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[Falconn003]

seminole

If that is how you feel and all you get from Bible-truths forum, the door out is not locked , happy trails.

Rodger

[seminole]

See ya' around Falcon!

[Falconn003]

cya

Rodger

[hillsbororiver]

 There is elements of truth anywhere you find a group of people.

Hi Seminole,

The point of this thread was for anyone who thought the churches were teaching any scriptural truths to please go ahead and present them, not feelings not opinions but doctrine from any denomination that can be proven with scripture.

His Peace to you,

Joe

[hillsbororiver]

These teaching are not Rays' Teaching but the Truth from the anointing of the Holy Spirit. 

Amen to that Peggy, Ray would be the first to agree with you! 

 I believe Ray would not be offended by me saying this because He talks about read and studing the Word of God with the anointing.  I mean no offense.  In Jesus Peggy

Ray has spoken of and written about the few who in each generation and scattered throughout the world who have been given this gift of His Spirit to understand the deeper things of the Word. There is no doubt there are small groups perhaps speaking Chinese, or Russian or Korean, etc. who are discussing the same things we are. His people are "the salt of the earth" and we all know salt is never used in big lumps but lightly spread around. A little salt for the meat of His Word.

His Peace to you,

Joe

[rk12201960]

I forgot to add my last thought; it has been said that the church is like a club and I ask is that not the same as this is? You have to think like everyone else, post like everyone else and follow the teachings without question.

That was in the rules (like minded) Its not a trap but put out in front so this don't happen, anyway take care and salamat jalan. (good journey)
I follow Gods teachings and make NO MISTAKE about it I had questions and check it out much like most members do so that statement is incorrect, sorry.

Randy

[hillsbororiver]

  I just wonder if we will look back on what we say here and think how elementary this was. 

Hello again Peggy,

Absolutely! 

1Co 13:12  For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

His Peace to you,

Joe

[hillsbororiver]

What a great thread.  It sure has got me thinking!  I am still in a church.  I don't know how to leave with my husband about to go into "full-time" ministry there as an associate pastor.  I could walk out today if it were not for my husband.  I admit I don't hate it there-the people are nice, and I even have some great friends, but I don't want to be there anymore!  I think being there all the time is messing with my emotions.  It's not messing with my mind, but I feel emotionally torn.  More and more I see the sillyness (is that a word? :-)  of church and all of it's "stuff".  I sit there week after week thinking over and over, "What is this all for??"  To them, and my husband, it is all the work of God. 

We bought a new building a month ago and have been working on it as a church to get it looking sharp and nice-and it's all the "work of God", you know.  I was thinking-even this is a lie, because God does not live in buildings made with hands!!  But we have to have a nice building, you know, to see more kids and people saved. 

In the meantime, no one is getting "saved".  Ironic, isn't it?

Sometimes, I am ashamed to be there.  There is alot of pride in this building and all the work going into it.  I help because of my husband.  I don't want to break his heart, yet.  I know I will if I quit church. 

I want to leave, but it's just not time. 

I used to think that the church has some things right-basic things like God's love, all of us sinners in need of a Saviour, God's sovereignty, etc., etc.  But there seems to always be a man-made doctrine to counteract each truth, like eternal torture, not all will be saved, man's free-will, etc., etc. 

Just a great thread to turn the wheels in my mind-thanks!

Blessings,
Beth     

Hi Beth,

That is certainly quite the dilemma you are struggling with presently, but please do not let it consume you, God will certainly drag you out in His time.

Does your husband ever ask you about the differences in your beliefs versus the church doctrines? Is he open to searching the Word together? I know there are sincere people within these buildings but there are many that are content with following old traditional doctrines that they just don't question. Remind him of the Bereans.... (Acts 17:11)  Not content with just hearing the words of the apostles, but wanting to see chapter and verse. Working out their own salvation.... (Phillipians 2:12). 

I know there are some here that are of the opinion that the majority of us just accept what Ray writes and that is that, but I know that in my own case and in the case of the majority here that if Ray would write his opinions/feelings without scriptural witnesses he would be on the receiving end of a bunch of pointed questions, real quick.

To me the answer at this time would be to support your husband as you witness to him in words and deeds, perhaps the Lord will be dragging you both at the same time, maybe your husband just does not know it yet! 

A sacred secret maybe?

Only He knows for sure.

His Peace to you,

Joe

[hillsbororiver]

Hi Joe,
John 6:35: Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty".

John 7:38: Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him.


 I think that there is no real Truth in the Church:
 
For, lo, the Lord, Jehovah of Hosts, Is turning aside from Jerusalem [the Church], And from Judah, stay and staff, Every stay of bread, and every stay of water. Isaiah 3:1

All of the [spiritual] bread and water is taken from the Church. This Bread and Water is Christ, and Christ said I am the way and the TRUTH and the life. John 14:6

The righteous, however, shall have their fill of bread and water:

 Isaiah 33:
14The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
 15He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;
 16He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure.

This is how I see these verses. I'm open to any correction if I'm incorrect...I'm still pretty new at seeing the "spiritual" in things, so I may be wrong. 

Hi Extol,

It certainly is exciting to be seeing things in a spiritual light isn't it? I know it took a few reads on Bible Truths as the Spirit of Christ began to open my eyes before the bible began to open up (unseal?) to me.

I believe you hit it right on the money!

His Peace to you,

Joe

[seminole]

Jesus came and died for our sins. That is so. Jesus taught that we should put no one or no thing above Him. Jesus taught that we should look at our own faults before putting someone else's faults on trial. Jesus said that He would go (the ascencion) but would send a comforter and that we should follow what He taught while on this earth. He said to the thief on the cross, "Today you will be with me in paradise". He taught a lot of things that some (not all ) churches teach today. So is everything great in a church? No! Are things great here? No! We do the best we can with God's help and guidance in our lives.

[Kat]

Hi seminole,

If you are not seeing some 'great' truth being revealed to you at BT, well as Ray says, the truth is not for everybody.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[seminole]

Kat, I did not intend that as a put-down to this site. The only thing I was attempting to point out is that many things I learned about such as i read, did come through church and at my Grandmother's knee. Also, just pointing out that things are not perfect anywhere. What I have gained from this site is seeing a true , heartfelt, desire of many to learn and grow. Also the privelege of "hearing" some great testimonies of God's work in the lives of people. On the flip side I have seen some (not much) discord but that is to be expected as long as we humans are involved in anything!
respectfully, Seminole

[Kat]

Seminole,

It sounds to me like you are only talking about this forum? 
I'm talking about what Ray has taught on the BT site.  He has revealed a lot amazing truths from the scriptures, that I have never heard any where else.
This forum is great, but it is what Ray is showing through the scripture, where I have gained much understanding.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[hillsbororiver]

Jesus came and died for our sins.
 

Seminole,

The churches do not teach the Lord died for the sins of the world, they teach a large portion of mankind will be tortured in hell for eternity or will be annihilated.

Big difference Brother.

His Peace to you,

Joe

[hillsbororiver]

As I was rereading "You Fools! You Hypocrites! You Snakes!" it seemed appropriate to cut a portion of it and paste it here; You can read the the whole article @ http://bible-truths.com/fools.htm


VESSELS IN A GREAT HOUSE

Listen carefully, for these prophecies are not directed toward the world of unbelievers, but to the Church of God:

"But in A GREAT HOUSE there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth and some to honor, and some to dishonor" (II Tim. 2:20).

Just what is this "great house" of which Paul speaks? Let Paul answer:

"But if I tarry long, that you may know how you ought to behave yourself in the House of God which is The Church of the Living God, the pillar and ground of the truth" (I Tim. 3:15).

The Apostle Peter tells us that this House of God definitely needs judging:

"For the time is come that JUDGMENT must begin at The House of God…" (I Pet. 4:17).

If the "House of God" needed judgment in the days of the Apostles, how much more judgment does it need today? And what did Paul prophesy would happen in this "GREAT House" in our day, "in the LATTER TIMES?" Let’s read it from the source:

"Now the Spirit speaks expressly, that in the LATTER TIMES some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking LIES IN HYPOCRISY; having their conscience seared with a hot iron" (I Tim. 4:1).

And this:

"This, know also, that IN THE LAST DAYS, perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent [without self-control], fierce [brutal], despisers of those that are good, traitors, heady [reckless], high-minded [haughty], lovers of pleasures more than [rather than] lovers of God; having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away… EVER learning, and NEVER able to come to the knowledge of the truth" (II Tim. 3:1-7).

Some Christians naively believe Paul and all these prophecies are speaking of the whole world, of mankind in general. Oh no He isn’t: It is not the atheistic heathen world which has "departed from the faith," who "blaspheme God," who have a "form of godliness," or who have "turned away from such." Oh no. It is the HOUSE OF GOD which has done these things and continues to do them.

For sure Paul didn’t say that the vessels in this great house would wax "better and better." Let Paul answer again by continuing his prophecy in II Tim. 3. We ended with verse 7, so let’s pick it up again in verse 8:

"Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do THESE [these vessels of dishonor in God’s House] also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the truth. But they shall proceed [Gk: ‘increase, advance, grow’] no further [Just as Jannes and Jambres could resist God only so far and no further, so too, will these corrupt-minded reprobates in God’s House cease to deceive God’s church, when God makes all secrets known to all]: for their folly shall be manifest unto all, as theirs [Jannes & Jambres] was." (II Tim. 3:8-9).

Notice Paul’s stern warning:

"For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things to draw away disciples after them" (Acts 20:29-30).

I decided to write this paper after receiving thousands of angry emails condemning my tone of writing and teaching, all from Christians mind you. I was reminded just yesterday by email that I should not be repeating Peter’s words when He said, "…there shall be false teachers among you, who privily [smuggle] shall bring in damnable heresies…" (II Pet. 2:1). I was told this phrase carries a different meaning today from when Peter spoke it. Many warn me of dire consequences if I continue. I am regularly cursed with far worse hard-core, lewd four letter words of filth than I have ever heard in my four years in the U S Army, and these from self-proclaimed followers of Jesus Christ—CHRISTIANS!

The purpose of this paper is not to defend my style of writing, (God only knows that I do not profess to be a scholar, nor a polished orator, nor a man of eloquent words), but to rather see how Jesus really taught in public, to the masses, and particularly to the lying, hypocritical Scribes and Pharisees. We will examine whether Jesus Christ Himself did indeed use sarcasm, exaggeration, caricature, satire, irony, and anger to get across His Gospel Message.

WHO IS IT THAT WILL GET "WORSE & WORSE?"

"Yes, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. But EVIL MEN AND SEDUCERS [Gk: ‘imposters’] SHALL WAX [grow] WORSE AND WORSE, deceiving, and being deceived" (II Tim. 3:13).

And just who is it that grows "worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived?" The men and women of the world? The pagans and heathens? Is this what Paul means? Of course not. These are the leaders of the Church.

"Preach the word; [the WHOLE Word of God]; be instant in season, out of season, reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine [Who? The world? The pagans? The atheist? Why they have never had sound doctrine in the first place] but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables" (II Tim. 4:2-4).

The heathen nations of the 21st century are not "turning away from the truth unto fables." They have never as nations had the truth.

Notice also Peter’s stern warning regarding what was happening in the past in his time, and what was prophesied to continue until our time and beyond:

"But there were false prophets [a ‘prophet’ can mean one who speaks in behalf of God’] also among the people, even as there shall be [future] false teachers among you [and among US], who privily shall bring in [Gk: smuggle in] DAMNABLE HERESIES, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And MANY shall follow their pernicious [destructive] ways; by reason of whom the way of the truth shall be evil spoken of [Gk: ‘blasphemed’]" (II Pet. 2:1-2).

At the conclusion of this paper we will take a look at some of these: "FABLES AND DAMNABLE HERESIES" that the Church Fathers and Theologians have substituted over the centuries and down to our day in place of God’s sound doctrines.

Listen: Either conditions in the prophesied Church of today are MUCH WORSE than they were at the time of Jesus and the Apostles, or the prophecies LIE. So which do you believe is true?

[skydreamers]

Anyone want to comment on what the churches might say about these verses in light of the fact they (mainstream christianity) teaches man was created perfect?

Jer 18:4  And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

Rom 8:20  For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

Hi Joe,

This has been a really great thread!  I'm trying to catch up with everything as I've been away for a couple weeks.  This particular post stuck out to me because I had opportunity to have some in-depth discussions with my sister-in-law, and one of the things she kept going back to was that Adam and Eve were perfect and messed up by making the wrong choice....I quoted the verse in Jeremiah to her but she just couldn't connect the dots.  I do think she was able to receive some of the things I said, and something that really interested her was that there are two resurrections...she has never been taught anything about the resurrections in the church!  Isn't that amazing, since Paul says that our faith hinges upon the truth of the resurrection:

1 Corinthians 15:13-22
But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised.
And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain...
...For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised.   And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins...
...But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead.
For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.


I find the whole free will thing to be the biggest barrier in trying to consider universal salvation, because people still hang on to the idea that if they can choose to reject God they will be forever lost.  It is a strong delusion indeed.

Thanks for all the great stuff in this thread everybody!

Peace,
Diana

[hillsbororiver]

Thanks Diana,

It is great to see you here again!

Isn't it amazing how folks can still hang on to the fallacy that Adam & Eve were created perfect when the scriptures say otherwise?

We are witnessing a miracle really, the eyes He keeps in the dark for His time and season but once He grants the Light to shine through we are struck by the clarity of these verses, how could it be missed?

We know how....

His Peace to you,

Joe
 

[eggi]

It's just amazing to see how far some are willing to go in "thinking above that which is written":

God should not otherwise be manifested to be the only God of all men, unless he should show his goodness in saving all types of men. Neither should Christ be seen to be the only mediator between God and all types of men, by having taken upon him that nature of man which is common to all men, unless he had satisfied for all types of men, and made intercession for all. (Geneva commentary on 1Ti 2:5)

Instead of recognizing that "all" would have to mean "all", they say that it means "all types of men". So, Jesus is the Saviour of "all types of men"? Meaning BOTH lawyers and academics?? It's really sounding stupid: "Jesus Christ, Saviour of all types of men"...

Give me a break! 

God bless you,
Eirik