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[Deborah-Leigh]

Contradiction
« on: Yesterday at 04:12:36 PM » 

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    L. Ray Smith,
     
    You say in your newest article, “God forces no one to do His will”. I find this contradicts Scripture as well as your own writings.
     
    You write in the Myth of Free Will (part A):
     
    “The disciples all said that they would remain loyal. But Jesus said that they would all be offended because of Him. Was there a reason for God causing the disciples to will loyalty to Jesus and then in the same night to will to deny Jesus? Does God do anything in vain without a reason? This was all part of their conversion process. God totally humiliated them by proving to them that their own will was not free to do what they wanted, but that
    "…it is God [not man] which works in you BOTH TO WILL [God causes us ‘to will’] and TO DO [God causes us ‘to do’] of His good pleasure" to bring about His intentions (Phil. 2:13).”
     
    Here is another good example:
     
    “Now we are aware that God is working all together for the good of those who are loving God, who are called according to the purpose’ that, whom He foreknew, He designates beforehand, also, to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be Firstborn among many brethren.’ Now whom He designates beforehand, these He calls also, and whom He calls, these He justifies also; now whom He justifies, these He glorifies also.’” (Romans 8:29-30)
     
    God is clearly in charge of every step of someone coming to Christ, enduring with Christ, and overcoming with Christ. Even if a man were to deny God after his calling, that would not be out of God’s Will.
    “Former of light and Creator of darkness, Maker of good and Creator of evil. I, Yahweh Elohim, made all of these things.” (Isaiah 45:7)
     
    I was looking up the definition of "force" and it has a quality of trying to influence someone or some thing to do something, not always with the results hoped for.  So if you're using it in this sense, then perhaps this statement makes more sense (with more clarifying), seeing that God doesn't need to "force" us to do anything.  However, if you're using it in the sense of "we're not robots", then I feel there is error.  If I am wrong in my reading of the Scriptures, I hope God will have me come to see my error.
     
    ~Nicholas
     

    Dear Nicholas:  I am afraid you have done what hundreds before you have done, and that is to mis-quote my statements or take something out of context.  You suggest that what I said and meant in the quotation above attributed to me is that God does not "force" anyone to do His will. You then define "force" as any "a quality of trying to influence."   That is not the main definition of "force" with regards to persuading others that my dictionaries present.  Here is how force is used in respect to trying to cause others to do what we want:  "force, the use of physical power OR VIOLENCE to COMPEL or restrain."
     
    That's a far cry from your definition of "a quality of trying to influence." From what dictionary did you find that definition? I don't think that my American Heritage College Dictionary could be that far off!  Here's Webster's:  "to achieve or win by strength in struggle or VIOLENCE." I believe my use of the word "force" is accurate, regardless of what some alternate definition of this word might suggest.
     
    Notice carefully what I said that you did NOT quote:
     
    "Some erroneously believe that if God were Sovereign and man had no free will, then God would force us to live righteously and godly; He would force us to love Him; He would FORCE US AGAINST OUR WILL to do His will; and such utter nonsense. God forces no one to do His will. Which of the apostles was forced to do the will of God against his will? The unscriptural arguments against the Sovereignty are but smoke and mirrors of the theologians.'
     
    Notice: "He would FORCE US AGAINST OUR WILL to do His will."  Why did you not include that most revealing statement of mine found in the very same paragraph?  I believe that God "inspires" me to write the things that I do for bible-truths.com. I do NOT, however, believe that God "FORCES ME AGAINST MY WILL" to write the things that I do. Sorry if you cannot see this distinction.
     
    My statements are clear and Scriptural. Hope this helps your understanding.
    God be with you,
    Ray

This latest email responce from Ray probed my understanding and produced a wonderful realization.

We know that the stated will of Peter was to even die if necessary with Jesus. When the chips were down, he denied even knowing Jesus. Why? Because God changed the circumstances surrounding Peter. Did this require force on Gods part. No.  Was Peter FORCED by God to deny Jesus? NO! His circumstances simply showed that human will is no means by which we can follow Jesus.

We know that Peter believed emphatically that he would follow Jesus to death if necessary.  God simply changed the circumstances and Peter responded out of his own heart condition, fears and weakness of heart that proved that Peter was not able to follow Jesus to death. Only after the Spirit of Christ strengthend him and became his strength did Peter become converted and enabled to follow Christ. That took the POWER of God not FORCE.Some can easily slip into the deception that the power of God is force.

It is all very well being bold in a comfort zone but in front of the firing squad that is where we reveal our real heart condition. God tests us. He does not force us. God's Power is not force it is Divine influence on our hearts by Grace....

Peace be to you

Arcturus

[Craig]

Good observation. 

There is no doubt in my mind that if the same circumstances would have happened to Peter later in life he would have had a different answer.

Craig

[Deborah-Leigh]

Amen to that Craig!

[YellowStone]

Hi Arcturus

I am responding to what you wrote on the basis of clariification for others who are new.

This latest email responce from Ray probed my understanding and produced a wonderful realization.

We know that the stated will of Peter was to even die if necessary with Jesus. When the chips were down, he denied even knowing Jesus. Why? Because God changed the circumstances surrounding Peter. Did this require force on Gods part. No.  Was Peter FORCED by God to deny Jesus? NO! His circumstances simply showed that human will is no means by which we can follow Jesus.

We know that Peter believed emphatically that he would follow Jesus to death if necessary.  God simply changed the circumstances and Peter responded out of his own heart condition, fears and weakness of heart that proved that Peter was not able to follow Jesus to death. Only after the Spirit of Christ strengthend him and became his strength did Peter become converted and enabled to follow Christ. That took the POWER of God not FORCE.Some can easily slip into the deception that the power of God is force.

It is all very well being bold in a comfort zone but in front of the firing squad that is where we reveal our real heart condition. God tests us. He does not force us. God's Power is not force it is Divine influence on our hearts by Grace....

Peace be to you

Arcturus

God did not change necessarily the circumstances that Peter faced in order for Peter to fall short of his bold claims. God simply knew that Peter was not Spiritually strong enough to stand firm when the time came that he should. I believe this is what you meant.

Certainly, Peter could not have known the fear of death prior to that night and God knew that. Just like He knows what each and everyone of us will do at any given time in any situation.

I posted this, because I do not believe that God changes plans on the fly; rather that He has had everything planned to the tiniest detail before the advent of time.

If I am mistaken, then please correct me. 

Love in Christ our Saviour,
Darren

[Gregor]

God did not change necessarily the circumstances that Peter faced in order for Peter to fall short of his bold claims. God simply knew that Peter was not Spiritually strong enough to stand firm when the time came that he should. I believe this is what you meant.

Certainly, Peter could not have known the fear of death prior to that night and God knew that.

Greetings Darren,

I agree that God did have all this planned out. It is a fulfillment of scriptures:

Matt.26:31 Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.

Mark.14:27 And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered.

John.16:32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.

But this one I THINK applies specifically to Peter:

Luke.1:51 He hath shewed strength with his arm; he hath scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.

I think Peter was a pretty brave and proud guy. He was a fisherman. He must have faced death before at sea. He was the one to volunteer to walk to Jesus on the water. He was quick to draw the sword in Jesus' defense in the garden. I think God wanted to prune the pride out of him. Any thoughts???
G.

[Deborah-Leigh]

Darren

From the Myth of Free Will Ray shows WHO changes circumstances to "to prune the pride out" as Gregor observes which is part of Gods process, Love, Grace, Wisdom and Power. Of course God does not change circumstances on the whim of the moment. God knows the beginning from the end. God is Sovereign.
 
http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html
And for all who do have confidence in the Scriptures, let me say equally dogmatically that there is absolutely no Scriptural proof for man having a "free will" or the ability to make "uncaused choices." In every case Scripture shows that it is God Who is behind the scene of all circumstances that influence and cause a man to make the one and only choice possible under any given circumstance. This law of "cause and effect" is stated and demonstrated time and again in Scripture. Ignorance of these behind the scenes causes does not disprove the fact that they are the actual and literal cause of our choices
^
^
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^What are these two factors over which man has absolutely no control whatsoever?
1. Factor number one--CIRCUMSTANCES: What did the Holy Spirit of God inspire (cause?) James to explain as a major factor in what determines the true outcome of man’s will? Answer: "Whereas you know not what shall be on the morrow."
God changes the minds and wills of mankind around the world, a billion times a minute, through circumstances that "you know not" are actually the cause of your choices and your changed choices. We are often if not most of the time completely unaware of what actually caused us to do or say or think as we do.

^
^
^
How did all the disciples will to remain loyal to Jesus no matter what, at one moment in time, and in the next moment in time, they all changed their will to forsake Him? What changed their wills? Circumstances. One moment they were at ease and safe in the upper room, and at a later moment they were in the garden surrounded by Roman Soldiers! Fear was the circumstance that caused their (un-free) wills to change.
So it was the presence of certain circumstances that caused the disciples to will as they did. But what caused the circumstances to be as they were to ensure that they would will appropriately to fulfill Christ’s prophecy concerning their denying and forsaking Him?
2. Factor number two—GOD’S WILL: Notice the second thing that the Holy Spirit inspired James to write regarding what will or will not happen on any given day to any given person. "…if the Lord will…"
Who was in charge of all these circumstances, which caused the disciples to change their wills? Why God, of course. They did not want to change their wills. They did not desire to deny their Lord and Saviour. They did not wish to make liars and fools of themselves. They did not want to be shown that they were all cowards. Well then, why did they change their wills if they did not wish to change their wills? Were they free to not change their wills? No, they were not free.
The fear inside of them caused and made (and yes, FORCED, if you will) them to change their will. And Jesus Himself told them that they would change their wills, so how pray tell could it have been otherwise? Yet I suppose that some are so spiritually stubborn that they will still insist that the apostles did not need to change their wills, that their wills were yet free to stay loyal in the face of these fearful circumstances.

We know that God drags us to Christ. This is not against our will but against our foolishness, preference for what we think and believe and not against our will. We do not have free will. We have much ignorance, pride and we lean on our own understanding and against the carnal mind that is set in deep hatred for God, God works His miracles of conforming us into the image of His Son. That takes the Power and Love of our One True God.

Peace to you

Arcturus

[YellowStone]

Hi Arcturus,

Thanks for posting what Ray has said on this very subject. I find that I am in full agreement with what Ray has written.

While I do not for a moment refute the fact that God could have changed Peters will or belief in himself to stand when to going got tough; this notion does have it's flaws.

If God had to change Peters will, then is it not safe to asume that Peters will was not what God wanted? Why wasn't it. Did Peter somehow override Gods plan and God had to intervene? I think not.

Rather, God being the master and Soveriegn designer that He is, would never need to do such a thing. God knew exactly how Peter would react as did Christ, because they KNEW in advance the circumstances that were to come and They knew, that despite all of Peters brash claims to the contrary, he would falter. They did not need to force, influence or even suggest it. Peter, simply wasn't ready to do anything but run. Just as Christ said he would.

I think this fits better with our All Knowing God. He knows each and everyone of us way better than we even know oursleves. Every truth that we learn is a gift from God, according to his time and not anything we can do. For even when we pray, we should always asking according to His will, for it to be so.

Love to you in Christ,

Darren

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hello Darren

You observe : Peter, simply wasn't ready to do anything but run. Just as Christ said he would.

That is so true as I see it. Peter had still to learn that God was is and will ever be Sovereign. His experience of betraying Jesus left him crying bitterly. This was Gods gift to him to realise that he is mortal, impotent to achieve anything good of himself or of his will power.

Just as Jesus, though not wanting to take the cup and expressing His awareness of what it meant, WAS equipped and able to take it nevertheless because God His Father made Him able to obey and not sin against Heaven or Earth.

It is these lessons that we have to experience in our lives as we are made into the Image of Christ. Bitter, hard but resulting in much higher standards of truth and excellence in virtue than the carnal mind can comprehend or imagine.

peace to you

Arcturus

[cjwood]

well done arcturus. love the way His words flowed through your post. i heard them in my spirit.  i thank God for ray and all of you who follow these deeper things of God and study the Scriptures.

claudia
ps
please pray for God to give me understanding in my life because my husband has been talking about possible counseling, and that he still cares very much for me and that he wants to talk when he gets back in from nigeria next week.  i mean i have moved all of his things into the garage except for the things in his bedroom and that was alot of stuff...i even went to a divorce workshop for 4 hrs on my b'day 9/8/07.  he called me while i was getting ready to go to the workshop.  he timed it knowing he would reach me before i left the house.  there is a 6 hr time difference. anyway. i am confused now and have been crying out to God to show me what His will for me is.  i know in order to even consider staying together would mean gehenna fire of trust issues since my husband had the webcam affair. 

anyway, way off the subject now, but cheers arcturus.  thank you for your heart.

claudia

[Kat]

Hi Arcturus,

Good subject to consider.  God is the force at work in this world. 

Eph 1:11  in whom also we have been chosen to an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His own will,

To me God is like a invisible conductor, orchestrating His great plan for this creation.  Nothing is out of tune with what He wants it to be.  He does not need to force anybody to do certain things, because He controls all the elements that are operating around everybody and everything.  It is all of God.  That we even exist is a hard thing to comtemplate. 

I like this analogy that Ray used to explain God.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3720.0.html ----------

So let’s think about this a little bit, who is the Father?  In Him we live and breath and have our being.  Liken the ocean to the Spirit of God, and liken us to the fish.  The fish are 95% water, the ocean is in the fish, and the fish are in the ocean, get it.
A bird has very porous bones, because they have to be very light.  It flies in the heavens, it breaths fast, because it needs strength and oxygen.  So the air (which is like the Spirit of God, which is what he calls it in the NT, Greek word for spirit is pheuma), the expanse is even called heaven, where the bird flies, and liken the air to the Spirit of God.  The bird has air in him and is flying through the air.
v
v
That’s why I gave you these scripture “all is out of God.”  God is spirit, God is invisible. Scripture say all that can be seen, was made from things that are not seen.  They didn’t come out of nothing, they came out of what is not seen.  Who is not seen?  God is not seen! 
v
v
God is here, not here because we are here, but He was here before we got here and He’ll still be after we leave.  Because this desk is here and this desk has it cohesion in Jesus Christ.  It is through Jesus Christ that this desk holds together or it would fall apart.  It takes energy and power, what is the source of the power, Jesus Christ, which comes from the Father and it’s passed off out of Him.  One Father, one God, all and everything is out of Him.  GOD IS ALMIGHTY!
--------------------------------------------------

Just thought I would add this to your discussion 

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hello Kat

He controls all the elements that are operating around everybody and everything.

All the elements would include ALL things that God is working together including the circumstances that we navigate through in our daily lives. Rather like the fish in the ocean. It would include people who can influence our inner emotions and ruffle our feathers. It would include our feelings also that often (before we receive the Spirit of Christ )drive our decisions.

It really is quite astounding to contemplate that even people who are in opposition to us, are being controlled by Christ. For me THAT is a most humbling thought! He is controlling us to and is leading us not into temptation but is delivering us from evil as we encounter all levels of evil and experience all types of pain as we learn that God is Sovereign and as you observe for us Kat, all is of God.

Thank you for your contribution and sharing how you perceive these precious truths Kat.

Claudia

I know that there is no random occurrence testing you and your husband. Betrayal is extremely painful! Broken trust can only be mended with forgiveness holding no grudges or threats of retaliation or hardness of heart. I believe that just as understanding comes only from the Spirit of Christ, so to does forgiveness.  If you have forgiven your husband that is well and good. I did the same thing for my late husband but the circumstances that caused me to finally separate from him was that his adultery turned into physical abuse. I suffered terribly from both circumstances. With the Grace of God on my heart, I forgave him and held no grudges towards him and then he was killed in a tragic accident. That too was a circumstance wherein I was lead on a path of deep personal loss and suffering into a much healthier understanding of what a Godly relationship is all about. God pruned much off me during those trials and more than I perhaps even today am aware of having had the need of God to cleanse me from.

I pray for Godly Wisdom to steer you and your husband through your circumstances and trials. May His Will be done.  I pray He gives to you both His strength and peace to endure the trial that is testing and refining you both.

Peace to you

Arcturus