by which we "learn," and all these "teach" us WHAT WE SHOULD BE.

There is no doubt that some of this chastening can be harsh, sorrowful, and painful. Much of it is not very pleasant and God admits as much to us. And it is not possible for one single son of God to avoid this chastisement! Let’s read it:

Read the rest here;

(From the Lake of Fire Part III)
http://bible-truths.com/lake3.html

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe
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ciy

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Re: FOR WHAT DID PAUL VOLUNTEER?
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2007, 06:01:21 PM »

Joe

I was going to post this on the Jesus' Church thread, but I see this post as good info and encouragement along the same lines as that thread.

This is from Ray's new post on Judgement in Gehenna Fire.

Here is a marvelous truth regarding Christ's judgment of His Elect: We accept judgment voluntarily. Jesus never forced or coerced anyone to follow Him. Jesus asked some disciples to follow Him, and they did:

"And He [Jesus] said unto them [Peter and Andrew], Follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men. And they straightway left their nets, and follow Him" (Matt. 4:18-20).

One disciple Jesus called excused himself on the grounds that he had more important things to do:

"And another of His disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father. But Jesus said unto him, Follow me, and let the dead bury their dead" (Matt. 8:21-22).

Another disciple starts to follow Jesus, but then decides he has some personal things to attend to first. Jesus will reject such a person:

"And another also said, Lord I will follow you, but let me first go bid them farewell, which at home at my house. And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back is fit for the kingdom of God" (Luke 9:61-62).

Jesus invites one young ruler to be a very Apostle, and he turns it down because the price is too high:

Jesus said unto him, If you will be perfect, go and sell that you have, and give to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven,: and come and follow Me. But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions" (Mat. 19:21-22).

Others volunteer to be followers of Jesus, but Jesus rejects them without any apparent explanation:

"And a certain scribe came and said unto Him, Master, I will follow you whithersoever You go. And Jesus said unto him. The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man has no where to lay His head" (Matt. 8:19-20).

Jesus knew this upper class scribe would not be inclined to endure for very long.

By and by, most of Christ's disciples fell by the wayside. When Jesus told His disciples that they would have to "eat My flesh and drink My blood" (John 6:54) in order to have eonian life, they began to murmur:

"Many there of His disciples when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples murmured at it, He said unto them, Does this offend you? What and if you shall see the Son of man ascend up where He was before?

So today theologians and Christians would say that they are not offended that Jesus said we are to "eat His flesh and drink His blood," oh no, but they are terribly offended if one applies Jesus' very same spiritual words to such things as Gehenna fire showing that it too is nor literal fire.

"It is the SPIRIT that quickens [gives life]; the flesh profits nothings: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit and they are life... but there are some of you that believe not... Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto Me except it were given unto him of My Father. From that time many of His disciples went back, and walked no more with Him" (John 6: 60-66).

Will any of you also "go back and walk no more with Him" after reading this Lake of Fire series? Does standing up for the Truths of Jesus Christ bring more persecution, condemnation, and ridicule from your "Christian" brothers and sisters than you are willing to endure?

"If any man come to Me, and hate [love less] not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple"

"And whosoever does not bear his cross, and come after Me, cannot be My disciple"

"So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsake not all that he has, he cannot be My disciple" (Luke 14:26, 27, 33).


The truth is a hard saying and like Ray's great talk on "Being Saved is the hardest thing you will ever do" it is not a comfortable pat on the back journey. 
CIY
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sonofone

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Re: FOR WHAT DID PAUL VOLUNTEER?
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2007, 07:09:30 PM »

Joe I wonder what the average church member would think if they read this post? It was so simple, so clearly stated, yet so powerful, that I paused to take it all in before posting. Unfortunately I think we all know the answer to that question. He that will have ears let him hear. Great post Joe.
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: FOR WHAT DID PAUL VOLUNTEER?
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2007, 07:11:22 PM »

Hello Joe

 I will respond rather to the TITLE of your post.

 For me, Paul did not Volunteer. I think he was so INTENSLY AFRAID when he was blinded and fell off his horse that he said the first thing that came to mind which is what we have now on record in the Scriptures.

I do not believe Paul volunteered and I prefer to believe Christ called, chose and assigned and renamed to Paul the man HE was going to make out of deluded, deceived and sincere Saul. Christ said to Saul Acts 9 : 6 ARISE and GO into the city, and YOU WILL BE TOLD WHAT YOU MUST DO.  I think CHRIST Volunteered Saul. Saul had no free will choice and what finally PAUL volunteered for was his death in Rome. Jesus equipped him and enabled him to achieve this final victory.

As ciy says so beautifully about being saved being :  not a comfortable pat on the back journey.  Good one ciy!

Peace be to you

Arcturus :)


« Last Edit: September 13, 2007, 07:13:02 PM by Arcturus »
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hillsbororiver

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Re: FOR WHAT DID PAUL VOLUNTEER?
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2007, 07:34:55 PM »


 I will respond rather to the TITLE of your post.

 For me, Paul did not Volunteer. I think he was so INTENSLY AFRAID when he was blinded and fell off his horse that he said the first thing that came to mind which is what we have now on record in the Scriptures.


Hi Arcturus,

I think when Ray subtitled this portion of his paper LOF Part III he was not using the classic first definition that comes to mind but rather was using this (#9 definition Random House Unabridged Dictionary) instead.

9. to offer oneself for some service or undertaking.

There is no argument that Saul/Paul was greatly influenced (caused) to utter these words you cannot say this response (What will you have me do?) does not fit this definition.

If you can't see this perhaps you should write Ray for a better explaination.

His Peace to you,

Joe

« Last Edit: September 13, 2007, 07:47:08 PM by hillsbororiver »
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hillsbororiver

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Re: FOR WHAT DID PAUL VOLUNTEER?
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2007, 07:41:47 PM »

Joe I wonder what the average church member would think if they read this post? It was so simple, so clearly stated, yet so powerful, that I paused to take it all in before posting. Unfortunately I think we all know the answer to that question. He that will have ears let him hear. Great post Joe.

Thank you sonophone,

Actually I had nothing to do with the composition other than copying and pasting it from Ray's article (LOF Part III) I thought it may be especially relevant considering what many have shared here recently.

The additional message from CIY taken from Ray's Gehenna paper fit here seamlessly, great response!

His Peace to you,

Joe
« Last Edit: September 13, 2007, 07:44:24 PM by hillsbororiver »
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hillsbororiver

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Re: FOR WHAT DID PAUL VOLUNTEER?
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2007, 09:52:18 PM »

It is human nature to want to take the path of the least resistance, but the Lord does not leave any wiggle room in regard to what He requires of His own. Many in the church system want smooth things preached to them, they want prosperity in this world, they want to be well thought of, respected and maybe even to be popular, it isn't much different than what any unbeliever or worldly person desires. It is seen and believed that a prosperous life in this world makes one a man of distinction, either favored by God or because he himself is a superior person, worthy of respect and admiration.

Luk 6:24  But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation.
Luk 6:25  Woe unto you that are full for ye shall hunger. Woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep.
Luk 6:26  Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.

By "rich" I am quite sure that monetary wealth is not the end all be all or even the most relevant point, this pertains more to those who consider themselves "in need of nothing" they know all they need to know in regard to Christ and the plan of salvation.

Same here in the next verse, of course gluttony is not to be desired but Jesus is not speaking of someone who gorges on ice cream, cake or any foodstuff but those who know what they know and are not to be swayed by any Scriptures, they have no real hunger for His Word, they have their preacher to feed them smooth things every week.

To be fearful of what others think and say about you, wanting a good solid reputation in the here and now, at what price? Look at the joy of the apostles when the religious leaders gave them the boot!


Act 5:41  And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name.

We know that the Lord really had some incredible things set aside for Saul/Paul, it was a glorious mission but his way would not be easy, smooth and the establishment would not be exalting him or bestowing any honors upon him.

Act 9:15  But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
Act 9:16  For I will show him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

Paul understood this perfectly, he believed Christ when He said "let him take up his cross and follow me" (Mat 16:24, Mar 8:34, Mar 10:21, Luk 9:23). He knew very well that he and all who are of God would have to suffer tribulation, would have to pick up their cross which is denying and despising the very things that we desire and that come so natural to us.

Rom 8:17  And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

1Co 4:12  And labor, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:
1Co 4:13  Being defamed, we entreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.
1Co 4:14  I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.

1Th 3:4  For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.

1Ti 4:10  For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those that believe.

2Ti 2:12  If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

2Ti 3:12  Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

What did Peter write in regard to this experience of being ostracized and having evil things spoken of you (or worse)?
 
1Pe 3:14  But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe



 
« Last Edit: September 13, 2007, 09:54:07 PM by hillsbororiver »
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Brett

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Re: FOR WHAT DID PAUL VOLUNTEER?
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2007, 03:08:23 AM »

I'm concerning....

Did Paul (or anyone) have VOLUNTEER? If you say yes, what scripture?

Brett
« Last Edit: September 14, 2007, 03:14:16 AM by Brett »
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hillsbororiver

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Re: FOR WHAT DID PAUL VOLUNTEER?
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2007, 08:43:43 AM »

Hi Brett,

The word "volunteer" does not appear anywhere in the KJV, but the verbal response Paul uttered was a question "What will you have me do?" As I explained earlier this definition is not what we normally have come to mind when hearing the word "volunteer." We will think of a volunteer fireman, or any person who offers to do a task for no monetary compensation.

The definition I provided earlier (#9 definition Random House Unabridged Dictionary, 9. to offer oneself for some service or undertaking.) does not take into account any coercion, strong persuasion, any causation of any degree whatsoever, just the fact that they gave information or a service) look at this example;

Mr. Jones was adament in his innocence until he was presented with the evidence of his guilt, he then volunteered to give the police the names of his accomplices and the method they gained entry into the bank.

You see Mr. Jones did not march into the police station to volunteer the information out of guilt or a motivation to do the right thing but was caused or coerced once he was convinced or convicted in his mind it was the thing he should do, for his own good.

I hope this helps,

Joe
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Sue Creamer

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Re: FOR WHAT DID PAUL VOLUNTEER?
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2007, 09:23:31 AM »

Joe,

"God, Who is TESTING our hearts"

Doesn't God already know our hearts???  He made us, he gave us our particular personalities, weaknesses,
strengths..!  I know he knows exactly how we will react in any given circumstance so why does he have
to test our heart???  When Abraham was to sacrifice Issac, and he would have done so had God not stopped him...then God said to Abraham "now I know.."  (not quoted) as if he didn't know what Abraham would do.  Is it possible God test us so WE see what is in our own hearts??? 

One more thing...!!  You posted Scriptures from Luke 6:24, 25 & 26.  I must admit being new to the truth I did not understand just what this was saying...I have always beat myself up because I thought
it was talking about my "extra poundage" "comfortable lifestyle" "being liked by my family/friends".... :)  not that I am excusing my "flaws"  :(  I am truly loving seeing the real truth of God and the blinders are coming off....!!

Thank you so much for such a wonderful post and for starting my day with some new truths.
peace,
Sue Ann

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Craig

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Re: FOR WHAT DID PAUL VOLUNTEER?
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2007, 09:36:50 AM »

Quote
Doesn't God already know our hearts???

Sure God knows our hearts, but do we really know our hearts?

This is all part of judgement, I believe God tests our hearts for our benefit to show us our true selves so we will be without excuse.

Craig
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SixFour

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Re: FOR WHAT DID PAUL VOLUNTEER?
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2007, 09:52:48 AM »

Quote
Doesn't God already know our hearts???

Sure God knows our hearts, but do we really know our hearts?

This is all part of judgement, I believe God tests our hearts for our benefit to show us our true selves so we will be without excuse.

Craig

Shucks, from my life experiences this week, I know this to be true. He again has basically dissected my heart on a table and shown me what was in it. Not a pretty sight at all....

Thanks for the posts everyone!  :D

James
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hillsbororiver

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Re: FOR WHAT DID PAUL VOLUNTEER?
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2007, 09:56:10 AM »

Hi Sue Ann,

You are very welcome Sister!

Craig gave a very good answer, God does not need to learn about our nature, we need to be convicted of our shortcomings and our need of him in all things. This is the reason for trials and tribulations in this world so we can see the fallacy of believing we of ourselves can do anything good or truly unselfish, these trials, this testing brings a repentant heart to Him.

Here is the verse (KJV) you had a question about, Ray used the Concordant in his article;


1Th 2:4  But as we were allowed of God to be put in trust with the gospel, even so we speak; not as pleasing men, but God, which trieth1381[/b] our hearts.


G1381
δοκιμάζω
dokimazō
dok-im-ad'-zo
From G1384; to test (literally or figuratively); by implication to approve: - allow, discern, examineX like, (ap-) prove, try.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

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hillsbororiver

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Re: FOR WHAT DID PAUL VOLUNTEER?
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2007, 09:58:54 AM »


Shucks, from my life experiences this week, I know this to be true. He again has basically dissected my heart on a table and shown me what was in it. Not a pretty sight at all....


 :D

I know the feeling Brother!

Joe
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Sue Creamer

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Re: FOR WHAT DID PAUL VOLUNTEER?
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2007, 10:19:12 AM »

Joe/Craig,

This is probably a question that a child would ask...but then I am as a child right now in this time of learning...!!  Why does God come across in many instances in the bible as NOT knowing .....even though he obviously did know what would happen.   Seems that in the case of Abraham, if God had said "NOW YOU know" instead of NOW I know (which implies GOD didn't know) it would have made it clearer????  Please forgive me if I am not wording this right..!!!  Is this one of those instances that the translation is wrong, or is it recorded this way for another reason?? 

Thanks...
Sue Ann
 
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hillsbororiver

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Re: FOR WHAT DID PAUL VOLUNTEER?
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2007, 10:47:19 AM »

Hi Sue Ann,

I believe there is so much to be learned from Genesis alone, a lifetime of study just might scratch the surface, when we read the preceding verse we see that Abraham has been communicating with an angel of the Lord.


Gen 22:11  And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.

Gen 22:12  And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

You can see from the following verse the events here on earth are being observed, scrutinized and are of keen interest to the angels, the events here are also revealing to them the plan, purpose and unfailing love of their and our Creator. 
 
1Pe 1:12  Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

As a sidenote this word "know" in Hebrew (Yada) has many variations and subtle differences than what immediately comes to mind when reading the English translation of it.

H3045
ידע
yâda‛
yaw-dah'
A primitive root; to know (properly to ascertain by seeing); used in a great variety of senses, figuratively, literally, euphemistically and inferentially (including observation, care, recognition; and causatively instruction, designation, punishment, etc.): - acknowledge, acquaintance (-ted with), advise, answer, appoint, assuredly, be aware, [un-] awares, can [-not], certainly, for a certainty, comprehend, consider, X could they, cunning, declare, be diligent, (can, cause to) discern, discover, endued with, familiar friend, famous, feel, can have, be [ig-] norant, instruct, kinsfolk, kinsman, (cause to, let, make) know, (come to give, have, take) knowledge, have [knowledge], (be, make, make to be, make self) known, + be learned, + lie by man, mark, perceive, privy to, X prognosticator, regard, have respect, skilful, shew, can (man of) skill, be sure, of a surety, teach, (can) tell, understand, have [understanding], X will be, wist, wit, wot.

Abraham's faith became readily apparent not only to the angel but was tried in the fire of Abraham himself contemplating the death of the son he had waited so long for and loved dearly, once he saw he himself ready, willing and able to carry this through do you believe he felt there was anything his faith in God could not overcome, especially seeing the ultimate mercy of the Lord?

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe


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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: FOR WHAT DID PAUL VOLUNTEER?
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2007, 05:09:29 PM »

God has ways to MAKE carnal-minded, God-defying men and women VOLUNTEER real fast!

FOR WHAT DID PAUL VOLUNTEER?

Only a relative few are participating in this judgment by fire, and they are all volunteers!


I believe that Ray expounds and clarifies his teaching on this statement with the following: Quotes in blue Ray Smith all copied from http://bible-truths.com/lake3.html

Gracing us by means of chastening, TEACHES US TO LIVE GODLY and brings salvation. Judging us by means of chastening, also TEACHES US TO LIVE GODLY and brings salvation!
It is high time we dispense with the hypocrisy.
When God JUDGES US THROUGH CHASTENING (I Cor. 11:32) it is for our good and for our benefit and for our salvation. Why then do we think that God changes character when He likewise judges the wicked, unjust, and non-believers at the great white throne? Why? God changes NOT! God is NOT a respecter of persons. You read all of these Scriptures. Do we think the Scriptures LIE?
If you are not rejoicing over these profound and marvellous revelations, then you must be spiritually asleep. I have just shown you one of the most remarkable truths in the entirety of the Bible! You would do well to not read any further until you thoroughly grasp what has been presented here.
When Jesus desired to ask the worst sinner who had ever lived (that would be Paul):
"This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to SAVE SINNERS; OF WHOM I AM CHIEF," I Tim. 1:15)
To volunteer to teach the gospel to the Gentiles, He merely shined a bright light in Paul’s face to get his attention.


Paul announced much to the grief of those who loved him, who tearfully bid him farewell, that they would no longer see Paul again as he had decided to go to Rome where the Spirit of Christ had warned him of his peril if he did go.  By that time of his life Paul was equipped to have seen and taught and believed that , as Ray also is euipped has seen and teaches…quote:

"Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that WE [Christians, followers of Christ] MUST through MUCH TRIBULATION [Greek: thlipsis--affliction, troubles, burdens, persecution, anguish] enter into the kingdom of God" (Acts 14:22).

Paul knew how to enter the kingdom of God.  As Ray teaches : Quote :

"And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we SUFFER with Him, that we may be also glorified together" (Rom. 8:17).
"That no man should be moved by these AFFLICTIONS: for yourselves know that we are APPOINTED thereunto" (I Thes. 3:3).


Joe you wrote to me saying : There is no argument that Saul/Paul was greatly influenced (caused) to utter these words
I was NOT arguing. I was stating a fact which is what the teachings via Ray have come to mean for me.  :) and then you sayto me Joe :

you cannot say this response (What will you have me do?) does not fit this definition.

If that is what you understood Joe, then you Joe did not see that my response was being made on the awareness that no one has free will and this is NOT in contention with what Ray elaborates, sees and teaches.

You Joe take this futher and contend against me not imodestly either by saying that :
If you can't see this

If I CAN NOT see this!......

And then to conclude you offer me the advise that :

perhaps you should write Ray for a better explaination.

I do not SEE that your recommendation is either appropriate or constructive. It certainly was not recieved as being well intentioned either!

I know that I see things very differently and rest assured that I am very comfortable with what Ray is teaching thank you very much.

Peace to you

Arcturus :)






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hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: FOR WHAT DID PAUL VOLUNTEER?
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2007, 05:24:32 PM »

Hello Joe

 I will respond rather to the TITLE of your post.

 For me, Paul did not Volunteer. I think he was so INTENSLY AFRAID when he was blinded and fell off his horse that he said the first thing that came to mind which is what we have now on record in the Scriptures.

I do not believe Paul volunteered and I prefer to believe Christ called, chose and assigned and renamed to Paul the man HE was going to make out of deluded, deceived and sincere Saul. Christ said to Saul Acts 9 : 6 ARISE and GO into the city, and YOU WILL BE TOLD WHAT YOU MUST DO.  I think CHRIST Volunteered Saul. Saul had no free will choice and what finally PAUL volunteered for was his death in Rome. Jesus equipped him and enabled him to achieve this final victory.

As ciy says so beautifully about being saved being :  not a comfortable pat on the back journey.  Good one ciy!

Peace be to you

Arcturus :)


Point taken and addressed.......



Joe you wrote to me saying : There is no argument that Saul/Paul was greatly influenced (caused) to utter these words
I was NOT arguing. I was stating a fact which is what the teachings via Ray have come to mean for me.  :) and then you sayto me Joe :

you cannot say this response (What will you have me do?) does not fit this definition.

If that is what you understood Joe, then you Joe did not see that my response was being made on the awareness that no one has free will and this is NOT in contention with what Ray elaborates, sees and teaches.

You Joe take this futher and contend against me not imodestly either by saying that :
If you can't see this

If I CAN NOT see this!......

And then to conclude you offer me the advise that :

perhaps you should write Ray for a better explaination.

I do not SEE that your recommendation is either appropriate or constructive. It certainly was not recieved as being well intentioned either!

I know that I see things very differently and rest assured that I am very comfortable with what Ray is teaching thank you very much.

Peace to you

Arcturus :)


Hi Arcturus,

Do you mind if I am direct in my response and how this appears, especially in light of your communication or lack thereof with me the past couple months?

When you first read my post you did not realize it was actually Ray you were challenging and not me, once you realized your error instead of a PM seeking agreement you once again attack and dispute, I am only responding publicly to your charge as this is apparantley how you prefer it.

I have no idea why you must be so confrontational, it is not necessary.

His Peace to you,

Joe

P.S. If you want to continue privately to try and resolve this I am open to it.
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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: FOR WHAT DID PAUL VOLUNTEER?
« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2007, 05:46:45 PM »

Thank you but no thank you Joe.

I shall keep a very long non-confrontational distance from you Joe for as long as string is long!

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
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hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: FOR WHAT DID PAUL VOLUNTEER?
« Reply #19 on: September 14, 2007, 05:51:20 PM »


Eph 4:31  Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:

Eph 4:32  And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Peace,

Joe
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