A Suicide

[jacieleigh]

My best friend called me last evening at 6:10. She had just come into her house from work and found her husband hanging in their basement. She tried to lift him to get him down but he was too heavy. She screamed for help and an elderly neighbor whose joints are deformed with rheumatoid arthritis came and they lifted him and tried to loosen the steel cable he had used but they couldn't. They had to get wire cutters to get him down . When she found him his face was already black, his eyes were popped out of his face and his tongue was hanging out. I think it was already too late. She is broken. She is blaming herself. Why did he do it? He had people who loved him. His wife, their little girl, his parents, friends, aunts and his Grandmother. Now we all are asking what could we have done to save him? I don't understand.
JacieLeigh

[skydreamers]

Hi JacieLeigh,  that is devastating news.  I haven't a clue what to say to you about it, or what comfort there is to offer.  This will be a painful time for you and your friend and the family.  You will all be in my prayers that our Father give you strength to endure and that he will grant you one day an understanding of what happened.  Much love and peace to you, Diana 

[hillsbororiver]

The Bleakness of Depression

"The bleakness of the landscape is unimaginable. It is as friendless and alien as a Dali painting. Ordinary concerns, such as work or friends, have no place here. Futility muffles thought; time elongates cruelly. Who is to blame for this situation? Those with depression think it must be them. Pointlessness and self-loathing govern them. So the natural final step is suicide. People with depression don't kill themselves to frighten an errant boyfriend. They kill themselves because it is the obvious and right thing to do at that point. It is the only positive step they can think of."

Kay McKall

an Ipswich (UK) general practitioner
and consumer with depression,
writing in the British Medical Journal
(NAMI Advocate, winter 2002)


Hello JacieLeigh,

Through the years I have seen this horrible nightmare appear in it's vicious reality with friends and acquaintances whose first reaction after the initial shock and grief is to wonder; "What could I have done to prevent this?" The truth of the matter is most often, nothing. Often times we can recognize when someone close to us is hurting or depressed but when a person decides to take this drastic step the obvious signs of depression have been replaced by a more upbeat attitude, they have found their solution and are determined to see it through, the pain and anguish soon to be settled.

It is usually a very difficult thing to believe that a loved one is capable of such a thing and usually treatment for this degree of depression is not begun until a failed attempt at suicide.

A few months back one of our "celebrity" customers shot himself in the head in his garage, John Winter (I use his name as he was a TV/Radio personality who demise was well documented here) was a successful, witty, good looking TV and radio Meteorologist with a quick wit and always available for charity events or community projects, he freely gave of his time to many good causes.

John had a lovely wife, a beautiful house (which he himself did all the lawn and landscaping maintenance) and was well liked and respected in the Tampa Bay area. His sense of humor and quick wit made him a staple of the most popular News/Radio station in our area, he was in his early 30's and from all appearances the world was his oyster, his future so bright he needed shades to look ahead. Or so it would seem.

John was also a total perfectionist, I got a hint of this when I once asked him why did he do all his own gardening and mowing etc. in the oppressive heat of a Florida summer? He told me because no one else could do it to his satisfaction, it never looked right unless he did it himself. I later found out he was like this in most aspects of his life and even when he did it all himself he was never quite satisfied with the result, it could be better, he sought perfection in an imperfect world.

What a horrible thing for those left in the wake of this "final solution" to be sure the pain and suffering of your friend is going to be intense, we can only pray for His Peace to envelope the family through a knowledge that all will eventually be reconciled.

One day we will know why things had to be the way they were, in that day there will be no more tears or pain or loss of loved ones.

My prayers are with all those dealing with this burdon.

His Peace to you,

Joe

[Patrick]

Through the years I have seen this horrible nightmare appear in it's vicious reality with friends and acquaintances whose first reaction after the initial shock and grief is to wonder; "What could I have done to prevent this?" The truth of the matter is most often, nothing.
What a horrible thing for those left in the wake of this "final solution" to be sure the pain and suffering of your friend is going to be intense, we can only pray for His Peace to envelope the family through a knowledge that all will eventually be reconciled.

One day we will know why things had to be the way they were, in that day there will be no more tears or pain or loss of loved ones.

My prayers are with all those dealing with this burdon.

His Peace to you,

Joe

This is part of the "Free Will" teachings; it helped me with an experience several months ago, however, it did not help the family. If God has not opened their eyes and ears, they won't get it. And, they (family) just did not get it (just no way a "loving" God could have appointed this to them).

TIS TRUE: OUR DAYS ARE NUMBERED

    Continuing in Ecc. 3:2:

        "A time [an 'APPOINTED time'] to be born, and a time [an 'APPOINTED time] to die..."

    The whole point of Ecclesiastes chapter three is not that people are born and die, or that people plant and harvest, or that people war and make peace, or that people weep and laugh, but rather that there is "an APPOINTED TIME" for all these things to happen—an appointed time appointed BY GOD.
    This is not a new idea, or a new revelation. This truth has been preserved in chapter three of Ecclesiastes for a couple of thousand years. But how many Christians believe it?   

    Job understood under inspiration of God's Spirit that:

        "...the Lord gave and the Lord has taken away..." (Job

    1:21). Contrary to a letter I received from Dr. Frederick Price, who said that this verse in Job "is Scripture all right, but it just isn't true." Well far be it from me to argue the validity of the Scriptures with a carnal mind, but nonetheless, this verse of Scripture is true. It is always God Who gives and God Who takes away, even though He uses other agents such as Satan to carry out and accomplish His perfect and flawless will.

    God gives life and God takes life away. Most Christians would concede that human birth is indeed a miracle. But how many would concede that even death is a miracle? But it is. Birth and death are not things that "just happen" anymore than anything in the whole universe "just happens." God is the cause for everything:

        "In Whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him Who works ALL THINGS after the counsel of His Own will" (Eph. 1:11).

        "For OF HIM, and THROUGH HIM, and TO HIM, are ALL THINGS..." (Rom. 11:36).

    Is there any real difference in saying that God "gives life" or that God "causes a baby to be born?" Is there any real difference in saying that God "takes away life" or that God "causes us to die?" When it comes to death, we prefer euphemisms. We don't like to hear that "our Mother is DEAD!" We prefer to say that "Mother passed away." We don't want to be so honest or brutal as to say "God KILLED my son" but rather "God took my son." But the use of mellower-sounding euphemisms does not negate the fact that God appointed a time for us to be BORN, and He also has appointed a time when we must DIE.

    Our will cannot change any of God's "appointed events" or His "appointed times" in which each event must occur. You might think that you can. You might suggest that you will commit suicide and shorten your life. How silly—how totally unscriptural. No one can commit suicide unless and until the "appointed time" that God has foreordained that you commit suicide, if indeed God has ordained such a thing for you.
        "There is no man that has power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither has he power in [Heb: authority over'] the day of death..." (Ecc. 8:.

    Is this verse too difficult for anyone to understand? The Scriptures are clear:

        "...the Spirit gives life" (II Cor. 3:6).

        "His breath [Heb: ruach, 'spirit'] goes forth, he returns to his earth; I that very day his thoughts perish" (Psalm 146:4).

    One cannot continue to live without spirit.

        "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it" (Ecc. 12:7).

    And God says that

        "NO MAN has power over the spirit."

    The implications of this verse go far beyond mere suicide. This verse also confirms that no one can kill or murder another person until the "appointed time" set by God. No soldier or civilian has ever died even in war except at the "appointed time."

    There is probably not a person alive who has not wondered just exactly when he might die? We saw from Ecc. 1:2 that there is an appointed time "...to DIE." And Ecc. 8:8 tells us that

        "...no man has power over the spirit to retain it [when God takes our spirit, we die, Ecc. 12:7]; neither has he power over the day of [his] death..."

    But there's more:

        "Behold that which I have seen: it is good and comely for one to eat and to drink, and to enjoy the good of all his labor that he takes under the sun all the days of his life, which God gives him: for it is his portion." (Ecc. 5:18).

    This is not exactly what the Hebrew manuscripts say. Here is what it should read: "...during the NUMBER of days in his life..." The word for "all" as in "all the days of his life," is the Hebrew word, mispar, and its first definition is "NUMBER." Man's days are "NUMBERED." And God only knows the number.

    Here's another one:

        "Seeing his days are determined, the number of his months are with Thee, You have appointed his bounds that he cannot pass" (Job 14:5).

    The word "determined" comes from the Hebrew charats and means "to point sharply." Here we are told that man's "months" are determined to a precise sharp point in time. There will be no variation in time as to when we must die.

    Not only is our precise time of death appointed, but also our resurrection:

        "If a man die, shall he live again? All the days of my APPOINTED TIME will I wait [in the grave] till my change [resurrection] come" (Job 14:14).

    Another:

        "Is there not an APPOINTED TIME to man upon earth? Are not his DAYS also like the days of an hireling? (Job 7:1).

    Everyone who has ever been born or will yet be born has been appointed by God to be born at that time and season according the purpose of His will. And likewise, everyone who has died or will yet die has been appointed by God to die at that time and season according to the purpose of His will. It just is not possible to alter or change anything in the purpose and intention of a sovereign God. So once more, "free will" is out the window.

    If mankind had a free will to do things that only they desired to do, at the time that only they desired to do them, then there would be billions upon billions of additions and deletions to God's original plan. For it is foolishness to argue that one is "free" to do things that God has not preordained to happen, yet the very concept of free will demands that such unscriptural things can happen every day of our lives.

    Free will contradicts:

        "I know that, whatsoever God does, it shall be for ever [Heb:'for the eon']; nothing can be put to it, nor anything taken from it; and God does it, that men should fear before Him" (Ecc. 3:14).

        Ecc. 2:23—"For all his day, pains and vexation are his experience."

        Ecc. 1:13—"It is an experience of evil God has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it."

        Ecc. 9:12—"For a man also knows not his time: as the fishes that are taken in an evil net, and as the birds that are caught in the snare; so are the sons of men [mankind] snared [trapped] in an EVIL TIME."

    Does a fish know ahead of time when it will be caught in a net? Does a bird know ahead of time when it might be caught in a snare? No? You say, NO? Well then that's exactly how much you know in advance what will befall you in this life of evil. The human will is not free to change anything that God has pre-appointed. You will "will" according to the circumstances God places in your path. And you are not free to "will" otherwise.

    Between the birth of humanity and the death of humanity we find all of the following taking place at their appointed time:

        "plant and pluck... kill and heal... breakdown and build up... weep and laugh... mourn and dance... cast away and gather... embrace and not embrace... get and lose... keep and cast away... rend and sew... keep silence and speak... love and hate... war and peace..." (Ecc. 3:2-9).

    What we have here in Ecc. 3 is "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" and every shade of gray between good and evil. God takes us through such profound experiences as "war and peace," all the way down to tearing a piece of cloth and sewing it together again-"a time to rend [apart] and a time to sew [together]." Not only do we all tear our pants or tear our shirt at some time or another, but, there is actually a God-appointed time for these things to happen.

    I realize that this is a hard concept for most to believe, but this is indeed what God is emphasizing in this third chapter of Ecclesiastes: "To every thing there is a season [Heb: "an appointed season or time'], and a time to every purpose under the heaven." Can we believe it? Will we believe these grand declarations of God? Not if we are "free-willers" we won't.

    The will of the entire human race combined, cannot bend one blade of grass unless it was foreknown, foreordained, and appointed by God to happen. Read Ecclesiastes 3 and tell me otherwise.

    Clearly God tells us that there is an appointed time for everything that happens between birth and death. But nowhere does human free will and free choice enter into any of these God-ordained and God-caused and God-performed events in the lives of all who are born and die among the human race. Man's "will" is indeed able to always choose what it prefers, but what it prefers will always be in concert with what God has preordained.

    All the choices of all humanity are preordained by God to happen, and as such, not one is free to not happen. Therefore, no one has a will that can operate independent from or in opposition to, God's preordained purpose.

    How then is it possible to believe these Scriptures and yet believe in "free choices?" It is not possible, for these Scriptures blatantly contradict any such theory as "freely chosen acts" independent and contradictory to the will and plan of God. Seriously, if anyone can explain how someone can freely choose a course of action, [1] independent of God, or [2] bring about any course of action at a time other than pre-appointed by God, please drop me an email. I will now hold my breath....

    Let me assure my readers that I do not make light of the profound heartache, pain, and misery that God inflicts upon humanity. I am not a newcomer, nor a novice to the arena of heartache, pain, and misery. I have on numerous occasions suffered very severe pain. I have been "one knock from death's door" more than once. I have lost my only son when he was but seven years old. Although I can justify God in all His dealings with His creatures, yet I cringe at many of the atrocities deemed necessary for His plan and purpose. Do you think that I am able to take in stride the cruel and evil beheadings by terrorists in Iraq?

    We read that, "Jesus wept" as He perceived the near-at-hand destruction of Jerusalem. And yet He fully knew that it was all of God His Father, and at the appointed time Jerusalem and its citizens would be starved, tortured, and utterly destroyed by the armies of Titus. I too weep over the present evils of this world and those yet impending.

    GOD IS A STICKLER FOR DETAILS

    God doesn't only know the big things, like when you were to be born and when you are to die, but God know everything in between our birth and death.

    Just because God counts islands and whole nations as tiny drops or particles of dust, does not mean that He is not also aware of droplets of water and particles of dust (Isa. 40:15). Jesus said: "But the very hairs of your head are all numbered" (Matt. 10:30). Etc., etc., etc.

My prayers are with the family and yourself.

[josh]

JacieLeigh,

One day this life will make much more sense... I pray that that day comes quickly for us all.

   11So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth;
         It will not return to Me empty,
         Without accomplishing what I desire,
         And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.
    12"For you will go out with joy
         And be led forth with peace;
         The mountains and the hills will break forth into shouts of joy before you,
         And all the trees of the field will clap their hands.
    13"Instead of the thorn bush the cypress will come up,
         And instead of the nettle the myrtle will come up,
         And it will be a memorial to the LORD,
         For an everlasting sign which will not be cut off."

My prayers are with your friend, you and your community. Please let me know if there is anything else that I can do.

God's Peace.
Josh

[Robin]

jacieleigh,

I went through the same exact thing with my husband 31 years ago.

Please tell your friend there is hope and she will heal.

I've never been through anything worse and I know how horrible it is for her. My prayers go out to all involved. I'm here if she ever wants to talk. We can always look back in hindsight and think there is more we could have done. If we had known we would have done more. We didn't know.

Many hugs to all of you,
MG

[YellowStone]

Hi JacieLeigh,

I lost my brother not long ago in the very same way. I too have suffered depression and spent many many years living with suicidal thoughts. It is not pleasant and though I am not making excuses, the peace that many find far outways any pain that it might cause. I know my brother suffered badly. I do believe however, that hanging is a very selfish form of suicide, and I would not wish finding a loved one in that way on anyone. I will cerainly pray for your friend.

Your brother in Christ,
Darren

[ciy]

Patrick
Strong and timely post.  One should focus on that truth of scripture until it sinks deeply into their being so that they realize what God is saying.

I pray for eyes to be opened and peace in their hearts.
CIY

[jacieleigh]

Many thaks to all of you who gave me your words of comfort. Tonight was very hard because people came by to pay respects. A couple of times I had to walk away whenI would hear well-meaning people say to her " How are you doing?" Tomorrow evening will be the funeral and it will be hard. I will help her and their daughter as much as I can. Please keep the prayers going.

[Sue Creamer]

JacieLeigh,

Be encouraged, God is with you, and time will help to heal the heart.  I lost a brother to suicide also, and it is a hard thing to live through and deal with..!  I pray for God's peace and comfort in this most grievous time.

Sue Ann

[LittleBear]

Hi JacieLeigh,

My thoughts and prayers are with you and your friend. My husband has depression and has had thoughts of suicide. I'm thankful that he is on anti-depressants and is getting councelling help, but there just doesn't seem to be any reason for this, other than unresolved childhood issues that carry on into adulthood. He has a very good sense of humour, but uses humour to hide his feelings and to cover insecurities.

I'm glad you are there for your friend. I'll be thinking about you both today.

Love,

Ursula

[ez2u]

 Patrick  your post was inspiring   I will bear my self here.  this is a profound post that you have written   When my son Jon fell off the cliff 70 feet  his main injuries were to his head.  He was hitting his head on the rocks going down.  I went to church one Sundaywhere it happen and a young man came up to me and told me this story.  He also fell a bout 70 or so feet off a cliff and what happen to him was a bum leg and the knowledge of Salvation.  It was terrible at the time hearing this  but later I understood why God allow it, as you stated.  the your post. My heart goes out to this family but right now they are in shock  in about 1 month to 6 weeks, no real time frame,  they will begin to grief  that is the time they will need consolation and help. Compassionate Friends is an organization, or group of griefing people , that helps.  They help me.  please tell this young woman about them for me.  The first step to go there is very hard she will need support if you can maybe you can help her.  I don't mean to tell you what to do but these are nonjudgemental suggestions. God is with us  peggy

[Patrick]

Hi Peggy.
It is not I that is comforting this woman (directly); it is JacieLeigh.

My friend laid down on the railroad tracks and then shot herself. A neighbor heard the shot and went to where he thought it came from and found her.
The fact that she wanted a train to run over her, after she shot herself, is what is really disturbing to her family. They know my beliefs and I'll be the best friend I can be from 900 miles away.

[jacieleigh]

The funeral was last evening. It was awful and I guess good too. Many things were said that brought comfort but nothing can take the nightmare away. My friend is not sleeping so I am not sleeping much either. I got her to sleep about 4 hrs. Tues. night and she slept about 5 hrs. last night. She woke up with his pillow in her arms and immediately was devastated again when she realized she would never hold him again. She doesn't understand why and I don't either. I told her she would go through every emotion from sadness to anger. I told her that no matter what anyone else says, she will have to grieve and have her period of mourning in her own way. I told her I will be here whenever she needs me.

[josh]

You are a good friend, JacieLeigh.

[Robin]

jacieleigh,

Maybe an anti-depressant would be helpful right now.

I know I got Post Traumatic Stress Disorder after finding my husband. It is something that has stayed with me through all these years. If I could do it over I would have gone right to grief counseling to debrief and taken an anti-depressant. They did not know about PTSD back in my day though and I suffered through extreme panic attacks and agoraphobia for years. They called it an adjustment disorder back then. 25% of people do get PTSD after a traumatic event.

I don't know if she has been to Social Security yet or what her situation is, but she is also entitled to survivor's benefits.

She is very fortunate to have you in her life. I had no one and no one wants to talk about a suicide after the funeral. It is something they avoid like the plague. Friends disappear rather quickly.

Many hugs and prayers for all of you.

MG

[YellowStone]

JackieLeigh, I agree with MG 100% I too took anti depressants for many years. They were mild and allowed me to live, and sleep. I guess they took the emptiness away which was by far the worst feeling I have ever had.

Let me say, that my depression was due to a chemical imbalance due to massive head injuries. This is all andidepressants do, to fill in the missing bits. Oh, mine were unaddictive and I often forgot to take them. I cannot speak highly enough of them, because no amount of positive thinking, prayer or counseling helpped in the least. The effects were immediate.

Any way, these are just my thoughts,

Darren

[DuluthGA]

God bless you MG for what you went through with your husband's suicide and how alone you were at the time.  I am sorrowful for you and realize along with you, yet in a different way, that there are some sorrows that never quite fade away..... although one fine day they will.

I offer the three verses that show our Lord knew grief and bore our grieving, and for that I am thankful and praise Him:

Isaiah 53: 3-4, 10    He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
[4] Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
[10] Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

In Christ's love,
Janice

[angie]

Hi JacieLeigh,

I haven't participated in the forum for a while but felt compelled to reply to your post.

I myself was in this situation a couple of years ago now. [at the time I was sure I would never survive it but... here we are]

At the time I had no personal relationship with God or thoughts about Jesus, just a load of mixed up theories based on too many bad movies and opinions of other people with no authority on the subject. I had questions, lots of them, like, what happens to the spirit of people who commit suicide. Was it my fault. Why didn't I notice. Was it my fault.Why was my email program closed when he sent me his goodbye email when it was NEVER closed any other time. Was it my fault.Why did he leave me and his family. Was it my fault. Why wasn't the love people had for him enough. Was it my fault. The number one issue was the guilty feelings brought on by thinking ...If only I....... How arrogant of me, to think I personally could have done anything to prevent something only God is capable of arranging.

"There is no man that has power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither has he power in [Heb: authority over'] the day of death..." (Ecc. 8:.

Whilst personally at that time, I did not and would not believe that any loving God worth his salt would do such a thing, I truly have come to realise that even when we don't understand the whys, that there is a reason that will in some way be for the good of those involved even though we may never see it in this life. God certainly got MY attention even although it initially was anger. I have to say that it wasn't until I was so broken, and wished with my whole heart that I was dead myself, that I started getting really aquainted with Him. God always means it to the good.

The main thing here though is that you are a good and supportive friend, even if you don't understand the reasons either. Guilt is a terribly destructive force if left to carry on unchecked, even though it too has it's place in the world.

Although it seems at the moment that this is a never-ending nightmare from which there is no escape, I would wish for you and your friend comfort in knowing [if only from the experiences of many others on the forum at this time] that there is life for the bereaved after the death of a loved one, regardless of how they died, but importantly, even after a suicide. Quite a few here can attest to that.

I know it is a cliche, but its a cliche because it happens to be true. Time heals. When more of it is passed and everything happens that is meant to happen within that time, you will both feel better. Whilst its true that nothing will be the same again, it doesn't mean it will be bad, just different. I pray that God comforts you both and gives you hope for the future.

Angie

[dawnnnny]

beautiful response Angie, God bless your heart