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Jesus Nature?
Kat:
Hi sonofone,
Maybe this part of Ray's article A of 'The Myth of Free-Will Exposed' will explain what Ray teaches concerning Adam and Eve eating of the forbidden fruit.
http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html ---------------------------------
IN THE BEGINNING/IN THE GARDEN
What was the first historically recorded choice of our first parents? We read of Mother Eve that:
"…she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat…" (Gen. 3:6).
But was this the first choice and the first sin attributed to our Mother Eve? No, it wasn’t the first. It was not even the second, or the third choice.
It is generally taught that Adam and Eve were spiritually perfect immediately after their creation, seeing that it says,
"And God saw every thing that He had made, and, behold, it was very good…" (Gen. 1:31).
Never mind the fact that even poisonous snakes were also "very good." Of course everything God made was "good." It was, in fact, even "perfect"—perfect, that is, for the purpose for which it was created.
But did our first parents have perfect and good spiritual character of heart when God completed them? Absolutely not! Far from it! They were as carnal-minded as any two people who have ever lived.
The Scriptures show us that Eve committed every known category of sin there is, before she ever ate of the forbidden fruit. This one should knock your socks off. It knocked mine off when I first discovered it.
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LOVE NOT THE WORLD—THREE CATEGORIES OF SIN
"Love NOT the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father IS NOT IN HIM. For [for means ‘because’] ALL that is in the world,
1. the lust of the FLESH,
2. the lust of the EYES,
3. and the pride of LIFE,
is not of the Father, but is of the world.
And the world passes away, and the lust thereof: but he that does the will of God abides for ever" (I John 2:15-17).
Notice that "…ALL that is in the world…"—all the sins of the world, have their origin in one of these three categories of sin that proceeds "out of THE HEART." Not out of the "will" or out of the "mind," but "out of THE HEART." The "will" and the "mind" are subject to the "heart," and not the other way around. The heart is not subject to the will, neither is the heart subject to the mind, but rather both of these are subject to the birthplace of all human functions—the HEART!
Simply and unarguably, Jesus states as a fact, that all evil thoughts and sins proceed OUT OF THE HEART.
Now, with all that said, let’s prove once and for all that Mother Eve and Adam were (1) NOT spiritually perfect in any way shape or form, BEFORE they actually ate of the forbidden fruit, and (2) neither did they sin and then partake of the forbidden fruit through the operation of something called "free will."
"And when the woman saw that the tree was GOOD FOR FOOD… Gen. 3:6:
"…lust of the FLESH…" (I John 2:15)
and that it was PLEASANT TO THE EYES… Gen. 3:6:
"…lust of the EYES…" (I John 2:15)
and a tree to be DESIRED TO MAKE ONE WISE Gen. 3:6:
"…the PRIDE OF LIFE" (I John 2;15)
Eve committed EVERY CATEGORY OF SIN THERE IS IN THE WORLD, before… BEFORE she actually ate of the forbidden fruit.
ALL of Eve’s evil thoughts of pride, vanity, lust, greed, disobedience, and finally thievery proceeded NOT from Eve’s supposed "free will," but rather from out of her HEART. And the only reason these sins could come out of her heart is because THEY WERE ALREADY IN THERE FROM THE BEGINNING. BEFORE Eve actually ate of the forbidden fruit, she committed every category of sin in the world. And need I remind us that we were also, ALL IN ADAM, before he ate of the tree (I Cor. 15:22). Will we deny our own eyes and the Scriptures we have just read?
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
sonofone:
Hey Kat, thanks for the link I have read these before,but thanks just the same. This is the problem I have. I don't agree with Ray on this matter. I don't understand how Adam and Eve could have been spiritually and physically alive if they were created in sin. Sin brings death,spiritual and physical. If they were already sinful before they ate the fruit why were they not already spiritually disconnected from God?We are born spiritually dead and physically dying.This was not the case for them. At worst they were spiritually neutral,meaning they were capable of sinning but had not sinned or activated the law of sin.I mean no disrespect to anyone here I hope this does not cause any problems for me here.
rocky:
I am not sure I fully understand why Adam was not deceived, and Eve was??
How come Adam, a man of flesh, wasn't deceived?? Didn't the serpent have power to deceive Adam if he was flesh??
There's something in there in the relationship to the church (Eve), pain with child birth (our spiritual birth), and judment upon Adam=death.
Here's some scriptures i am pondering
Eve:
Rom 7:11 for sin taking occasion through the commandment deceived me, and through it killed me.
ignorant?? same as deceived??
Luk 23:34 Then Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do."[8] And they divided His garments and cast lots.
Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God.
1Co 14:38 But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant. [5]
Heb 5:2 He can have compassion on those who are ignorant and going astray, since he himself is also subject to weakness.
Eve was deceived, she was ignorant??
Adam:
2Co 2:11 lest Satan should take advantage of us; for we are not ignorant of his devices.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
??
any ideas??
sonofone:
I'm sorry but you have to accept the scriptures for what they say,and I sympathize with you. Furthermore if there is no free will than this is the way God intended it to be. Eve deceived not Adam. Man over Woman it is the order of creation and the result of sin.
rjsurfs:
The subject of this thread is interesting... and has been on my mind of late. This thread has somewhat wound through several topics so forgive me if I too am off-topic. I enjoyed Gregor's first reply as well as Kat's response regarding the Nashville convention. I was blessed to be there for sure.
Regarding the nature of Jesus in regards to what Kat posted (a quote from Ray's Nashville visit):
--- Quote ---And God said, I will DIE!
But God can’t die, He’s eternal, He has immortality, deathlessness. If you have immortality you can’t die.
So He made a Son. He made Him great. And to show us how great He was, He said, let Me show you what I can do when I make a Son. Ok, Create the universe first, now become a man, and now die.
--- End quote ---
Now the Christian Church teaches that Christ is one person with two natures, one divine and one human. They teach that these natures are not mixed together and not seperable.... And this is where heresy snowballs with the perversion of the character of God... one lie builds upon another. Jesus died. He was dead. In Sheol... where there is no perception.
At their loss or inability, the Church does not believe or want to believe what Jesus saves us from much less what he actually did. He died. He was dead. And dead means dead, not really alive somewhere else. Dead.
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