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Author Topic: Vengance is mine saith the Lord?  (Read 23790 times)

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sonofone

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Re: Vengance is mine saith the Lord?
« Reply #20 on: September 26, 2007, 06:15:06 PM »

I still don't see where I am missing it? Eve was deceived then she sinned. This is scripture. Ist Corinthians 10 vs 13There is no temptation taken you but such as is common to man,but God is faithful,WHO WILL NOT PERMIT YOU TO BE TEMPTED ABOVE THAT YE ARE ABLE.but will with the temptation also make the way to escape so that ye may bear it. Yes Adam could have chose the tree of life that's why it was there, that's why God had to cast him from the garden and then guard it. Again that's scripture.Adam was not deceived he chose to follow his wife and willfully disobeyed God. that too is scripture this sin caused sin to enter into the world. This is also scripture.It is of utmost importance to realise that Adam chose freely to sin whether God intended this or not he chose to sin and he could have chose differently.The choice was his. Think about it the serpent tempted him just as he did Jesus Neither Adam or Jesus was deceived by the serpent.Only Jesus remained obedient to the will of God and Adam disobeyed only Eve was deceived by the serpent.I don't believe that God punishes man for making him a sinner,rather he punishes man for sinning through Adam.
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Gregor

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Re: Vengance is mine saith the Lord?
« Reply #21 on: September 26, 2007, 06:29:29 PM »

Greetings Arcturus,
You said:
"Here is a Scripture that forms part of the response to Gergor regarding our emotions and our heart condition that begins as being spiritually weak by God's design and purpose."
I think that is very accurate.

Pss.111:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.

Prov.9:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.

Our Spiritual awakening begins when we recognize our condition and need for change, but progresses from service out of a fear (aka respect) to one out of sheer love. Unless we first "hate" evil, we will never learn to "love" good, and there is none good but the Father, which leads to producing the fruit of the spirit.

Peace
G.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2007, 06:34:09 PM by Gregor »
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Vengance is mine saith the Lord?
« Reply #22 on: September 26, 2007, 06:39:39 PM »

sonofone

The way of escape is through fire.

Gregor

You say : Our Spiritual awakening begins when we recognize our condition and need for change, but progresses from service out of a fear (aka respect) to one out of sheer love. Until we "hate" evil, we will never learn to "love" good, and there is none good but the Father.

for me our Spiritual blindness reverses into sight when His Spirit touches us and starts to heal us via repentance and forgiveness. The consequence of such is that yes, we start to see our condition and we begin to loath the sinfulness we see within ourselves. Then we see the beast within is us. Then we are able to recognise that we left our first love and then by Grace we begin produce the fruit of love.

I do not see evil first to be hated and love to be the consequence. I see Love as the CAUSE and the consequence is rejection of evil and separation from darkness.

Of course there is non good but the Father.

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
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Gregor

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Re: Vengance is mine saith the Lord?
« Reply #23 on: September 26, 2007, 06:40:53 PM »

Greetings Sonofone,
Hebrews tells us that without faith it is impossible to please God. We are also told that faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. If you look at the situation with Adam, he failed because he chose to heed the voice of his wife (no faith), rather than to heed the voice of God. Jesus, on the otherhand, in every temptation by satan in the wilderness, used the word of God, ("it is written"), as his defense and was victorious. I hope this will give you something to meditate on.
G.
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sonofone

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Re: Vengance is mine saith the Lord?
« Reply #24 on: September 26, 2007, 06:49:47 PM »

It seems that the last exchange between Arcturus and Gregor were the exact same conclusion with exception to the relationship to evil. When we see ourselves or our beast within don't we hate it as opposed to love it? isn't this what makes us want to be changed? Paul said oh wretched man that I am. You need to have the balance you can't have one without the other. But you guys need a new post or try pm'ing each other. Gregor I saw your response to my post and don't know what to think of it? I see it understand it do not disagree with it but I fail to see how it changes anything that I have said?
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Gregor

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Re: Vengance is mine saith the Lord?
« Reply #25 on: September 26, 2007, 07:08:13 PM »

Greetings Arcturus,

I actually modified my post slightly, but in any case, I think that man must first see the reality of death, and our need for God before we can truly learn to love and obey God. This is perhaps why it is so hard for the rich to enter the kingdom of God, they "think" they have no need. In my case, I truly had to hit "rock bottem" in life, before I was willing to look upward for help. When there was no further for me to fall, other than death, I was able to recognize my total need for God. Now, as I'm growing, I realize that my focus has changed.

Heb.6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God...

This is how God intends to bring us to his light, by the very fact that he created evil and exposed the sin. Just like in Gen.1, there was first darkness over the face of the deep, before God said, "let there be light" and saw that it was good. The repentance from "dead works" must first be in our foundation before we can move on. Ultimately, it is the spirit who draws us, by whatever means necessary, and may differ from one person to another. So I'll leave it at that and agree with you when you said, "I do not believe there is any major differences between what we have been brought to understand by the Spirit. We can fine tune our WORDS and correct our perceptions to make for purer understanding. I believe this is where the benifit of fellowship is present and constructive." I look forward to that "purer" understanding to come.
All the best in Christ,
G.
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Gregor

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Re: Vengance is mine saith the Lord?
« Reply #26 on: September 26, 2007, 07:38:51 PM »

Greetings Sonofone,
I think in your last post, you did hit the nail on the head: "You need to have the balance you can't have one without the other." I agree. NKJV Gen.1:5 "God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. *So the evening and the morning were the first day." In the center margin of my bible there is a footnote stating that the Literal translation reads like this: *And evening was, and morning was, a day, one. This speaks to me that both are in balance - one. I'm sorry if I'm distracting from your questions, but maybe the answer to the Vengence is mine saith the lord?? question is related to how we perceive our relationship with anger. I will read up some more on "vengence" but believe that when God says vengence he's directing it at the sin, not the sinner. Just as it says in Eph 6:10 "to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made know by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places."  Man tends to look at the surface, blame the person, rather than righteous judgement God shows at directing his vengence at the principalities/powers behind our actions. This is why the LOF will destroy the sin, not the sinner. God loves us, but hates the sin. And what is sin, but Rom14:23 "But he who doubts (Adam/us) is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin." Hope this helps.
G.
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sonofone

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Re: Vengance is mine saith the Lord?
« Reply #27 on: September 26, 2007, 07:44:52 PM »

I think it becomes difficult to separate the sin from the sinner even dicier than splitting hairs. If I sin I will be judged I am not going to get to sit back and watch my sin get judged by the fire I will be judged in and by the fire.
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Gregor

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Re: Vengance is mine saith the Lord?
« Reply #28 on: September 26, 2007, 08:00:56 PM »

I think it becomes difficult to separate the sin from the sinner even dicier than splitting hairs. If I sin I will be judged I am not going to get to sit back and watch my sin get judged by the fire I will be judged in and by the fire.

yes, you're right. This is why only God can do the judging, not man. But God disciplines (chastises) those he loves, and as Ray explains, those who aren't chastised would be considered ******** (without a father).

I looked up the Greek word for vengence. It is made up of different root words, but the primary root word meaning is "to show" Other meanings include punishment/retribution etc. but ultimately God will vindicate himself, show us that his word is true. Man volunteers to sin. See the last couple posts in "Circumcision - ouch!" thread. Kat put an email in there from Ray, which I think supports what I'm saying. I encourage you to keep seeking, knocking, asking, as the answers will come. Really ask God, "what are you trying to show me?" When he sheds his light on your understanding, you will know it!
All the best,
G.
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Vengance is mine saith the Lord?
« Reply #29 on: September 26, 2007, 08:13:43 PM »


It is of utmost importance to realise that Adam chose freely to sin whether God intended this or not he chose to sin and he could have chose differently.The choice was his. Think about it the serpent tempted him just as he did Jesus Neither Adam or Jesus was deceived by the serpent.
 

Hi sonophone,

Where is it written that the serpent tempted Adam?

This is new to me.

His Peace to you,

Joe
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sonofone

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Re: Vengance is mine saith the Lord?
« Reply #30 on: September 26, 2007, 08:39:06 PM »

The bible says that after Eve was tempted of the serpent that she did eat and gave to her husband with her and he did eat. It suggest to me that he was there with her the whole time. Thats where It says it Gen 3vs 6.Are we to assume that Adam was off somewhere else when this was happening?Even if he was not there if we have to make that assumption did Eve just walk up to him and say here Adam have some fruit? Adam was not deceived by the serpent,Eve sinned because she was deceived by the serpent as the bible states Ist Timothy 2vs 14 And Adam was not deceived,but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. nor was Jesus deceived by the serpent one obeyed God the other disobeyed Romans 5vs 19 For as by one mans disobedience many were made sinners so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
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Gregor

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Re: Vengance is mine saith the Lord?
« Reply #31 on: September 26, 2007, 09:04:58 PM »

Greetings Sonofone,
May I suggest going back and reading the thread "Eve deceived"? I think the last post on page 1 by Joe really has some truth to it and answers your question here, and the one posed by you on that thread. We touched on equal liberty, but that liberty was still subject to the truth, the word of God, (Faith). I think it's awesome how these threads tie together.
Your Brother in Christ,
Greg
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Vengance is mine saith the Lord?
« Reply #32 on: September 26, 2007, 09:13:11 PM »

The bible says that after Eve was tempted of the serpent that she did eat and gave to her husband with her and he did eat. It suggest to me that he was there with her the whole time. Thats where It says it Gen 3vs 6.Are we to assume that Adam was off somewhere else when this was happening?Even if he was not there if we have to make that assumption did Eve just walk up to him and say here Adam have some fruit? Adam was not deceived by the serpent,Eve sinned because she was deceived by the serpent as the bible states Ist Timothy 2vs 14 And Adam was not deceived,but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. nor was Jesus deceived by the serpent one obeyed God the other disobeyed Romans 5vs 19 For as by one mans disobedience many were made sinners so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Hello again sonophone,

A lot of assumptions there my friend. So you are assuming that Adam was right there, not deceived and just stood by as Eve disobeyed God?
 
You still did not give chapter and verse for your statement that Adam was tempted by the serpent.

What would you do if a con man approached you and your wife and you recognized the scam while she thought it was the deal of a lifetime, would you just stand there watch her count the money and hand it over to him?

We went over this in the previous thread about Adam and Eve, God created Adam and knew him better than Adam knew himself. Are you assuming God just stood by scratching His beard as He breathlessly awaited Adam's free will decision? Have you considered that the intense desire Adam had for Eve was put there by God? That this was the actual cause for Adam's disobedience? His love/lust for Eve and his desire to be with her "damn the torpedoes" was caused by God, Adam embraced this decision in his heart but he was bound to do what he did because of the weakness of His flesh, God created him that way. But Adam still wanted to remain with Eve, that was his sin choosing Eve over God's Word. He could not help himself and he did not have faith in God to help either.

Adam's heart was in his decision but the pull of the (God created) flesh is what inspired it.


Isa 64:8  But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

Adam had as much "free will" as the clay he was formed from.

Jer 10:23  O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.
 
Jer 10:24  O LORD, correct me, but with judgment; not in thine anger, lest thou bring me to nothing.

His Peace to you,

Joe
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Vengance is mine saith the Lord?
« Reply #33 on: September 26, 2007, 09:14:41 PM »

Greetings Sonofone,
May I suggest going back and reading the thread "Eve deceived"? I think the last post on page 1 by Joe really has some truth to it and answers your question here, and the one posed by you on that thread. We touched on equal liberty, but that liberty was still subject to the truth, the word of God, (Faith). I think it's awesome how these threads tie together.
Your Brother in Christ,
Greg

Thanks Gregor,

I was typing the above response as you were posting.  ;)

Peace,

Joe
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sonofone

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Re: Vengance is mine saith the Lord?
« Reply #34 on: September 26, 2007, 09:25:46 PM »

With all due respect Joe you say I make a lot of assumptions but then everything you say is an assumption as well? I did give chapter and verse for everything I said The scripture says that Adam was with her. And as I stated even if I say that he was not there as the scripture says he was. What explanation did Eve give Adam to take of the fruit? Would you suggest to me that Adam knew nothing of this temptation of Eve.He just blindly took of the fruit.And unto Adam he said because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife and hast eaten of the tree.She didn't simply hand it to him.
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Kat

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Re: Vengance is mine saith the Lord?
« Reply #35 on: September 26, 2007, 10:35:45 PM »


Here is a section of Ray's paper on 'The Myth of Free-Will Exposed' part A.  Maybe this will shed a little light on this subject.

http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html ----------------------------------------------

WHAT CAUSED EVE TO SIN WILLINGLY?

Did Eve herself think that she "freely" willed to sin WITHOUT A CAUSE?

"And the Lord God said unto the woman, What is this that you have done? And the woman said [Yes, just what did ‘the woman say?’ Did she say that she "freely willed" to commit this sin? Did she say it was her and all her and nothing but her that did this? Or did she say…], The SERPENT BEGUILED ME… [and BECAUSE the serpent beguiled or deceived her, we now have a CAUSE], and I did eat" (Gen. 3:13).

And what did God have to save about all this blame casting on Eve’s part? Did God say something like this:

"Oh really, Eve? Yah right, go ahead, try and blame it on THE SERPENT! No, Eve, you ‘FREELY’ willed by your own ‘FREE MORAL AGENCY’ which I gave to you and which is free from ALL CAUSALITY AND BLAME CASTING, to do this thing ON YOUR OWN."

Is that what God said? Let’s read it:

"And the Lord God said unto the serpent, because YOU HAVE DONE THIS, you are cursed above all cattle…" (Verse 14).

There it is. God’s Own answer. But will we accept God’s answer? For most, probably not.

God plainly said that it was the serpent who "has done this." Eve said it was the serpent that deceived her and God Himself also conceded that it was the serpent that "HAS DONE THIS." That was the CAUSE, and that was the reason for the serpent’s punishment.

WHAT CAUSED ADAM TO SIN WILLINGLY?

How about Adam? Does he fair any better than his wife? Did Adam eat the forbidden fruit and sin by his OWN ‘FREE’ WILL? Or do the Scriptures tell us that he too was CAUSED to have his will do what he did?

"And the man said, THE WOMAN whom You gave to be with me, SHE GAVE ME OF THE TREE, and I did eat" (Ver. 12).

And again, did God say something like" "Oh sure, Adam, blame it on your WIFE! You know that you ‘freely’ without any outside cause whatsoever, decided on your own to eat the fruit." Is that what God intonated to Adam? Let’s read it:

"And unto Adam He said, Because [‘because’—here is the real CAUSE] YOU HAVE HEARKENED UNTO THE VOICE OF YOUR WIFE, and have eaten of the tree …" (Ver. 17).

Does anyone see here where God says, "Because you have hearkened unto the voice of our OWN ‘FREE’ WILL, and have eaten of the true…?" Well? No, before Adam "willed" (and NOT FREELY), but willed to eat of this fruit, his heart was influenced to do something that it already had all the potential in the world of doing. Namely, disobeying His God and Maker. And what was that? HIS WIFE’S VOICE. And at THAT point in the process, Adam began to "will" this act, and his mind formulated the actual physical action of doing the eating.

You see, Adam was willing to die for his new bride, just as Jesus was willing to die for His bride, the church.

God doesn’t even hint that Adam did what he did "freely." God Himself admits that the CAUSE was "the VOICE OF YOUR WIFE."

I have said and taught for decades now that God never FORCED anyone to sin or go against whatever their will is at the precise time that his will is changed by a cause. Men volunteer to sin. They don’t need to be "forced"—they are SINNING MACHINES! Most men (not all) can be made to sin at the drop of a photograph. (That is, if the photograph is that of a sexy young lady in high heels and a mini-skirt). He doesn’t need to be ‘FORCED’ to lust and sin over the young lady, even though it may not have been his conscious will TO LUST just prior to seeing the sexy photograph.

Who created man with such passions and desires? Dah! Who created Testosterone?

IT ALL STARTS WITH THE HEART

ALL have sinned because it takes SPIRITUAL POWER not to sin. And God did not give our first parents that kind of spiritual power. They were spiritually weak as water.

We read in Jer. 17:9:

"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"

We know from Scripture that God "…creates EVIL…" (Isa. 45:7), but did He also create man’s heart in a "desperately wicked" state? No, He did not. God did not FORCE upon man, at creation, a "desperately WICKED" heart. Let’s read this verse from the Jewish Publication Society,

"The heart is deceitful above all things, And it is EXCEEDING WEAK—who can know it."

God did not create man’s heart "desperately wicked" as the KJV suggest, but rather He did create the human heart, "exceeding WEAK."

The seat of emotions and desires is the HEART. And God made the heart "exceeding WEAK." Man did not sin because he "freely willed" to sin, but because his heart was so exceedingly WEAK. That is why it takes next to nothing to persuade the heart of man to DESIRE SIN.

Jesus Christ Himself taught us that EVIL THOUGHTS, MURDERS, BLASPHEMIES, ADULTERIES, etc., all start, begin, originate, proceed, out from THE HEART.

Once the heart senses a feeling or emotion, it begins to desire something. These very thoughts of desire emanate out from the heart, seeking fulfillment. At this point in the process the will is manifested. It now becomes the driving force within you to accomplish the thoughts and emotions of the heart. The will is not the original instigator in this chain of events; it is not even the second in line, but rather the third.

The will of man has no power until first his heart DESIRES,

Second these desires are formed into actual THOUGHTS,

Then at this third stage the will purposes to find fulfillment for all that is coming out of the heart.

The heart played a huge role in Adam’s decision to also partake of the forbidden fruit. In I Tim. 2:14 we read this:

"And Adam was NOT deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."

Why did Adam sin if he was NOT deceived as his wife was? Again, the answer goes back to THE HEART.

Adam LOVED his wife dearly. He never wanted to be separated from her. But he knew that the wages of eating the forbidden tree was to be death. But did he fully comprehend all that death entailed? Probably not. But whatever the penalty would be or how it would be carried out, Adam knew that he did not want to be separated from his wife. Notice what He said to God:

"And the man said, The woman whom you gave to be WITH ME, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat." (Gen. 3:12).

Isn’t that interesting. Adam did not say: "The woman whom you gave TO ME." Or, "The woman whom you gave FOR ME." But rather, "The woman whom you gave to be WITH ME." Adam reminded God that He created Eve to be ‘WITH’ him, not apart from him. And if Adam had obeyed God, whereas his wife did not, he feared being SEPARATED from Eve. And so he also ate of the fruit and sinned, not because he was deceived as Eve was, but because he loved her in his heart so much that he couldn’t bear the thought of not being "WITH" her.

And so, did Adam "freely" WITHOUT A CAUSE choose to eat the forbidden fruit? What nonsense. Adam had the BIGGEST REASON in the world that CAUSED him to sin and remain with his wife!

So if you are looking for "free" will in the Garden at the time of our first parents' creation, forget it, 'cause it ain’t there!
--------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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sonofone

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Re: Vengance is mine saith the Lord?
« Reply #36 on: September 26, 2007, 10:48:20 PM »

I hear you Kat and out of respect for Ray I will bow out of this discussion. Thanks
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Vengance is mine saith the Lord?
« Reply #37 on: September 26, 2007, 10:55:07 PM »

Hi sonophone,

The scriptures do not say "Adam was with her and was tempted by the serpent" the (KJV) says; she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Could this not also just be saying Adam ate with her together, eating as she ate? You yourself said it "suggested to you" they were together through the whole process.

Not all translations phrase it quite this way;


Gen 3:6And when the woman saw that the tree was good (suitable, pleasant) for food and that it was delightful to look at, and a tree to be desired in order to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate; and she gave some also to her husband, and he ate. (Amplified)

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food and that it was desirable to the eyes and that the tree was pleasant to make one knowing then she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and she gave to her husband also, along with her and he did eat. (Rotherham's)

The only definitive thing here is they ate the fruit together at some point not that they both listened to the serpent's sales pitch.



With all due respect Joe you say I make a lot of assumptions but then everything you say is an assumption as well? Everything I said was an assumption? (Even Isa 64:8, Jer 10:23 & 24?)   

I did give chapter and verse for everything I said (than why did you use the words assume, suggest and assumption?)

The scripture says that Adam was with her. (It says they ate the fruit together, this goes back to my original question to your definitive statement that the serpent tempted Adam, I asked "where is this written?" You answered with supposition.)

 And as I stated even if I say that he was not there as the scripture says he was. What explanation did Eve give Adam to take of the fruit?

Would you suggest to me that Adam knew nothing of this temptation of Eve. (No, he knew exactly what he was doing, he made a reckless decision to be with the woman he desired, he is not the only man who did this in the history of the world, that is for sure!)

He just blindly took of the fruit. (No again, he did it with his eyes wide open, he valued Eve more than he feared God or death at that moment. You know Adam was not deceived by the serpent, he just wanted to remain with Eve, with no regard to the ramifications)

And unto Adam he said because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife and hast eaten of the tree.She didn't simply hand it to him. (Who said "she simply handed it to him," I didn't. Adam recognized the situation for what it was, his wife ate, she was going to die and he was going with her, all she had to say was "here Adam," he would have known she had disobeyed.)
 

Here are your words sonophone,

The bible says that after Eve was tempted of the serpent that she did eat and gave to her husband with her and he did eat. It suggest to me that he was there with her the whole time. Thats where It says it Gen 3vs 6.Are we to assume that Adam was off somewhere else when this was happening?Even if he was not there if we have to make that assumption did Eve just walk up to him and say here Adam have some fruit? Adam was not deceived by the serpent,Eve sinned because she was deceived by the serpent as the bible states Ist Timothy 2vs 14 And Adam was not deceived,but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. nor was Jesus deceived by the serpent one obeyed God the other disobeyed Romans 5vs 19 For as by one mans disobedience many were made sinners so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

You make the assumption Adam resisted the temptation of the serpent, I asked for chapter and verse on that, Adam was not deceived by anyone he took of the fruit because of his love/lust for Eve.

You made another assumption as if it was impossible for Adam and Eve to be in different places in the garden, why is that?

His Peace to you,

Joe


P.S. Sonophone please spend some time reading the articles, there is such a wealth of knowledge to be had, I realize the "free will" concept is difficult at first but you will see that God being in control of everything is core to His plan and purpose for mankind.


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sonofone

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Re: Vengance is mine saith the Lord?
« Reply #38 on: September 27, 2007, 10:26:01 AM »

Joe as I said when Kat posted I hear you and have decided to let this post end on my behalf. I fully stand by all that I have written and that's enough. In the end we believe what we want or must. I guess that's just the way it goes.
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Vengance is mine saith the Lord?
« Reply #39 on: September 27, 2007, 12:52:49 PM »

Hi sonophone,

Agreed!

We can agree to disagree and move on, this subject is not critical to our growth but the way we interact and treat each other most certainly is. From time to time we find the Scriptures do not shed enough light on some details and some topics as we ourselves would prefer them to be, often the various translations can muddy the waters even more so. As Craig mentioned in another thread our primary concern is to become more Christlike and there the Scriptures are quite clear.

Thank you Brother,

Joe
 
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