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meaning of lost?
javajoe:
Hi everyone,
This may be a silly question, but in light of the truth that God is reconciling all of humanity to himself, and we are all saved, what does being "lost" mean in the first place? The old definition I heard most of my life was eternal punishment. It can't mean aeonian punishment, since we are all saved from being lost, the only thing I can think of is death, "for the wages of sin is death", So does it mean, if Christ hadn't paid the penalty for death, would we all have just rotted in the grave forever, never to be resurrected? Maybe it is in Ray's teaching and I just overlooked it. Somebody help me!!
JavaJoe
hillsbororiver:
Hi Javajoe,
Yes, all would be over and we would have no hope once we hit the grave unless Jesus was resurrected. We all have been "lost" every man or woman who ever drew a breath, lost in bondage to sin and eventual death, we will all be "found" and saved in the time appointed by God.
(We are all the Prodigal son, we are also all the "one lost sheep" spoken of in the parable in Matthew 18.)
1Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Cor 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Cor15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Cor 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Cor 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
Ray addresses this here in LOF Part 4;
DESTROYED, PERISHED, AND LOST
DESTROYED: Is being destroyed a condition from which there is not salvation? Jesus said,
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him which is able to DESTROY both soul and body in hell [the Greek is "gehenna" NOT hell. It is ‘gehenna fire,’ Mat. 5:22, not ‘hell fire’]" (Matt. 10:28).
Is there no salvation from this "destruction" in gehenna fire? Notice that they are not "eternally lost" in gehenna fire, but they are "DESTROYED" in gehenna fire. Their condition is that of being DESTROYED. This is not a hopeless condition or even our own Lord would have been put into a hopeless condition.
"Jesus answered and said unto them, DESTROY this temple, and in three days I will raise it up ... but He spake of the temple of His BODY" (John 2:19 & 21).
Later they did destroy Jesus Christ and sure enough three days later God SAVED Jesus from that destruction.
Notice what Job said with relation to being "destroyed":
"Thine hands have made me and fashioned me together round about; yet Thou dost DESTROY me" (Job 10:8).
Yet Job knew that God would yet save him. In Jeremiah 18 God tells Jeremiah to go down to the Potter’s house and observe him work. Jeremiah sees the potter destroy a marred work in his hand and refashion it into something useful. This we learn is an analogy of how God would "destroy" Judah (Ver. 7), and yet save him in the end. God will refashion all of marred (destroyed) mankind into glorious sons of God!
PERISHED: Can a person perish and still be saved? Of course. Even "righteous" men can perish,
"All things have I seen in the days of my vanity: there is a JUST MAN that PERISHES in his righteousness, and there is a wicked man that prolongs his life in his wickedness" (Ecc. 7:15).
One more,
"The RIGHTEOUS PERISHES, and no man lays it to heart..." (Isa. 57:1).
Perishing is not something that can cut off God’s arm of salvation.
LOST: Can a person sin, be lost, die, and then be saved? Certainly. Let’s look at one of those parables of Jesus that Christendom thinks are easy to understand little stories, when in fact they don’t even begin to understand. You all know the story contained in the parable of the Prodigal son so I won’t read it all, but let me give you the "truth" of this parable.
God is the "Father" in this parable, and the Prodigal is EVERY SON WHO HAS GONE ASTRAY.
"And when he had spent all ... And when he came to himself ... I will arise and go to my father ... I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight ... And am no more worthy to be called thy son ... But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet. And bring hither the fatted calf ... For this my son was DEAD, and is alive again; he was LOST, and is found. And they began to be merry" (Luke 15:14-23).
This man SINNED, he was LOST, and he SPIRITUALLY DIED! Do we ALL spiritually DIE? "AND AS IT IS APPOINTED UNTO MEN ONCE TO DIE..." But isn’t this speaking of the PHYSICAL death of our bodies? No it is not. The second part of the verse gives us the answer as to which death this is,
"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but AFTER this the JUDGMENT" (Heb. 9:27).
Notice that "judgment" comes after this death, and not before. We already learned that JUDGMENT is upon the house of God NOW! Each individual Christian in every generation is judged NOW, in THIS life, BEFORE he physically dies! And so the "death" that all men must partake of before judgment is SPIRITUAL DEATH. Notice:
"And I saw THE DEAD, small and great, STAND before God" (Rev. 20:12).
How pray tell can the physically dead, stand, if they are dead?
So here then is the order of things. The Prodigal Son SINNED, he was LOST, he spiritually DIED, and then? And then he was JUDGED! Where and when was he judged? In the hog pens of a far alien country, that’s where. God had to bring him out of this alien county (Mystery Babylon the Great) with all its "riotous living" (Luke 15:13). And so it was that God JUDGED this Prodigal with the beasts and swine of Babylon until he "came to himself." (Ver. 17). Seems to me that God sent King Nebuchadnezzer into the fields with the beasts to live like a beast, so that he too "came to himself." God has not warned in vain to
"Come out of her [MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH] my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues" (Rev. 17:5 & 18:4).
Him that has an ear, let him hear.
And so this Prodigal SINNED, was LOST, and spiritually DIED. Surely he is outside of the realm of salvation now. No, he is in the perfect realm FOR SALVATION. How many millions of times this parable of the Prodigal Son has been read, but how many times has its truth ever been understood and perceived? This prodigal was, according to his father, "DEAD." And it was after his father said that he was "dead" that he welcomed him back, forgave him, exalted him, and rewarded him! Now who says one can’t be saved after death. It is after death that most of humanity will be saved.
May God finally grant you to SEE SOMETHING SPIRITUAL! Parables are NOT literal, that’s why they are called "parables" instead of "history." This parable pictures the carnal mind going the way of the flesh. What are the wages of living a riotous life in the alien land of lustful Babylon? Is it "life and joy in the holy spirit?" I speak as fool. Here is the wages of riotous and carnal living in the hog pens of Babylon: "For the wages of sin is DEATH..." (Rom. 6:23). SPIRITUAL DEATH! What must happen AFTER we spiritually DIE? "JUDGMENT!" The spiritual DEAD must be JUDGED. Does judging CORRECT the spiritually dead sinners? Yes it does. That is what the parable of the Prodigal Son is all about. God’s "ways and means" ALWAYS WORK!
"...For when Thy [God’s] JUDGMENTS are in the earth, the INHABITANTS OF THE WORLD WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Isa. 26:9)!
Read it all here;
http://bible-truths.com/lake4.html
Hope this helps!
Joe
insanezenmistress:
--- Quote from: javajoe on September 20, 2007, 08:07:13 AM ---Hi everyone,
This may be a silly question, but in light of the truth that God is reconciling all of humanity to himself, and we are all saved, what does being "lost" mean in the first place?
JavaJoe
--- End quote ---
In light of the eventaul reconciliation of all things toward God,lost would be not knowing you are part of that reconciliation. Our sin, our attachment to sinning, will lead to death and dieing, for our ignorance and willfullness will provoke the Lord's ...erm, holy impaitence......Therefore God sent Jesus, Himself, to us, to live with us and to carry our attonment for our sin, even while we are yet commiting them.
lets suppose God had not sent Christ.
Would we be rotting in grave? I think our version of Hell would be, that God will make mroe strict and more firm the Laws, and we would be held accountable to every sin. The Ressurection would still have been HAD! We would eventaully come to stand before the Light of Truth. But with out god's stooping down to our level, and taking our death for us, and our willignness to acknowledge that we where incapible of pleaseing the Lord, Our judgement would be death, and death , and great suffering for each broken rule of GOD.
Some will chose that. They will trust in their own understanding. These who dont need grace and mercy will be judged according to the method they ahve judged in life. These people better hope they got SOME THINGS spot on, or they will crumble under their own measure.
IN light of reconciliation, thank God he no longer has to keep killing us in horrible ways, he can jsut lake of fire us for a good long while, untill we learn our lesson.......visious god!.........HE is not visious, WE ARE. HE is infinate mercy, even while spanking the "hell" out of us. It is according to our understanding, therefore he teaches us to seek according to His understanding.
Lost would be no seeking of truth, lost would be absent from recovery.
In which case the Shepherd will dilligently search for them, and break them if nessacary, that they would learn to heed his Voice. And come to know Truth. AS hes has saught them, and fed them, while they where lost and while he goes to find them and bring them back.
IZM
jacieleigh:
This doesn't really answer the questions right but I think we are all lost from time to time. With the tragedy of this week, I feel quite lost right now. Not lost from God but lost from understanding this life we live.
hillsbororiver:
Mat 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.622
G622
ἀπόλλυμι
apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.
I guess the short answer is Jesus came to save those who otherwise would always remain perished and destroyed and give them a new perfect life.
This present life in the flesh is not to be held on to, it is imperfect, corruptible and brief, even in the best case scenario. We are admonished to aspire to life in Christ, in His Spirit, which will be perfect, incorruptible and immortal (after the resurrection).
His Peace to you,
Joe
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