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Force
Deborah-Leigh:
Darren
From the Myth of Free Will Ray shows WHO changes circumstances to "to prune the pride out" as Gregor observes which is part of Gods process, Love, Grace, Wisdom and Power. Of course God does not change circumstances on the whim of the moment. God knows the beginning from the end. God is Sovereign.
http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html
And for all who do have confidence in the Scriptures, let me say equally dogmatically that there is absolutely no Scriptural proof for man having a "free will" or the ability to make "uncaused choices." In every case Scripture shows that it is God Who is behind the scene of all circumstances that influence and cause a man to make the one and only choice possible under any given circumstance. This law of "cause and effect" is stated and demonstrated time and again in Scripture. Ignorance of these behind the scenes causes does not disprove the fact that they are the actual and literal cause of our choices
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^What are these two factors over which man has absolutely no control whatsoever?
1. Factor number one--CIRCUMSTANCES: What did the Holy Spirit of God inspire (cause?) James to explain as a major factor in what determines the true outcome of man’s will? Answer: "Whereas you know not what shall be on the morrow."
God changes the minds and wills of mankind around the world, a billion times a minute, through circumstances that "you know not" are actually the cause of your choices and your changed choices. We are often if not most of the time completely unaware of what actually caused us to do or say or think as we do.
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How did all the disciples will to remain loyal to Jesus no matter what, at one moment in time, and in the next moment in time, they all changed their will to forsake Him? What changed their wills? Circumstances. One moment they were at ease and safe in the upper room, and at a later moment they were in the garden surrounded by Roman Soldiers! Fear was the circumstance that caused their (un-free) wills to change.
So it was the presence of certain circumstances that caused the disciples to will as they did. But what caused the circumstances to be as they were to ensure that they would will appropriately to fulfill Christ’s prophecy concerning their denying and forsaking Him?
2. Factor number two—GOD’S WILL: Notice the second thing that the Holy Spirit inspired James to write regarding what will or will not happen on any given day to any given person. "…if the Lord will…"
Who was in charge of all these circumstances, which caused the disciples to change their wills? Why God, of course. They did not want to change their wills. They did not desire to deny their Lord and Saviour. They did not wish to make liars and fools of themselves. They did not want to be shown that they were all cowards. Well then, why did they change their wills if they did not wish to change their wills? Were they free to not change their wills? No, they were not free.
The fear inside of them caused and made (and yes, FORCED, if you will) them to change their will. And Jesus Himself told them that they would change their wills, so how pray tell could it have been otherwise? Yet I suppose that some are so spiritually stubborn that they will still insist that the apostles did not need to change their wills, that their wills were yet free to stay loyal in the face of these fearful circumstances.
We know that God drags us to Christ. This is not against our will but against our foolishness, preference for what we think and believe and not against our will. We do not have free will. We have much ignorance, pride and we lean on our own understanding and against the carnal mind that is set in deep hatred for God, God works His miracles of conforming us into the image of His Son. That takes the Power and Love of our One True God.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
YellowStone:
Hi Arcturus,
Thanks for posting what Ray has said on this very subject. I find that I am in full agreement with what Ray has written. :)
While I do not for a moment refute the fact that God could have changed Peters will or belief in himself to stand when to going got tough; this notion does have it's flaws.
If God had to change Peters will, then is it not safe to asume that Peters will was not what God wanted? Why wasn't it. Did Peter somehow override Gods plan and God had to intervene? I think not. :)
Rather, God being the master and Soveriegn designer that He is, would never need to do such a thing. God knew exactly how Peter would react as did Christ, because they KNEW in advance the circumstances that were to come and They knew, that despite all of Peters brash claims to the contrary, he would falter. They did not need to force, influence or even suggest it. Peter, simply wasn't ready to do anything but run. Just as Christ said he would.
I think this fits better with our All Knowing God. He knows each and everyone of us way better than we even know oursleves. Every truth that we learn is a gift from God, according to his time and not anything we can do. For even when we pray, we should always asking according to His will, for it to be so.
Love to you in Christ,
Darren
Deborah-Leigh:
Hello Darren
You observe : Peter, simply wasn't ready to do anything but run. Just as Christ said he would.
That is so true as I see it. Peter had still to learn that God was is and will ever be Sovereign. His experience of betraying Jesus left him crying bitterly. This was Gods gift to him to realise that he is mortal, impotent to achieve anything good of himself or of his will power.
Just as Jesus, though not wanting to take the cup and expressing His awareness of what it meant, WAS equipped and able to take it nevertheless because God His Father made Him able to obey and not sin against Heaven or Earth.
It is these lessons that we have to experience in our lives as we are made into the Image of Christ. Bitter, hard but resulting in much higher standards of truth and excellence in virtue than the carnal mind can comprehend or imagine.
peace to you
Arcturus :)
cjwood:
well done arcturus. love the way His words flowed through your post. i heard them in my spirit. i thank God for ray and all of you who follow these deeper things of God and study the Scriptures.
claudia
ps
please pray for God to give me understanding in my life because my husband has been talking about possible counseling, and that he still cares very much for me and that he wants to talk when he gets back in from nigeria next week. i mean i have moved all of his things into the garage except for the things in his bedroom and that was alot of stuff...i even went to a divorce workshop for 4 hrs on my b'day 9/8/07. he called me while i was getting ready to go to the workshop. he timed it knowing he would reach me before i left the house. there is a 6 hr time difference. anyway. i am confused now and have been crying out to God to show me what His will for me is. i know in order to even consider staying together would mean gehenna fire of trust issues since my husband had the webcam affair.
anyway, way off the subject now, but cheers arcturus. thank you for your heart.
claudia
Kat:
Hi Arcturus,
Good subject to consider. God is the force at work in this world.
Eph 1:11 in whom also we have been chosen to an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His own will,
To me God is like a invisible conductor, orchestrating His great plan for this creation. Nothing is out of tune with what He wants it to be. He does not need to force anybody to do certain things, because He controls all the elements that are operating around everybody and everything. It is all of God. That we even exist is a hard thing to comtemplate.
I like this analogy that Ray used to explain God.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3720.0.html ----------
So let’s think about this a little bit, who is the Father? In Him we live and breath and have our being. Liken the ocean to the Spirit of God, and liken us to the fish. The fish are 95% water, the ocean is in the fish, and the fish are in the ocean, get it.
A bird has very porous bones, because they have to be very light. It flies in the heavens, it breaths fast, because it needs strength and oxygen. So the air (which is like the Spirit of God, which is what he calls it in the NT, Greek word for spirit is pheuma), the expanse is even called heaven, where the bird flies, and liken the air to the Spirit of God. The bird has air in him and is flying through the air.
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That’s why I gave you these scripture “all is out of God.” God is spirit, God is invisible. Scripture say all that can be seen, was made from things that are not seen. They didn’t come out of nothing, they came out of what is not seen. Who is not seen? God is not seen!
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God is here, not here because we are here, but He was here before we got here and He’ll still be after we leave. Because this desk is here and this desk has it cohesion in Jesus Christ. It is through Jesus Christ that this desk holds together or it would fall apart. It takes energy and power, what is the source of the power, Jesus Christ, which comes from the Father and it’s passed off out of Him. One Father, one God, all and everything is out of Him. GOD IS ALMIGHTY!
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Just thought I would add this to your discussion :)
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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