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Vengance is mine saith the Lord?

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Gregor:

--- Quote from: Arcturus on September 25, 2007, 02:23:57 PM ---For me vengeance is that part of God's judgment that is relative to God's wrath. Those who are experiencing trials and tribulations will not experience God's wrath/LOF/Second death but are being judged now as is the House of God on whom judgment is "now."
It is inaccurate to relate Godly vengeance to the human emotion that manifests anger, hostility, aggression and the damage that results from such human exhibits of retaliation, violence and hate. God IS LOVE. His Judgment results in righteousness. To comprehend this we have to look AWAY from human standards and see that God is Spirit and He is training all humanity into the image of His Son who suffered and died for all of us. That is love. That is not vengeance.
God exercises His Judgment on us and for that moment it is painful but it is fruitful and that is the assurance we have in Christ.
Think of God as Spirit not as human emotions.
Peace be to you
Arcturus :)

--- End quote ---

Greetings,
I guess my comment would be in relation to Eph. 4:26,27 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:[27] Neither give place to the devil.
Rev.26 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
Prov.8:13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.
Anger (wrath) is an emotion (not a sin) and it serves a purpose, (vs.27) to protect from the devil (not eachother). Even Jesus got angry and drove out the moneylenders from the temple. I believe the real reason He did that was to make the point that it is in our hearts (the true temple) that we need to get angry and drive out the lusts of the flesh (greed, selfishness, etc. that which is not love). Human emotions are different from human lusts. God can have emotions such as anger, pleasure, greif, joy, but unlike humans, He isn't ruled by them, causing Him to replace His very character of LOVE. Emotions come and go, but the Truth is our sure foundation.
G.

Deborah-Leigh:
Greetings,
I guess my comment would be in relation to Eph. 4:26,27 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:[27] Neither give place to the devil.

Hello Gregor

Here is how I see this. Please note:  The caps that follow DO NOT MEAN or indicate that I am shouting at anyone or at you but are simply used to emphasise what to ME is important and what for me, stands out as key to the words God is speaking in His Scriptures and secondly, how this is understood by and in which emphasis it is understood from where I am standing and viewing this.

So, to respond....I look at who Paul is speaking about when he talks about wrath in this Scripture.  Who's wrath? God's wrath? NO. Be YE (YOU Mankind) angry....(Is this a licence to BE ANGRY? NO! Mankind IS ANGRY. Mankind IS the BEAST. We KNOW that the carnal mind is at deep seated enmity and hatred towards God right? The injunction and Will of God is SIN NOT.) and sin not: let not the sun go down upon YOUR WRATH. (To do so IS TO GIVE PLACE TO THE DEVIL!) Neither give place to the devil.

As in the Myth of Free Will we read that all go against the Will of God but non can thwart HIS Purpose or Plan. This is how I read the Scripture above. God says SIN NOT. Man SINS. God says do not let the sun go down upon your wrath and man does let the sun go down on his wrath that is why there are so many psychological illnesses, regrets, bad memories, fears hurts and mental aberrations today. God says when the devil is the god in the temple of God, that is us, then we worship an idol and place to the devil is given over by God and we consequentally go against God's Will. That is God's plan. Gods Will is that one day we will know that there is no other God beside God and that He is our God and no other.

So for me as I perceive this, the wrath here in the Scripture you present, refers to mans bestial wrath not God's Holy righteous indignation and judgment of man and the beast. Gods wrath and judgement will result in man coming to know, comprehend and understand the ways and purposes of God.

Rev.26 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
Prov.8:13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogance, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.

I see the above as the description of the fruits of the beast.

Anger (wrath) is an emotion (not a sin) and it serves a purpose, (vs.27) to protect from the devil (not eachother).

Human anger does not protect anyone from the devil as I see it. On the contrary, human anger is for me a manifestation of being held captive by the devil!

 Even Jesus got angry

Jesus is God. Humany is not God. What Jesus did He saw His Father doing. Can you honestly say that any human being who has not yet seen Christ face to face, can be doing what the God The Father is doing yet? Only the Babylonians are making claim to such nonsense saying they do the works of Christ through their false teaching and miracle workings wiles and wonders. ;D

and drove out the moneylenders from the temple. I believe the real reason He did that was to make the point that it is in our hearts (the true temple) that we need to get angry and drive out the lusts of the flesh (greed, selfishness, etc. that which is not love).

I see that it is only by Grace that is God's Divine influence on our hearts that this can begin and through the Faith of Christ be completed.
 
Human emotions are different from human lusts. God can have emotions such as anger, pleasure, grief, joy, but unlike humans, He isn't ruled by them, causing Him to replace His very character of LOVE.

Isn't THAT a most wonderful thought. That God CARES! AWESOME POINT!

Emotions come and go, but the Truth is our sure foundation.

Yes and The Truth is one way to life that sets us all free. His Name. Christ Jesus in whom we are being made into His image by God working through His Spirit that is creating us. (Cloning us...as you said you see it, in another thread!)

Peace to you

Arcturus :)

hillsbororiver:

--- Quote from: sonofone on September 25, 2007, 11:46:54 AM ---
I have probably asked about this before in some shape or fashion.


--- End quote ---

As a matter of fact.....  ;D

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5492.msg43981/topicseen.html#msg43981

His Peace and Wisdom to you Brother,

Joe

Gregor:
Greetings,

Psm.97:10 Ye that love the LORD, hate evil: he preserveth the souls of his saints; he delivereth them out of the hand of the wicked.
(This is in reference to the saints, still in human form)

Amos.5:15 Hate the evil, and love the good, and establish judgment in the gate: it may be that the LORD God of hosts will be gracious unto the remnant of Joseph.

Zech.8:17 And let none of you imagine evil in your hearts against his neighbour; and love no false oath: for all these are things that I hate, saith the LORD.

Rev.26 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans(not them personally), which I also hate.

Prov.8:13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogance, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.

I don't see Prov8:13a as the beast. I do see fruits of the beast, but those are the predicate which we are to be hating. We are instructed to fear the Lord, which IS to hate evil. We can only fear the Lord by His spirit, by His grace, His revelation. Our carnal mind cannot know God.

I would suggest that "human anger" would be directed at people and therefore would be a manifestation of being held captive by the devil! Hence we too must learn forgiveness. Righteous indignation is directed at the sin, evil itself, and we are instructed to do that.

"Jesus is God. Humany is not God. What Jesus did He saw His Father doing. Can you honestly say that any human being who has not yet seen Christ face to face, can be doing what the God The Father is doing yet?" 
Yes and No. Humans can sometimes, not 100% of the time (not yet perfect), and not by works of the flesh, but by the indwelling spirit of God. It is by his GRACE that we do receive His spirit. Can you honestly say that if you are walking in the spirit you wont hate sin and still love the sinner? Again, I think that the emotions themselves are good only when they are directed correctly, that is, that they are not directed at the individual, but at the evil/sin itself. How can we be like Jesus, God, if we don't also hate like Him? If we are walking in the spirit, that which grieves God will grieve us, that which God hates we will hate. It would be a contradiction to say that God can be angry, yet we cannot, yet we are to be Christ-like.  I agree 100% that we are not yet perfected, but that doesn't negate the accountibility factor. Until the day after the LOF, where all sin is removed, even God will still hate sin. After such time, there will no longer be the need for hate because there will no longer be a predicate for it, and at such time all will become "ONE".

I hope you don't feel that I am in any way attacking you personally, I am simpley seeking truth and enjoying this discussion. I am in no way offended by your point of view, nor take anything you say as a personal attack, so carry on. I am open to correction, and pray that God will open my eyes to the truth.  ;D

Your Brother in Christ,
Greg

Kat:

It seems to me that our emotions are just another aspect of our personality that God uses to carry out his plan and purpose for our lives.

And as usual here is an email.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2120.0.html -------

Dear Sebby:
The mere fact that you at least in part understand that all is of God and that no one cane thwart His plan or purpose or intention, shows that God is already working with you. God will be working with you long before you fully realize that it is happening. We play a huge role in God's plan. It is through US that God is accomplishing His plan and purpose. We make millions of choices and decisions along the way.  We have emotions which play a huge part as well. Our emotions are the driving force behind our choices.  We may think it all takes place in our head and in our mind and in our brain, but that part of the brain known as the heart, the seat of emotions plays a huge part.  People don't marry who they marry because it just makes "good sense," or is "practical," or "financially" a wise decision. We marry who we marry because the emotions of our heart MAKE US WANT TO MARRY THEM.  We do this not realizing that God is the only Match-Maker in the universe. God pre-arranges all marriages--both the good ones and the bad ones.  But I don't have the time to write a book on this subject right now. God will just have to reveal these truths to you over time.

God be with you,
Ray

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