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[lilitalienboi16]

Alright everyone, i caught a glimpse of what ray has to say about the ressurection and all the confusion about is there 2 ressurections, how are we raised etc... Let me shed some light on what i heard.

If memory serves me right, in either the 'How much is all' or the 'biblical dates and chronology' audio's, i believe i heard ray briefly say that something along the lines of 'only the elect are raised spiritual bodies, the rest are raised in physical bodies.'

Now if i heard correctly, which i am open to mis interpreting or hearing, i believe i finaly understand where ray is comeing from on this thinking.

The other night, it just hit me as i was pondering what ray had said, because i have been confused for quiet some time about all this.

Now bare with me as i try and explain where i believe ray has gotten this understanding from. I have very little support for this but i believe ray has much more in his pocket then i can muster up. So here it is.

Paul states this;

Romans 6:5 "For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

We know those that are with Christ are the 'overcomers' those that are called, chosen and faithful to the end.

Revelation 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

So those raised in the likeness of Christ's ressurection are those that are with Him. How was Christ raised? A spiritual body. How do we know? well we know that He appeared in many different forms which would only be possible had He been a spiritual being ABLE TO take any form He pleases, even the one of His body that had been crucified.

We also have this statement;

1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Okay so how do we know that the rest of the world is not raised in spiritual bodies? Well because they did not die in Christ's likeness. We also that;

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

However we know that this is not speaking of phsyical death because;

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

So we know that this death that men must experience is not a physical one, now check this out;

Revelation 20:12 "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

We know that these people are not standing in spiritual bodies BECAUSE they are DEAD and the PHYICALLY DEAD DO NOT STAND. What is this verse saying? They are SPIRITUAL DEAD standing in physical bodies. So how can they be raised in SPIRITUAL BODIES? They can't! Why? Because THE SPIRIT GIVES LIFE! They would be LIVING.

Romans 8:10 "And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness."

Okay i hope that made sence, this was tough to put into words, but i hope that i'm not to far off with what ray has comeing for us. I think God showed me this, and maybe i am wrong, but i thought i would share. Please let me know what you think, and if i am wrong about ray said then please forgive me! I'm not trying to preach or teach anything false, it's just what came to me, so please if i am in error i ask your forgivness and patience.

Edit: The only thing i would say is alittle bit confusing in all this, and it does make sence but it's the verse i quoted above;

1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

We are told the 'it' which is the 'natural body' is raised a spiritual body. So how come the rest of the world is not raised like this, it would seem to be a contradiction. Notice i did say seem. Perhaps this is mistranslated, i have not looked into it, or perhaps it's just that this was speaking of Christ and the elect only? I'm not sure... but either way, i think when ray finaly spills the beans its gonna be some good stuff. Just some food for thought for now. Anyone think they got any ideas on this verse here and how it ties into all this?

God be with you all,

Alex

[hillsbororiver]

You bring up an interesting topic Alex.

I have given thought to this from time to time and have yet to come up with a definitive answer, but I believe that perhaps a clue (type/shadow?) to this may be in the resurrection of those (such as Lazarus) who were raised from the dead during Christ's earthly ministry and also those raised by the apostles.

We know they were not raised in spiritual bodies and we know they were not raised immortal or perfect, they were just not dead anymore. We can safely assume they continued to sin, have trials, problems, tears, even judgment.

There is so much depth to the Scriptures and usually we can find multiple lessons in the verses contained within it. So maybe there is more to be gleened from these resurrections than an awesome display of the power of God grabbing the attention of those who witnessed them.

[Kat]

Hi Alex,

1Co 15:44  It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body.

We can understand who Paul is talking about at the beginning of this chapter.

1Co 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I make known unto you the joyful message, which I myself announced to you, which also ye received, in which also ye stand;
v. 2 Through which also ye are being saved,(Rotherham)

It say brethren and refers to those that are "being saved" or doesn't that mean begotten.

Ray made a statement in a resent email like you were talking about.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5547.0.html

 COMMENT:  Actually I have NEVER written about "the second death" as yet, and I have never said that when someone dies that they, "are no more."  When a person dies they are not conscious, and their body decays, and their spirit returns to God, but there is no consciousness IN THE SPIRIT. It is the spirit that gives LIFE TO THE BODY, and so without a living body, there is no consciousness. Jesus will save them by bringing them back to life through RESURRECTION. The righteous believers will be resurrected with glorified spiritual bodies, and the wicked unbelievers with physical bodies to face Judgment. It is in Judgment that the wicked will be ultimately saved.
------------------------------------------------------

It does make you wonder why God would raise sinful people to glorified spirit bodies, to enter His heaven before they have been purified.
It is now in this physical human form that the elect are being judged and I can see how the process of being conformed to the image of Christ would be some what the some for the rest of humanity.  It is through the sufferings of the flesh that we learn so many lessons.

Interesting topic, just thought I would give a little imput 

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[lilitalienboi16]

Thank you kat and joe, you both make great points.

I'm so glad that i wasn't hearing things when i heard what i thought i heard about the resurection of the wicked and those that are not being saved.

What you posted kat, certainly sheds light on who that verse is reffering to. I really appreciate it, all the pieces are coming together!

I can't wait for ray to talk about this.

Thanks and God bless,

Alex

[Gregor]

Greetings Alex,

So those raised in the likeness of Christ's ressurection are those that are with Him. How was Christ raised? A spiritual body. How do we know? well we know that He appeared in many different forms which would only be possible had He been a spiritual being ABLE TO take any form He pleases, even the one of His body that had been crucified.

I'm not sure I can agree with you here, but I am open to correction. Here's why:

John 20:17 NKJV, "Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.'"

Jesus did many miracles here in the flesh. He "passed" through the masses at the temple when they wanted to either stone him or throw him off a cliff. He walked on water. He broke bread and fish and fed the multitudes. To assume he couldn't walk through a wall may be wrong. I've heard it said that the reason many didn't recognize him after his resurrection was precicely because he was still in his fleshly form (which would look very different after having been beaten, beard ripped out and thorns cramed on his head, etc.) I don't know for sure. But, when I read that Mary wanted to cling to him, (after recognizing his voice) and he told her not to, I ask why? Perhaps because it is a lesson to us not to cling to this world, this flesh, but that we need to realize God is spirit (to which Jesus would later ascend in Acts 1:9), as we will become. I don't know if we'll have a physical tangible body, as the flesh profits nothing. But I do know that we can "feel" pain in a limb that doesn't exist (medical phenomenom called "phantom pain") and that there are lots of things our natural mind has yet to comprehend. As for the dead standing, well they could have been lying and in that verse they are made to stand. Like I said, I don't know foresure, but am just throwing out some questions to further contemplate. I'm not trying to rain on your parade, just trying to promote some deeper thought. Hopefully I'm edifying and not tearing down?? I look forward to the replies.
Love in Christ,
G.

[Kat]

Hi Gregor,

Here are a few email that address the things you referred to.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3213.0.html -------

   Jesus Christ was the Firstfruits of those Who Slept. He became a physical man. He died, and just like all who die, Jesus awaited resurrection. His came sooner than ours. In the resurrection of God's Elect, they are raised with a "spiritual body" (I Cor. 15:43-44). Therefore Jesus was resurrected with a "spiritual body."  He manifested Himself in His physical body so that Thomas would know for sure it was Jesus. He also manifested Himself as the Gardner to Mary. He manifested Himself as yet a different person to the two men walking to Emmaus.  And he manifested Himself as yet another person when He met His disciples on the shore. Jesus will not go through eternity living in a corruptible physical body full of holes. What, pray tell, does it matter WHERE His physical body "went?"  Will it maybe be displayed in a heavenly museum in a jar of formaldehyde?  I don't mean to make light of your question, but I can't help it--it's the way I am when it comes to thing s like this. And my last reader asked me to "go easy" on those who have been lead astray.  What can I say: failed again! But I do hope that what I have said is helpful.
    God be with you,
    Ray


http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,840.0.html ----------------------------

Dear William:
A friend asked me about this just a couple of weeks ago.  The Father resides in "the heavens."  The heavens are a realm, not a geographical location.
 
Jesus did not say "touch me not," as we have proof to the contrary in this very same incident recorded in Matt. 28:9-10:
 
"And as they went to tell His disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail.  And the came and HELD HIM BY THE FEET [clearly they WERE 'touching' Him], and worshipped Him."
 
The first definition of the Greek word 'haptomia' is "to ATTACH oneself." As we clearly see in their "Holding Him by the feet."  Rotherham translates this: "...be not DETAINING me..."  James Moffatt translates it: "Cease CLINING to Me."  The American Standard Version has: "Stop HOLDING ON to Me..."
 
Apparently, Jesus was resurrected just moments before the women arrived at the tomb.  When they finally recognized Him as Lord, they GRABBED HIM and wouldn't let Him go--worshipping (as He was clearly resurrected from the dead, hence, truly, the Son of God).
 
The thing that Jesus told His disciples a couple of days earlier was that He must RETURN to His Father. And the reason was two-fold:  [1]  To receive BACK the glory which He had with His Father from the beginning, and [2] He told them that unless He "went away (to the father) the Comforter would not come to them.
 
Jesus appeared three time to His disciples within the first 12 hours: [1] To the women at the tomb, {2] To the two men traveling on the road to Emaus, and [3] Sunday evening when the disciples (save Thomas) where gathered together behind closed doors. At that very time, Jesus gave his Apostles (not His all of His disciples, but His APOSTLES) the Holy Spirit:
 
"Then the same day at evening being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut...He said unto them Peace be unto you: as My Father has sent Me, even so send I you.  And when He had said this, He breathed OLN THEM, AND SAID UNTO THEM, receive ye the holy spirit..but Thomas was not with them" (John 20:19-24).
 
Talk to you later, Lary,
Ray

[M_Oliver]

I have never been able to spiritualize Ezekiel 37...Maybe now I know why.

Mark

[lilitalienboi16]

Greetings Alex,

So those raised in the likeness of Christ's ressurection are those that are with Him. How was Christ raised? A spiritual body. How do we know? well we know that He appeared in many different forms which would only be possible had He been a spiritual being ABLE TO take any form He pleases, even the one of His body that had been crucified.

I'm not sure I can agree with you here, but I am open to correction. Here's why:

John 20:17 NKJV, "Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.'"

Jesus did many miracles here in the flesh. He "passed" through the masses at the temple when they wanted to either stone him or throw him off a cliff. He walked on water. He broke bread and fish and fed the multitudes. To assume he couldn't walk through a wall may be wrong. I've heard it said that the reason many didn't recognize him after his resurrection was precicely because he was still in his fleshly form (which would look very different after having been beaten, beard ripped out and thorns cramed on his head, etc.) I don't know for sure. But, when I read that Mary wanted to cling to him, (after recognizing his voice) and he told her not to, I ask why? Perhaps because it is a lesson to us not to cling to this world, this flesh, but that we need to realize God is spirit (to which Jesus would later ascend in Acts 1:9), as we will become. I don't know if we'll have a physical tangible body, as the flesh profits nothing. But I do know that we can "feel" pain in a limb that doesn't exist (medical phenomenom called "phantom pain") and that there are lots of things our natural mind has yet to comprehend. As for the dead standing, well they could have been lying and in that verse they are made to stand. Like I said, I don't know foresure, but am just throwing out some questions to further contemplate. I'm not trying to rain on your parade, just trying to promote some deeper thought. Hopefully I'm edifying and not tearing down?? I look forward to the replies.
Love in Christ,
G.

I just typed up this long responce gregor, and then realized that someone else had just gone and quoted what ray said. That works perfectly fine. I used pretty much the same scriptures ray used to show that Christ took on many different forms and not just that He was physicaly resurrected but not recognized because His body was badly mared and decayed.

God be with you,

Alex

[javajoe]

You bring up an interesting topic Alex.

I have given thought to this from time to time and have yet to come up with a definitive answer, but I believe that perhaps a clue (type/shadow?) to this may be in the resurrection of those (such as Lazarus) who were raised from the dead during Christ's earthly ministry and also those raised by the apostles.

We know they were not raised in spiritual bodies and we know they were not raised immortal or perfect, they were just not dead anymore. We can safely assume they continued to sin, have trials, problems, tears, even judgment.

There is so much depth to the Scriptures and usually we can find multiple lessons in the verses contained within it. So maybe there is more to be gleened from these resurrections than an awesome display of the power of God grabbing the attention of those who witnessed them.

Man, all this is fantastic stuff - really deep!  I have never wanted to study scripture so much in my life. Which is why I need to kick back a little and not spend so much time on the forum for now, read scripture, spend more time with God,  and study more of Ray's teachings.  Frankly, I've been really frustrated lately, seems my initial excitement has turned into confusion, so I hope you all don't mind if I step aside a little, and get things clarified with my Lord.

You will hear from me.  Keep me in your prayers!!

ciao!

[hillsbororiver]

Hi javajoe,

We all need to do this from time to time.

I will be here posting and reading at a frenetic pace then just come skidding to a stop feeling the need to contemplate and meditate on the Lord, study His Word and the reread the articles on Bible Truths.

It is true, there is a time and a season.....

His Peace to you Brother,

Joe

[lilitalienboi16]

I have never been able to spiritualize Ezekiel 37...Maybe now I know why.

Mark

Ezekiel 37 is certainly very interesting, there is just to much going on in there that i do not understand unfortunately. I'm sure this is one of passages that ray will touch upon when speaking about the ressurection. Atleast i think, because this does seem to be talking about ressurection of physical bodies.

Well anyway, thanks for that reference.

God bless,

Alex

[indianabob]

Folks,

Lots to consider in the messages presented, especially the quotes from Ray.

I would like to try to sort out what seems evident to me and hope you will bear with me.

First comes the flesh and then the spiritual.

Messiah came in the flesh and lived perfectly and was raised immortal spirit.  He was/is the first.
Since then Jesus is working with all those God has given him to perfect them and prepare them to serve in some capacity as pioneers of the coming righteous Kingdom of God on earth.  These are those called, chosen and elect and not yet perfected, who will be perfected by a miracle at their resurrection to life in spiritual bodies.
In one way of thinking about it we too will die, for an instant, and be re-born as spiritual individuals.

All the rest of humanity, from Adam and Eve till the present and who knows how much longer, will be raised in the Great White Throne judgment of the 'dry bones' of Ezek 37. 

This later resurrection is not due to those folks being worse sinners than are we who have been or may be the 'called, chosen and elect'.  Their fate, to have been left behind and to be destined for the spiritual lake of correcting fire, is God's preordained plan for the great majority of mankind.  It is no insult or slight by God for them to have been left behind.  It is just the way the plan works.  Some had to be pioneers and go ahead in order for the great mass of people to have a 'different way' prepared for them.  Jesus, God's only begotten son had to be the unique, sinless first born, because that was the way God planned it.  We who are not the first born and those who are not the first fruits after Jesus should not feel badly that God arranged a different salvation for them.  I think that it had to be that way to account for all the children who died before they could have understood and been called out.

Another way to think about this plan of God's, if I have any correct thoughts at all, is that God through Jesus is working out a plan in time that allows mankind, ever since Adam, to go his own way and decide for himself what is good and what is evil.  This plan allows mankind to learn from their own mistakes, guided always by God's over arching wise control, THAT they need God and CANNOT do it their way and be successful. Just consider history.

If that makes sense, then I believe that the next step in sequence is that Jesus will return, take his throne in Jerusalem, put down all forceful resistance, set up his righteous government with the elect as administrators/teachers and for some period of time allow human life to continue under his loving leadership to show them/us how wonderful life can be when righteous government is in place.

An illustration one may consider is God's week of six days (6 thousand years) for man to do his own will and then the sabbath day (1000 years) ? of rest when God's government of love is in place.

At some point in the future, I don't know when, the great white throne resurrection will take place.  All those in that resurrection will be raised mortal, flesh and blood, just as they were when they died (it is appointed to all men once to die) EXCEPT they will be raised with whole bodies, completely healed of every injury or disease and continue their lives as fleshly human beings and face the judgment of loving correction.

Then when Jesus has finished his work with these folks, they will be changed, in an instant, to become like their savior and like each of us and they will see him as he is.

When this is accomplished and death is abolished, Jesus will turn the Kingdom back over to his Father and our Father and we will be one BIG HAPPY FAMILY.

Joe and Kat, please advise or comment. Thanks, Bob

[rocky]

Folks,


Then when Jesus has finished his work with these folks, they will be changed, in an instant, to become like their savior and like each of us and they will see him as he is.

When this is accomplished and death is abolished, Jesus will turn the Kingdom back over to his Father and our Father and we will be one BIG HAPPY FAMILY.

Joe and Kat, please advise or comment. Thanks, Bob

The problem I personally see with this theory, is that the "changed in an instant" you don't call a resurrection (as this would imply a third resurrection), but call it a "change", even though a person in a mortal body has now become an immortal spiritual body, and death has been destroyed. 

So, what about those in the first resurrection who are alive at his coming who are changed in an instant, are they not resurrected?? but just instantly "changed"??

[Craig]

Folks, I know this topic is interesting and we would all like these answers, but the truth is we are spinning our wheels here. 

Both lines of thought on this lead to more questions than answers.  If the masses are raised in a physical body, do they all get raised at the same time?  If so there will be a bunch of people roaming the earth.  Are they raised the same age they died?  If not will there be billions of (God forbid) 16 year olds roaming the earth.   Can/will they have children?  Can/will they die?  etc. etc. etc.

As Joe says, even after much thought, no definitive answer is reached.   Face it, the scriptures are relatively quiet on this subject.  Ray, gives an opinion on this but he has said that the scripture is silent about this, so it is mostly conjecture and speculation on anyones part.   

There is much more important matters to worry about now.  Let's worry more about seeking the kingdom of God and less on what the kingdom of God is/will be like.   Seek the Kingdom of God above all else, and live righteously, and he will give you everything you need.  The scriptures are not quiet on this topic and Ray uses many, many, many scriptures to help us understand what we should be doing.  So strive to become more like Christ and defeat the beast within us and then the kingdom will only be a breath away.   

When I was still in the church I spent countless hours studying end time prophecy and reading everyone who had an opinion about it.  I wish I would have spent more time learning what the bible really had to say about seeking the kingdom..

I know whether I am in the elect, the called or the masses of humanity, God has me where I need to be and in this life the only thing I can see we are called to do is to seek the kingdom of God, and don't worry about who gets to clean the toilets until we get there.

Blessings!
Craig

[Harryfeat]

Hello Craig,

That is certainly good advice.  Otherwise we end up thinking about nonsensical things like how the first resurrection is really the rapture everybody is talking about. Or how is the earth surface going to be rearranged to handle countless billions of people. Or will the blind  still be so as when they died. Or will  cancer be cured.  Or will......


...and yet it is still such an intriguing topic. Wow massive reincarnation into the same bodies. I have to get busy reading and reflecting.

be blessed everyone
feat

[Kat]

Ok no speculation, but here's a few statistics to think about.  Most I got from from Wikipedia.

About 70.8% of the surface is covered by water, the remaining 29.2% not covered by water consists of mountains, deserts, plains, plateaus, and other geomorphologies.

It is estimated that only one eighth of the surface of the Earth is suitable for humans to live on — three-quarters is covered by oceans, and half of the land area is desert (14%), high mountains (27%), or other less suitable terrain.
Currently the total arable land is 13.31% of the land surface, with only 4.71% supporting permanent crops.  Close to 40% of the Earth's land surface is presently used for cropland and pasture, or an estimated 1.3% of cropland and 3.4% of pastureland.

In September, 2007, the world's population had reached over 6.7 billion. 
By the year 2011 it is expected to be 7 billion.
A 2003 estimate is that over 106 billion people have ever lived on earth.
-------------------------------------------------------------

The Lord will return and rule the nations.

Isa 34:1  Draw near, O nations, to hear; and listen, O peoples! Let the earth and all it contains hear, and the world and all that springs from it.
Isa 34:2  For the LORD'S indignation is against all the nations, And His wrath against all their armies; He has utterly destroyed them, He has given them over to slaughter.

Is this speaking of the new earth?

Isa 35:1  The wilderness and the desert shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice and blossom as the crocus.
Isa 35:2  It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing; the glory of Lebanon shall be given to it, the honor of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of Jehovah and the majesty of our God.

Just a few scripture to think about 

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[skydreamers]

Hey Guys,

Just a thought...maybe God will somehow make all the other planets in the universe inhabitable and the elect will each get their own planet to "rule"....maybe that's what all those empty planets are for....waiting to be inhabited by all the people that have ever lived.....who knows....

Peace,
Diana

[iris]

Just a few scriptures to consider.

Ezekiel 37:9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord God; Come  from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.

verse 10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding  great army.

 verse 11 Then he said unto me, Son man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.

verse 12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them. Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

verse 13 And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,

verse 14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the Lord have spoken it and performed it, saith the Lord.

Psalm 104: 30 Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.

verse 31 The glory of the Lord shall endure for ever: the Lord shall rejoice in his works.

verse 32 He looketh on the earth, and it trembleth: he toucheth the hills, and they smoke.

verse 33 I will sing unto the Lord as long as I live: I will sing praise to my God while I have my being.

verse 34 My meditation of him shall be sweet: I will be glad in the Lord.

verse 35 Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more, Bless thou the Lord, O my soul. Praise ye the Lord.

It sounds like we will live here on the earth with a physical body and a spiritual mind. At least thats what it sounds like.


Peace and Love
Iris

[jerreye]

Ray, gives an opinion on this but he has said that the scripture is silent about this, so it is mostly conjecture and speculation on anyones part.

 
I agree with you Craig that all of this "raised in physical bodies" stuff is all conjecture. I personally don't believe it at all (this is just my present opinion which may or may not be altered in the future)...

However, Ray seems to be quite dogmatic on this as he did not state that this was his "opinion". His language certainly made it look quite dogmatic. I hope he backs this up some day soon with scripture, cause this statement of his actually bothered me quite a bit.

Cheers,
Jeremy

[Word Student]

These discussions must be very much like those the Apostles had among themselves while pondering the words of Lord Messiah and trying to make sense of them.

Paul and Peter have written much on this topic.  But in a way that is not readily apparent.

The "gems" and "sacred secrets" they have written about which shed light on this topic are hard to understand and in fact are totally incomprehensible when we attempt to rely on our own abilities.  Thankfully, for our Father all things are possible and with the help of the "helper" we can obtain understanding.

But, only those who "work" are able to "eat" - and that is what is so frustrating for us today.  We've been so conditioned and brainwashed by our modern society to desire "instant" answers and "right-now" pleasures that we tend to easily give up on the "work" of digging for our "food."

Lord Messiah has promised us that if we persist in looking and digging we will assuredly find what we are looking for.  But not on our expectations or timetable.

These discussions are not fruitless even though they do not lead to immediate understanding.  They are most excellent exercise for our hearts and minds as we try to remember what we've learned.

In all that has been said thus far I would tend to believe that IndianaBob has most accurately portrayed what Ray has revealed in his understanding.

However, remember what was said in the word about who has come from Heaven and who will go to heaven.  Not all.

Think about why John the Baptist was not an apostle but fulfilled another prophetic function that has very much to do with us.  And the earlier story of Job provides a glimpse.

Think about why there were so few apostles that were given to Lord Messiah by the Father, and why they were so "special."

Think about why both Paul and Peter and John spoke certain messages to only the "elect" or "chosen ones" and they and James provide some insight as to who they truly are.

Above all, do not lose hope - in time you'll "get it!"