> General Discussions
Only the elect are raised spiritual
lilitalienboi16:
Alright everyone, i caught a glimpse of what ray has to say about the ressurection and all the confusion about is there 2 ressurections, how are we raised etc... Let me shed some light on what i heard.
If memory serves me right, in either the 'How much is all' or the 'biblical dates and chronology' audio's, i believe i heard ray briefly say that something along the lines of 'only the elect are raised spiritual bodies, the rest are raised in physical bodies.'
Now if i heard correctly, which i am open to mis interpreting or hearing, i believe i finaly understand where ray is comeing from on this thinking.
The other night, it just hit me as i was pondering what ray had said, because i have been confused for quiet some time about all this.
Now bare with me as i try and explain where i believe ray has gotten this understanding from. I have very little support for this but i believe ray has much more in his pocket then i can muster up. So here it is.
Paul states this;
Romans 6:5 "For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
We know those that are with Christ are the 'overcomers' those that are called, chosen and faithful to the end.
Revelation 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
So those raised in the likeness of Christ's ressurection are those that are with Him. How was Christ raised? A spiritual body. How do we know? well we know that He appeared in many different forms which would only be possible had He been a spiritual being ABLE TO take any form He pleases, even the one of His body that had been crucified.
We also have this statement;
1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
Okay so how do we know that the rest of the world is not raised in spiritual bodies? Well because they did not die in Christ's likeness. We also that;
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
However we know that this is not speaking of phsyical death because;
1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
So we know that this death that men must experience is not a physical one, now check this out;
Revelation 20:12 "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."
We know that these people are not standing in spiritual bodies BECAUSE they are DEAD and the PHYICALLY DEAD DO NOT STAND. What is this verse saying? They are SPIRITUAL DEAD standing in physical bodies. So how can they be raised in SPIRITUAL BODIES? They can't! Why? Because THE SPIRIT GIVES LIFE! They would be LIVING.
Romans 8:10 "And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness."
Okay i hope that made sence, this was tough to put into words, but i hope that i'm not to far off with what ray has comeing for us. I think God showed me this, and maybe i am wrong, but i thought i would share. Please let me know what you think, and if i am wrong about ray said then please forgive me! I'm not trying to preach or teach anything false, it's just what came to me, so please if i am in error i ask your forgivness and patience.
Edit: The only thing i would say is alittle bit confusing in all this, and it does make sence but it's the verse i quoted above;
1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
We are told the 'it' which is the 'natural body' is raised a spiritual body. So how come the rest of the world is not raised like this, it would seem to be a contradiction. Notice i did say seem. Perhaps this is mistranslated, i have not looked into it, or perhaps it's just that this was speaking of Christ and the elect only? I'm not sure... but either way, i think when ray finaly spills the beans its gonna be some good stuff. Just some food for thought for now. Anyone think they got any ideas on this verse here and how it ties into all this?
God be with you all,
Alex
hillsbororiver:
You bring up an interesting topic Alex.
I have given thought to this from time to time and have yet to come up with a definitive answer, but I believe that perhaps a clue (type/shadow?) to this may be in the resurrection of those (such as Lazarus) who were raised from the dead during Christ's earthly ministry and also those raised by the apostles.
We know they were not raised in spiritual bodies and we know they were not raised immortal or perfect, they were just not dead anymore. We can safely assume they continued to sin, have trials, problems, tears, even judgment.
There is so much depth to the Scriptures and usually we can find multiple lessons in the verses contained within it. So maybe there is more to be gleened from these resurrections than an awesome display of the power of God grabbing the attention of those who witnessed them.
Kat:
Hi Alex,
1Co 15:44 It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body.
We can understand who Paul is talking about at the beginning of this chapter.
1Co 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I make known unto you the joyful message, which I myself announced to you, which also ye received, in which also ye stand;
v. 2 Through which also ye are being saved,(Rotherham)
It say brethren and refers to those that are "being saved" or doesn't that mean begotten.
Ray made a statement in a resent email like you were talking about.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5547.0.html
COMMENT: Actually I have NEVER written about "the second death" as yet, and I have never said that when someone dies that they, "are no more." When a person dies they are not conscious, and their body decays, and their spirit returns to God, but there is no consciousness IN THE SPIRIT. It is the spirit that gives LIFE TO THE BODY, and so without a living body, there is no consciousness. Jesus will save them by bringing them back to life through RESURRECTION. The righteous believers will be resurrected with glorified spiritual bodies, and the wicked unbelievers with physical bodies to face Judgment. It is in Judgment that the wicked will be ultimately saved.
------------------------------------------------------
It does make you wonder why God would raise sinful people to glorified spirit bodies, to enter His heaven before they have been purified.
It is now in this physical human form that the elect are being judged and I can see how the process of being conformed to the image of Christ would be some what the some for the rest of humanity. It is through the sufferings of the flesh that we learn so many lessons.
Interesting topic, just thought I would give a little imput :)
mercy, peace and love
Kat
lilitalienboi16:
Thank you kat and joe, you both make great points.
I'm so glad that i wasn't hearing things when i heard what i thought i heard about the resurection of the wicked and those that are not being saved.
What you posted kat, certainly sheds light on who that verse is reffering to. I really appreciate it, all the pieces are coming together!
I can't wait for ray to talk about this.
Thanks and God bless,
Alex
Gregor:
Greetings Alex,
--- Quote from: lilitalienboi16 on September 26, 2007, 03:28:06 PM ---So those raised in the likeness of Christ's ressurection are those that are with Him. How was Christ raised? A spiritual body. How do we know? well we know that He appeared in many different forms which would only be possible had He been a spiritual being ABLE TO take any form He pleases, even the one of His body that had been crucified.
--- End quote ---
I'm not sure I can agree with you here, but I am open to correction. Here's why:
John 20:17 NKJV, "Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.'"
Jesus did many miracles here in the flesh. He "passed" through the masses at the temple when they wanted to either stone him or throw him off a cliff. He walked on water. He broke bread and fish and fed the multitudes. To assume he couldn't walk through a wall may be wrong. I've heard it said that the reason many didn't recognize him after his resurrection was precicely because he was still in his fleshly form (which would look very different after having been beaten, beard ripped out and thorns cramed on his head, etc.) I don't know for sure. But, when I read that Mary wanted to cling to him, (after recognizing his voice) and he told her not to, I ask why? Perhaps because it is a lesson to us not to cling to this world, this flesh, but that we need to realize God is spirit (to which Jesus would later ascend in Acts 1:9), as we will become. I don't know if we'll have a physical tangible body, as the flesh profits nothing. But I do know that we can "feel" pain in a limb that doesn't exist (medical phenomenom called "phantom pain") and that there are lots of things our natural mind has yet to comprehend. As for the dead standing, well they could have been lying and in that verse they are made to stand. Like I said, I don't know foresure, but am just throwing out some questions to further contemplate. I'm not trying to rain on your parade, just trying to promote some deeper thought. Hopefully I'm edifying and not tearing down?? I look forward to the replies.
Love in Christ,
G.
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
Go to full version