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meaning of lost?
DuluthGA:
Thanks Arcturus,
Now that you mention the emphasis you see... I now see it too: :)
--- Quote ---Your post and observations highlight and underscore for me that we do not know if we are chosen while in this life. I think we may say with certainty that we are called yet many are called so there is no distinction in this. Not for me anyway.
--- End quote ---
Add to this what Kat said then quoted you: "But I also agree with what you said in that..."
--- Quote ---...we can't be sure; Yet He is with us writing our circumstances and making us into vessels for His honour or vessels of dishonour. Finding out which one we are being made into is where I believe the fear and trembling is appropriate.
--- End quote ---
What I think may throw some people off is where writers like Ray, and of course many others, use the phrase "we the elect" such as found in Ray's quote that Kat posted:
So eonian fire cannot be eternal, or we, God's chosen Elect, would go through Gehenna fire for all eternity.
I believe this is for the sake of ease in writing style and carries the implication that THIS IS A PROCESS UNTO THE END. Righto?
Good analogy and post Gregor, For myself, I would just switcheroo "This is why we must remain "IN" Christ" to "this is why Christ must remain in us", simply for my own clarity as there is essentially nothing I can do myself to garner His favor.
Thanks also for your comments Moises..... and you are inquiring more about self-judgment... hmmmm... Good question, and just to start you in a good direction, here is one of Ray's main papers on the subject in his Lake of Fire series, Judgment by Fire Must Begin at the House of God:
http://bible-truths.com/lake3.html
Thanks all -- good thread! :)
Janice
Deborah-Leigh:
Hello Janice
You observe : What I think may throw some people off is where writers like Ray, and of course many others, use the phrase "we the elect" such as found in Ray's quote that Kat posted:
So eonian fire cannot be eternal, or we, God's chosen Elect, would go through Gehenna fire for all eternity.
I believe this is for the sake of ease in writing style and carries the implication that THIS IS A PROCESS UNTO THE END. Righto?
Yes. I believe you have identified not only a possible pit fall into wrong comprehension that might catch the imagination and stoke the pride of some of the less mature students of the Word of God, but this observation also shows a mature understanding of Gods process, ways, truths and life that are most beneficially and accurately taught via Ray.
As Ray says :
....you and I do not know exactly who is and who isn't an elect. Only God's knows those who are His....http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2059.0.html
Peace be to you
Arcturus :)
Gregor:
Greetings Janice,
You said (as it echo's many people's belief), "Good analogy and post Gregor, For myself, I would just switcheroo "This is why we must remain "IN" Christ" to "this is why Christ must remain in us", simply for my own clarity as there is essentially nothing I can do myself to garner His favor."
I disagree somewhat. I think many are confusing the idea between choice and "free-will". Ray made a comparison of us to a computer, in that, we can make choices based on what has been programmed in. Like you said, as long as Christ remains in us (ie. programmed in) we can choose to be obedient or not by the power of His indwelling Spirit. We are commanded to keep His commandments, and thus we are accountible and thus "garner his favor."
John 15:5,10, NKJV "5. I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing...10. If you keep My commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love."
So I view it as a partnership of sorts. We become one by keeping his commandments. Like a computer, regardless of what's been programmed in, if you unplug it from the power source, it just won't work. Just something to ponder.
All the best,
G.
sonofone:
I hate to chime in here in the middle of this discourse,Nonetheless here I go.Why fear or tremble over what you cannot control? If you play no part in Gods plan, why do anything?Fear,trembling worrying,pondering does nothing if God has not made you elect,or chosen.I have to side with Gregor here we are accountable.By and through the spirit we can make choices to follow God,and work out our soul salvation with fear and trembling,by consciously making the choice to remain in Christ IE following or walking after the spirit.
Kat:
Hi Moises,
You stated;
--- Quote --- That’s what I have seen so far and I am not sure I could see my self right now considering my self a chosen while I am very busy trying to judge my self often.
--- End quote ---
I think you have a very good attitude. It is hard to put a title on ones self, as to be the chosen, elect, saint, believer, but I think we can come to understand if we are a disciple/learner.
It seems to me that quite a few have their eyes opened, the thing that is the determining factor is enduring to the end. As Paul said we must press on toward the calling of God in Jesus Christ.
Phi 3:12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own.
v. 13 Brethren, I do not consider that I have made it my own; but one thing I do, forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead,
v. 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
v. 15 Let those of us who are mature be thus minded; and if in anything you are otherwise minded, God will reveal that also to you.
Here is excerpts from the lake of fire article no. 8, it has a good bit about being chosen.
http://bible-truths.com/lake8.html -------------------
Let me first state that there is an order in the process of being called to Sonship. First you are called, and then you are chosen from among the called. And we have already learned that the "chosen" are also the "few." Quite frankly, not unlike a casting call. Many are called to come to the casting rehearsal, but only a relative few will be chosen for the actual performance. Which are you? I will not be your personal judge, however, as we progress in this series, you will be confronted with dozens of Scriptures by which you can JUDGE YOURSELF by the aid of God’s Spirit.
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THE "CALLED" AND THE "NOT CALLED"
"For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many [some, but not many] wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.
But God has chosen the foolish things [many translations do not insert the word "things" in these verses] of the world to confound the wise; and God has chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And the base things of the world, and things which are despised, has God chosen, yes, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: that no flesh should glory in His presence" (I Cor. 1:26-29).
So we see that God calls MOSTLY those who are: weak, base, despised, nothings! Are we to believe that God is going to build a SPIRITUAL ARMY of Sons and Daughters by which He will conquer and SAVE THE WORLD?
Hard to believe, isn’t it? I think we can all agree that there is a great deal of work to be done with and to these "nothings of the world" whom God is calling to such a formidable, once-in-an-eternity task!
But of the "many called," we are told, "few are chosen" (Matt. 20:16). Why is that? God has intended it to be such. We are given the parable of the "sower of seed" where much of the seed fell by the side of the tilled soil, and the birds ate it; some had no depth and withered in the sun; still more fell among thorns and were chocked, but some fell upon good soil and produced much fruit. Many seed are sown, but few seed produce good fruit. "Seed" we see everywhere in the Church; "fruit" of God’s spirit is more rare. These few have the added designation of:
"These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for He is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with Him are called, and chosen, and faithful" (Rev. 17:14).
These are the "very elect" who cannot be deceived any longer by the Great Whore, "Mystery Babylon the Great, Mother of Harlots, and the Abominations of the earth."
One more important verse regarding our calling, that I will cite out of the Concordant Literal New Testament because I believe they translate the Greek aorist tense properly, whereas the King James uses the past tense:
"Now we are aware that GOD [it is unfortunate that the King James leaves out "God" even though it is in the manuscripts. Most translations do put "God" in this opening phrase. Things don’t just ‘work’ together without GOD doing the ‘working’] is working all together for the good of those who are loving God, who are [being] called according to the purpose that, whom He foreknew, He designates beforehand, also, to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be Firstborn among many brethren. Now whom He designates beforehand, these He calls [not ‘called’ as all are NOT YET called, it is the aorist tense] also, and whom He calls, these He justifies, also; now whom He justifies, these He glorifies also" (Rom. 8:28:30).
Now, pay attention: All which God foreknew, He then designates beforehand (He hand-picks them, if you will). And therefore, since He has already designated them beforehand, when they are born in whatever generation God designates; He then calls them. Now it is true that God calls MANY OTHERS whom He has NOT designated to be "conformed to the image of His Son" AT THE TIME that each generation appears in history.
There are many more "called" in each generation than are actually, "chosen" to be conformed to the image of His Son at that time.
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We need to get very serious for a moment. Salvation culminates for the believer in the First Resurrection to spiritual life and immortality. However, before that time, during the life of each believer, there are warnings in the Scriptures about ways that one can become disqualified from being in the first resurrection. Let’s notice just a few of them:
1. "Wherefore let him that thinks he stands take heed LEST HE FALL" (I Cor. 11:4).
2. "If they should FALL AWAY, to renew them again unto repentance…" (Heb. 6:6), and
3. "For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins. But a certain fearful looking for of JUDGMENT and fiery indignation [the lake of fire] which shall devour the adversaries" (Heb. 10:26-27).
4. "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; you are FALLEN FROM GRACE" (Gal. 5:4).
5. "Looking diligently lest any man FAIL OF THE GRACE of God…" (Heb. 12:15).
6. "They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation FALL AWAY" (Luke 8:13).
7. "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a FALLING AWAY first…" (II The. 2:3).
8. "But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should A CASTAWAY [Gk: disqualified]" (I Cor. 9:27).
9. "Now the Spirit speaks expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron" (I Tim. 4:1).
10. "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the LATTER END IS WORSE WITH THEM THAN THE BEGINNING [before they were converted]. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, TO TURN FROM the holy commandment delivered unto them" (II Peter 2:20-21).
11. "And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough [having begun to follow Christ] and looking back [desiring his old sinful life again] IS FIT FOR THE KINGDOM OF GOD" (Luke 9:62).
Don’t think that these verses were written in vain. Jesus said that "many" would say to Him in that day, "Lord, Lord…," but Jesus will tell them to "depart." It is not enough to accept Jesus Christ as your Saviour and go no further. You must continue growing spiritually. We must CONTINUE following Christ all the days of our life.
"Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on Him, If you CONTINUE in My word, then are you my disciples indeed" (John 8:31).
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Jesus Christ overcame EVERYTHING IN THE WORLD, INCLUDING THE WORLD! And here is God’s command to the believer who would become an overcomer and conqueror in Christ Jesus:
"Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world, If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world [which MUST be overcome and conquered!]" (I John 2:15-16).
We are to also "overcome the world" just as Jesus did. Not by ourselves, but by Jesus "Christ IN us, the hope of GLORY." Christ lives His life IN the believer, and in the believer Christ will, "overcome the world," over and over again in each new believer. And then one day, Jesus Christ will say to YOU, "Sit with Me on My throne—We are going to save the Universe together."
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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