> General Discussions
The upright and the wicked
Kat:
Hi Iris,
Pro 2:21 Righteous people---people of integrity---will live in this land of ours.
v. 22 But God will snatch the wicked from the land and pull sinners out of it like plants from the ground. (GNB)
I like the way the Good News Bible says this. And as Joe provided a host of scripture to show, I think this is the time when Christ will rule the earth and will begin to bring salvation to all.
Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
iris:
Joe, Sonofone, and kat,
I would like to thank you for your comments and for the many scriptures that you have laid out for me to read and study.
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Zephaniah 2:3 Seek ye the Lord, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the Lord's anger.
Psalm 37:9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the Lord, they shall inherit the earth.
verse 11 But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.
verse 22 For such as he be blessed of him shall inherit the earth; and they that be cursed of him shall be cut off.
verse 28 For the Lord loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever; but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.
verse 29 The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever.
Isaiah 57:13 When thou criest, let thy companies deliver thee; but the wind shall carry them all away; vanity shall take them: but he that putteth his trust in me shall possess the land, and shall inherit my holy mountain:
Isaiah 60:21 Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified.
Nehemiah 9:6 Thou, even thou, art Lord alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshipeth thee.
Matthew 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
There are a lot more scriptures that say that those who trust in God will inherit the earth.
Are we going to be perfect humans and live here on the earth or are we going to be spirit creatures that have no form and are invisible?
This is what is confusing me!!!
Does anyone have an answer for this???
Peace and Love
Iris
hillsbororiver:
Hello Iris,
The elect will be perfect Sons and Daughters of God meeting and greeting Him to the earth to bring about the work of the Fall Harvest. Ray shows (Kat please help me with where in Ray's articles this is spoken of) that "meeting" the Lord means that we all return to the original destination (of the esteemed Arrivor), very much like when we anticipate a welcomed guest arriving at our home we sit by the window and when they are near we run out to greet them, bringing them into our home.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
The elect will "meet" the Lord in the air and return to the earth to assist in bringing the rest of mankind to God through Judgment, the elect will already be transformed into incorruptible and immortal Sons and Daughters, to my knowledge it is not clear what state the rest of humanity will be in or what transpires after the Harvest, only that we are promised that God will be All in All and that everyone will gain Sonship, Daughtership with our heavenly Father.
As far as being here on earth the elect will inherit it with Christ until everyone is saved and the Lord presents the Father with His children, the chosen will have spiritual bodies like Christ and like Him I am sure will be able to present themselves in any form that suits the Divine purpose and plan of God in bringing everyone to Him, what happens after that is not revealed, at least to my understanding.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
The elect with Christ will rule and judge the earth in the next age, what happens after that is pure speculation but we can be sure it will be a spiritual and not a physical existence, there may be physical entities and properties but His Children will be spirit.
His Peace and Wisdom to you Sister,
Joe
iris:
Joe,
Thank you so much for helping me to understand.
It makes sense now. :)
I remember Ray talking about the Elect going up to meet the Lord in the air, and then coming back to the earth with him. But I can't remember in which article it was.
Thank you again Brother.
Peace and Love
Iris
Kat:
Hi Iris and Joe,
I put together some excerpts from the article 'Exposing the "Secret Rapture" Theory' that I thought went along with what is being discussed :)
http://bible-truths.com/rapture.htm --------------------------------
It is God’s plan and purpose to bring many sons into His family. When new Jerusalem descends out of heaven, it is stated that God will dwell with them on the earth. Did we think that God will be dwelling in New Jerusalem all by Himself, alone? That would, of course, defeat His very purpose of "dwelling with them."
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"And the Lord my God shall come, And all the saints WITH Him" (Zech. 14:7).
Clearly it is when He "shall come," (not after He came), that they are gathered "with Him."
Revelation 14 does not mention the Mount of Olives, but rather mount Zion, where the 144,000 are with Christ, but it doesn’t say that this is the very spot on which they were gathered initially.
Matt. 24 definitely includes the Jewish saints in that assembling and the actual gathering does not take place on the Mount of Olives. If by the "air" it is speaking of the literal air in our atmosphere (rather than to the jurisdiction of power said to be in the air in Eph. 2:2, which is more likely), then there are at least three proofs that this meeting in Matt. 24 takes place in the same "air" as I Thes. 4. Read Matt. 24:31 carefully:
1. "And He shall be dispatching His messengers with a loud sounding trumpet, and they shall be assembling His chosen from the four WINDS ..." (Mat. 24:31). Webster’s wind, moving AIR! (Emphasis mine).
2. "... and they shall see the Son of Mankind coming on the clouds of heaven with Power and much glory" (Mat. 24:30). Clouds are only found "in the air." Even fog is still "in the air." No clouds rise righter than "the air."
3. Although it doesn’t actually say that Christ came from outer space to then be located on the clouds of heaven, many, nonetheless, assume such a thing. Regardless, wind is in heaven, clouds are in heaven, and air is in heaven. To come from any of them requires being "in the air." And as all astronauts know it is not possible to return to earth without going through "the air." There may be "holes" in the ozone, but there are no holes "in the air."
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We can learn something remarkable from the way that God uses the word "meet" in this Scripture.
"Thereupon we, the living who are surviving, shall at the same time be snatched away together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air." (I Thes. 4:17).
In this verse as in three others, God uses the Greek word apatesis which is translated "to meet." It is distinguished from a half dozen other Greek words which are variously translated, "meet,’ "meet with," "meeting," "meeting with," etc. The Greek word apatesis, is, however, used only three other times.
One authority tells us that this word apatesis was used in ancient times to describe the actions of an official welcoming delegation that had been sent "to meet" a visiting dignitary.
It is said that the word literally meant, "meeting and returning with." Not being an etymologist, historian, or scholar, I can’t speak with any authority here, but I can use a concordance and I can read the Scriptures. Let’s look at these three occasions and see if, indeed, this word carries the connotation of "meeting and returning with."
1. "Now in the middle of the night a clamor occurs: Lo! The bridegroom! Come out to meet [apatesis] Him!" (Matt. 25:6).
Comment: After they went out to meet the bridegroom, they didn’t stay outside, but rather they came back inside with the Bridegroom. Remember, it is "midnight" and it is dark--that’s why they took oil for their torches. They went out to meet the Bridegroom, then returned with Him to the house, and locked the door.
2. When Christ began His entrance into Jerusalem (which was itself a type of His triumphant return to Jerusalem), many people went out with palm fronds to meet Him.
"On the morrow the vast throng, who are coming for the festival, hearing that Jesus is coming into Jerusalem, got fronds of palms and came out to meet [apatesis] Him" (John 12:13).
Needless to say, they did not return with Christ back to Bethany, but returned back into Jerusalem with Christ.
3. When the saints in Rome heard of Paul’s soon arrival, they went out to meet him.
"And thence the brethren, hearing about us, come to meet [apatesis] us as far as Appii Forum and Three Taverrns, perceiving whom, Paul, thanking God, took courage. Now when we entered Rome" (Acts 28:15-16).
And again, it is seen that they returned back to Rome with Paul, they did not return with Paul back to Puteoli.
The fourth time this Greek word apatesis is translated "to meet" is in I Thes. 4:17: "... we, the living who are surviving, shall at the same time be snatched away together with them in the clouds, to meet [apatesis] the Lord in the air."
Based on all the usage's of this word apatesis [to meet], and we read them all, when someone went out to meet someone else, where did they always go next? That’s right, back where they came from. So if God is consistent with the use of this word, then when the saints of I Thes. 4 meet the Lord in the air, they will then return with Christ back to the EARTH!
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At Christ’s second coming He gathers His elect and sets up His kingdom. Twice Paul tells us that the elect will be gathered at the sound of a trumpet (I Thes. 4:16), at the last trump (I Cor. 15:52), and it is then when the saints (ALL the saints, I Thes.3:13) will receive their "rest and ease" from the trials and sorrows of this life, and Paul plainly says that this will occur: "... AT the unveiling of the Lord Jesus from heaven with His powerful messengers, in flaming fire, dealing out vengeance to those who are not acquainted with God and those who are not obeying the evangel of our Lord Jesus Christ
Now this is not hard to follow. The above is Paul’s description of how Christ will return for "all who believe." He comes in power and glory and is dealing out vengeance to the ungodly and is being glorified in His saints. This same description of His second coming is found in Rev 11:15-18, "... And loud voices occurred in heaven, saying, ‘The kingdom of this world became our Lord’s and His Christ’s and He shall be reigning for the eons of the eons. Amen!’... Thou hast taken Thy great power and does reign. And the nations are angered, and Thy indignation came, and the era for the dead to be judged, and to give their wages to thy slaves, the prophets, and to the SAINTS and to those fearing Thy name, the small and the great ..."
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"The heaven, even the heavens, are the Lord’s; but the EARTH hath He given to the children of men" (Psalm 115:6). One more, "... for we are your glorying (even as you also are ours) in THE DAY OF OUR LORD JESUS" (II Cor. 1:14).
I seriously doubt whether anyone could prove to us that the place where God dwells, "heaven," is actually a specific geographical location so many light years from the earth on some galactic rock in outer space. In the same way "eternity" is not "a very long time." They are both a condition or a realm. God is in us, while He is in Heaven, while He is also simultaneously, EVERYWHERE!
FROM WHERE DO WE JUDGE?
1. "Or are you not aware that the saints shall judge THE WORLD? And if the world is being judged by you, are you unworthy of the least tribunals? Are you not aware that we shall be judging MESSENGERS, not to mention life’s affairs?" Notice that the same "you" and "we" are to judge the "world" AND "messengers." And the judging of messengers is linked with judging "life’s affairs." "Life’s affairs is not something going on in OUTER SPACE! Life’s affairs are things on the earth, which is the same location at which we will be "judging messengers!" And these two judgments are not separated by thousands of years.
2. I have never gone into outer space, however, guess what? I have and still do wrestle creatures among the celestials! "... for it is not ours to wrestle with blood and flesh, but with the sovereignties, with the authorities, with the world mights of this darkness, with spiritual forces of wickedness AMONG THE CELESTIALS" (Eph. 6:12)! Now think for a moment, if we can right here and now, from the earth, wrestle with creatures among the celestials, why can’t we also judge and instruct them as well, FROM THE EARTH?
3. When Christ returns to set up His kingdom on earth, He brings the place of authority or rulership that He has prepared for the apostles with Him so that "... where I am, YOU ALSO MAY BE" (John 14:3). During Christ’s reign on earth His apostles will be WITH THE LORD. Now notice I Thes. 4:17 where it is stated that when Christ returns to the Gentile saints "... thus shall we always be together WITH THE LORD ..." We also will be with the Lord on the earth, not in outer space.
There is much that could be said regarding how Christ actually comes and what He will do after He arrives. Will He literally ride out of Heaven on a flying white horse with fire shooting out of His eyes and a long sword coming out of His mouth followed by literal armies ready to do battle against the few remaining and helpless humans on earth, and all this happening while the lightning is flashing and silver trumpets are blasting? Probably NOT. But, just like the rest of Revelation, the things that these symbols, metaphors, and figurative language represent will certainly be GLORIOUS, but that’s a subject for another paper. Remember that we have God’s promise that the wise shall understand. We all need to pray for wisdom, that’s for sure.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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