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Author Topic: Great Question  (Read 11381 times)

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ciy

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Great Question
« on: September 29, 2007, 01:53:24 AM »

Here is a good question that maybe all of you know the answer, but I just started to ponder it and it is really amazing when you realize the depth of the meaning.

Who is the first person in the world to repent over the crucifixion of Jesus?

Now you probably know the answer, but that is not the end of it.  Ponder the answer and realize what it means.  Ray touched on this in one of his writings, but think about it.  The first person to repent over the crucifixion of Jesus was the first person to realize that he is the one who caused Jesus to be crucified.  He realized that Jesus was an innocent man and died because of him.  Just as we must come to realize that we are that same person and we are the one who crucified Jesus.  Only when you are really hemmed up with the truth and no where else to go will it really sink in that you are the one that forsake Jesus.  You are the one that sold him out and even kissed him on the cheek so that the princes of the world would approve of you and you could become a prince of this world.  Just because you thought you could become a prince of this world and get power now, you sold out Jesus. 

Judas sold out Jesus and repented before Peter, John, James, etc realized what was happening.  Why?  Because he was the first one to become the prodigal son and forsake his father for immediate glory in this world, or at least he is the first one that realized it.

Amazing stuff.  God's way of communicating is awesome.
CIY
« Last Edit: September 29, 2007, 01:56:04 AM by ciy »
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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: Great Question
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2007, 11:27:00 AM »

Hello ciy

Here are some points to add regarding this topic quoting Ray in blue font :

Have you never read where Judas "REPENTED [same word used where Jesus preached "repentance" to enter into the Kingdom] for the evil crime he had committed  (Matt. 27:3 & Matt. 3:2)?  http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4632.0.html

.... he lost his standing as a apostle when he killed himself. He couldn't very well serve as an apostle from the grave. He certainly felt bad about what he had done, which shows a conscience. On the other hand, he was a coward to face his sins like a man, and took what was to him the easier way out. He will come up in judgment, and all the carnality left will be burned out by God's consuming spiritual fire.
God be with you,
Ray
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,302.0.html

So there are four things that happen with sin:

1.   Committed
2.   Remitted
3.   Repented
4.   Removed

That’s the sequence.  And repentance is where you accelerate this.  All through your life you learn to mature, learn to operate in society, learn to obey the laws of the higher powers and so on…stopping at stop signs, staying under the speed limit etc….you do all these things, which are admirable.  We should do them.  But there comes a time when you have to just stop doing good things and repent of who and what you are.  And then you will start to make real progress.

We sin, God forgives it.
We repent, God removes it.

That’s the way it’s done and it will be done that way with every human being.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3709.0.html

What I find interesting is that Judas shows he had a conscience as Ray points out yet he will experience the LOF because he had not yet matured to the standard height of Christ. Jesus did not take his own life in suicide. He lay it down and was murdered. I do not see Judas as the closest to the image of Christ or the first in the line of salvation. He might be among the first to be cast into the LOF.

Just my thoughts.
Peace to you

Arcturus :)
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ciy

  • Guest
Re: Great Question
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2007, 12:33:50 PM »

Arcturus

I did not mean he was first in line of salvation.  He was the first to repent when he realized he was the main one who caused Jesus to be crucified.  He was not faithful to the end. I believe that will be purged out of him in LOF.

I believe that we must realize that we are Judas.  That we are the one who crucified Jesus.  When we do we will repent like many that are on this forum, but will we stay faithful to the end like Jesus or will we lose our faith and not be faithful to the end going back to the way of flesh. 

Like you quoted:

We sin, God forgives it.
We repent, God removes it

I think it is an amazing point to realize that you are the one who crucified Jesus and when you truly realize it then you will want to kill the beast in you that caused you to crucify Him. 

CIY
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LittleBear

  • Guest
Re: Great Question
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2007, 02:39:37 PM »

I always felt sorry for Judas, because he was remorseful, and like Ray said, took the easier way out. I wonder what he thought would happen if he stuck around, and why did he think suicide was the only way for him? Anyway, I think perhaps he became a type or parable of those who are running the race, and then when adversity strikes, they fall away.(please God, keep us!) Or like you say CIY, which is even closer to home, whenever we sell Jesus out so that the princes of the world will approve of us, we betray Him. That is too easy to do, and look at the imagery of what this looks like to God:

Acts 1:18 Now this man purchased a field with the wages of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his entrails gushed out.

Not nice.
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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: Great Question
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2007, 03:40:34 PM »

It is all as God has planned that Judas ended his life when he did!

As Craig so astutely observed in the Force Thread regarding how Peter denied knowing Jesus Craig points out : There is no doubt in my mind that if the same circumstances would have happened to Peter later in life he would have had a different answer.

Peter cried bitterly but God preserved his faith through his trial and brought Peter into repentance, humility and His Grace. Judas will experience the same influence that will bring him to repentance, humility and saving Grace and Judas too will learn righteousness.

It was not planned for Judas to go find Jesus and apologise and seek forgiveness. Judas will be saved through the Lake of Fire but just think how delighted he will be to see Jesus Christ risen and triumphant over the world which I believe Judas aspired to see in a much more carnal way when Jesus walked on the earth.

Just my thoughts.

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
« Last Edit: September 29, 2007, 03:41:53 PM by Arcturus »
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Harryfeat

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Re: Great Question
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2007, 04:06:47 PM »

I always felt sorry for Judas, because he was remorseful, and like Ray said, took the easier way out. I wonder what he thought would happen if he stuck around, and why did he think suicide was the only way for him? Anyway, I think perhaps he became a type or parable of those who are running the race, and then when adversity strikes, they fall away.(please God, keep us!) Or like you say CIY, which is even closer to home, whenever we sell Jesus out so that the princes of the world will approve of us, we betray Him. That is too easy to do, and look at the imagery of what this looks like to God:

Acts 1:18 Now this man purchased a field with the wages of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his entrails gushed out.

Not nice.

Hello Little Bear,

I also hold a bit of empathy for Judas.  He was one of the chosen twelve, yet God's plan for him was to betray Jesus to his accusers.  We are very quick to say that Judas will be thrown into the LOF with the rest who are not elect or not in the book of life according to Revelations.  How do we know that he is not ultimately one elect. He repented and his remorse was so great that he did himself in.  Was he in such mental anguish as will be endured in the LOF.  Was his LOF actually being described to us as we see his final acts of despair.  Remember that he is still under the old law.  In his mind, stoning would be his just punishment[yet not practical to be self inflicted ;-)]

What can be said of those who commit suicide when in an extreme case of mental duress?  I do not see how we can be so quick to judge Judas as not utlimately being one of the elect.
Mat 19:28 And, Jesus, said unto them—Verily, I say unto you, As for you who followed me in the regeneration, When the Son of Man shall take his seat on his throne of glory, ye also, shall be seated upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.


Who is to sit in throne number 12 if Jesus was not referring to Judas?


In my opinion it is not up to me to decide whether Judas is not written in the book of life and to be thrown into the LOF.  I am not the final judge.

be blessed
feat
« Last Edit: September 29, 2007, 04:14:11 PM by Harryfeat »
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LittleBear

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Re: Great Question
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2007, 04:57:30 PM »

  Was he in such mental anguish as will be endured in the LOF.  Was his LOF actually being described to us as we see his final acts of despair. 

That's interesting feat, I never thought of it that way about Judas,
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dawnnnny

  • Guest
Re: Great Question
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2007, 05:09:02 PM »

Good point Feat, it does make one wonder....
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ciy

  • Guest
Re: Great Question
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2007, 05:26:27 PM »

We should feel empathy for Judas because Judas is us.

CIY
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skydreamers

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Re: Great Question
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2007, 06:31:48 PM »

Acts 1:16-18
"Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke beforehand by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus.  For he was numbered among us and was allotted his share in this ministry."  (Now this man bought a field with the reward of his wickedness, and falling headlong he burst open in the middle and all his bowels gushed out.

splagchnon
Thayer Definition:
1) bowels, intestines, (the heart, lungs, liver, etc.)
1a) bowels
1b) the bowels were regarded as the seat of the more violent passions, such as anger and love; but by the Hebrews as the seat of the tenderer affections, especially kindness, benevolence, compassion; hence our heart (tender mercies, affections, etc.)
1c) a heart in which mercy resides

I found it interesting to look into this word and how it is used in other scripture.  Look at this:

2 Corinthians 6:11-13
We have spoken freely to you, Corinthians; our heart is wide open.  You are not restricted by us, but you are restricted in your own affections.  In return (I speak as to children) widen your hearts also.


Philippians 1:8
For God is my witness, how I yearn for you all with the affection of Christ Jesus.

Philippians 2:1
So if there is any encouragement in Christ, any comfort from love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection and sympathy

Colossians 3:12
Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender feelings of mercy, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, long-suffering,

Philemon 1:7
For I have derived much joy and comfort from your love, my brother, because the hearts of the saints have been refreshed through you.

1 John 3:17
But if anyone has the world's goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God's love abide in him?

Perhaps this is a clue as to what was going on with Judas in his final hours...

Peace,
Diana




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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: Great Question
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2007, 07:57:46 PM »

Perhaps it is too literal to say we are Judas. Maybe you need to reword this Ciy.

I can relate to the teaching that we are the Beast because the Beast is a spirit.

Judas was a man and he is dead.

We can display the traits of the Beast that was manifested through Judas and every other unregenerate soul who has ever betrayed or denied Christ or left their first love, but to say we are Judas in the absence of clarification through Scriptural witness, may well lead to ideas that are not contained in the Word of God and lead off from the message of Christ and His good news.

As I see this, we are not Adam or Eve. We are not Jesus and never will be. Some will be raised in His likeness but not His sameness. There is one God one First Fruits that is Christ and there are to be brethren in the family of God the Father and Christ His Son. We can not be anyone who has already lived and died yet we certainly may display and receive from Christ His qualites or be put through a struggle like Judas because of our shared weak spiritual condition of carnality.

1 Cor 10 : 13 For no temptation no trial regarded as enticing to sin, not matter how it comes or where it leads has overtaken you and laid hold on you that is not COMMON TO MAN ( Could common to man mean carnality? I believe so and here I see the common ground we share with sinful man. )

1 Cor 10 : 11 Now all these things BEFELL THEM by way of a figure as an example and warning to us: they were written to admonish and fit us for right action by good instruction, we in whose days the ages have reached their climax. (Note: Caps do not mean I am shouting or turning up the volume but are simply entered to show emphasis and draw attention to clarify.)


I believe that we are the unique creation of Christ and we hold unique destinies in Him just like every other soul does that has been created for the purpose of God and His Will. No two snow flakes or finger prints are the same. I do not see that any two souls can be the same yet they can be equally carnal and suffer equal circumstances but they are not mass produced photo copies. God is unique. I believe His work is uniquely fitted for each one of us.

We do have sin in common but in Christ there is nothing common but everything unique, fresh, original and incomparable! I believe we are unique in Christ but the same in our carnality.

we certainly can be like Judas in our betrayals of Christ. We do have the sin of rejecting Christ and having to be dragged by our Father to Him to be restored, healed and regenerated by His Spirit. We all begin in the physical and will be transformed into the Spiritual image and likeness of Christ but that will not mean for me, that we will loose our identity, uniqueness and there in our diversity in Christ will finally be our strength.

Just my thoughts.

Peace to you

Arcturus :)

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Gregor

  • Guest
Re: Great Question
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2007, 08:30:56 PM »

Doesn't Ray (and I assume the bible) mention in his writings that Satan actually entered Judas? I think that the result for Judas was the same as when the demon legion entered the pigs and they ran off the cliff. Different method, same result - death. Godly sorrow leads to repentance, which leads to life. I don't think most people ever actually encounter satan (I only recall Eve, possibley Job, Judas, and Jesus. ???) though we all feel the effect of this lier/murderer.
G.
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Harryfeat

  • Guest
Re: Great Question
« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2007, 10:14:04 PM »

Hello Gregor,

Is this the reference in question?

Joh 13:26 Jesus, then, is answering and saying, "He it is to whom I, dipping in the morsel, shall be handing it.Dipping in the morsel, then, He is taking it and giving it to Judas, son of Simon Iscariot."
Joh 13:27 And after the morsel, then, Satan entered into that man. Jesus, then, is saying to him, "What you are doing, do more quickly."

« Last Edit: September 29, 2007, 10:15:23 PM by Harryfeat »
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: Great Question
« Reply #13 on: September 30, 2007, 12:02:54 AM »


Here are a couple of things Ray has on Judas.


This is from the article 'THE KISS OF DEATH'


http://bible-truths.com/kiss.htm -------------------------------------------

Judas was a wolf in sheep’s clothing. The apostles saw a sheep—Jesus saw a wolf. What was Judas’ ultimate sheep’s camouflage? Why, wasn’t it a simple, sincere, pure, godly "kiss?" Think again.

"Now he that betrayed Him give them a sign, saying, Whomsoever I shall kiss, the same is He: hold Him fast. And forthwith he came to Jesus, and said, Hail, master; and kissed Him" (Matt. 26:48-49).

You have all seen this drama acted out many times in films—a simple little peck on Jesus’ cheek. Oh really?

The five Scriptures using the word "kiss" from Paul and Peter, always used the Greek word "philema" which means "kiss" and nothing else. In Luke 22:48 we read this:

"But Jesus said unto him, Judas, betray you the Son of man with a kiss [Gk: a simple ‘philema’ kiss]?"

But in Matt. 26:48, we find something totally different. Judas told the elders and chief priest:

"…whomsoever I shall [PHILEO—passionate fondness] kiss, that same is He…"

Judas did not have a "philema" kiss in mind at all. The "kiss" in Matt. 26:48 is a "phileo" kiss, and it means a fond, affectionate, passionate kiss, not a simple "philemo kiss." And the elders and high priest knew the different in these two words. One was a peck on the cheek, but Judas determined to use a more a passionate, huggie huggie kissie kissie display in his attempt to betray Jesus to the devouring and ravaging wolves.

This is really intriguing stuff. Now after Judas tells the priest and elders what kind of a kiss he will give Jesus [a phileo kiss] to betray Jesus, He actually delivers this kiss. And how does he do that? He does it with yet another Greek word for kiss, which is, "kataphileo" mean "to kiss EARNESTLY."

This "kataphileo kiss" is used three other times in Scriptures:

Luke 7:45—"You gave me no kiss [no affectionate ‘phileo’ kiss, Jesus admonishes His disciples] but this woman since the time I came in has not ceased to kiss [‘kataphileo kisses’—earnestly] My feet."

Luke 15:20—"And he [the prodigal son] arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him [earnestly and passionately with a ‘kataphileo kisses’]."

Acts 20:37—"And they all wept sore, and fell on Paul’s neck, and kissed him [with ‘cataphileo kisses’ of great passion and earnest]."

Is it not abundantly clear that this super emotional use of hugs and kisses was used only on the most RARE occasions of deep and profound emotional circumstances? But this is not proper conduct for everyday behavior. See these over-pious charlatans for what they are. Be suspect of those who use super-pious and sanctimonious hugs and kisses every day of the week.

Now to the Judas Kiss of Death:

"And forthwith he came to Jesus, and said, Hail, Master; and KISSED HIM."

The Greek is "kisses"—multiple kisses, with ‘kataphilio kisses, just as we find in every single use of this word in Scriptures I showed above.

No, Judas did not betray Jesus with a peck on the cheek; he deceitfully delivered a "huggie huggie kissie kissie, fraudulent hugs and KISSES OF DEATH!

What must we learn from all this? Whenever we pretend to be Christ-like but it’s all a charade, we too are guilty of giving Christ a Judas kiss of death. What a disgusting display of the carnal mind and flesh, Judas has left us. Some have vengeance in their heart, others vanity, others bitterness and hatred, and yet others uncontrollable sins of the flesh, but they try to camouflage their evils with a plethora of hugs and kisses to all.

Don’t be afraid to hug; don’t be afraid to kiss, but beware of such phony displays of pious emotions, as they could be your "KISS OF DEATH."

A spiritual hug to you all, from my heart,

Ray


http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,302.0.html ----------------

Dear Harry:
Well, for one thing, he lost his standing as a apostle when he killed himself. He couldn't very well serve as an apostle from the grave. He certainly felt bad about what he had done, which shows a conscience. On the other hand, he was a coward to face his sins like a man, and took what was to him the easier way out. He will come up in judgment, and all the carnality left will be burned out by God's consuming spiritual fire.
God be with you,
Ray

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DuluthGA

  • Guest
Re: Great Question
« Reply #14 on: September 30, 2007, 12:54:50 AM »

Hi all,

CIY I very much appreciate what I took to mean your figurative/spiritual we are the one who crucified Jesus as it seems to me to be addressed by:

James 2: 10   For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

This verse is used by Ray in 'Repentance Parts 1 and 2' to show that we are communally involved, per this scripture, in the hideous and gross acts of criminals.  Ick :-X  but true.

I am especially intrigued by feat's to Little Bear:  Was he (Judas) in such mental anguish as will be endured in the LOF.  Was his LOF actually being described to us as we see his final acts of despair.

Certainly worth a thought or two, and further:

Quote
In my opinion it is not up to me to decide whether Judas is not written in the book of life and to be thrown into the LOF.  I am not the final judge.

Quite rightly brother because...

John 5: 21   For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.  ;)

AND GOOD QUESTION FEAT: 
Quote
Who is to sit in throne number 12 if Jesus was not referring to Judas?
  Unless it is for his replacement apostle. (??)

Thanks to all!
Janice
« Last Edit: September 30, 2007, 01:04:28 AM by DuluthGA »
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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: Great Question
« Reply #15 on: September 30, 2007, 05:27:16 AM »

What I find interesting Kat is that repentance is not the removal of the sin.

A person may repent of having lived a sinful life in the last breath of their life and still have to face the lake of fire. Just like a person can accept Christ and falsely believe they are saved by a sinners prayer.

We have to obey Christ and that is the fruit of repentance I believe.

As Ray notes : Ray http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,302.0.html

So there are four things that happen with sin:

1.   Committed
2.   Remitted
3.   Repented
4.   Removed


From the excerpt on the Kiss of Death teaching you posted Kat, I find it interesting to compare between Peter and Judas. Peter denied knowing Jesus. Judas used his knowledge of Jesus to betray Him. Is not Christiandom doing the same thing as Judas? I think it is. As for Peter, he was scared, humbled, cried bitterly and then was strengthened and regenerated by the Spirit of Christ. This same encounter with the Spirit of Christ caused much the same thing to  happen in the lives of Job, Isaiah  Peter and Saul.

Only the Spirit of Christ can defeat the Beast. Perhaps this is the meaning of John 16:33 I have told you these things, so that in Me you may have peace and confidence. In the world you have tribulation and trials and distress and frustration: but be of good cheer, take courage: be confident, certain,undaunted! For I have overcome the world.

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
« Last Edit: September 30, 2007, 05:39:47 AM by Arcturus »
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CEO

  • Guest
Re: Great Question
« Reply #16 on: October 01, 2007, 03:26:09 PM »

    I can see your insight and as usual from you it is strong. 

    Regarding Judas and the first resurrection my understanding is Judas did not receive the holy spirit in his life.  I do not think Judas was with the disciples when Jesus breathed on them the holy spirit.  I do not think Judas was at pentecost when the holy spirit came down as fire from the heavens.  Without the holy spirit we cannot be begotten or born again into the first resurrection.

                                        Askseeknock
                                        Charles
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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: Great Question
« Reply #17 on: October 01, 2007, 03:31:57 PM »

Thank you for adding that light to this discussion and building us all up in the Truth and Knowledge of Christ and His Spirit.

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
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Harryfeat

  • Guest
Re: Great Question
« Reply #18 on: October 07, 2007, 02:18:34 PM »

    I can see your insight and as usual from you it is strong. 

    Regarding Judas and the first resurrection my understanding is Judas did not receive the holy spirit in his life.  I do not think Judas was with the disciples when Jesus breathed on them the holy spirit.  I do not think Judas was at pentecost when the holy spirit came down as fire from the heavens.  Without the holy spirit we cannot be begotten or born again into the first resurrection.

                                        Askseeknock
                                        Charles

Hello Charles,

I has been a while.  All I can say is wow.  How disappointing for anyone, including Judas and us who were not at that meeting where the Christ "breathed on them the Holy Spirit."  Perhaps since we weren't there just as Judas was not there we also cannot "be born again into the first resurrection." I surely hope that you don't believe that. I don't

I see no real proof but only your opinion that Judas did not receive the Holy Spirit.  I do not disagree that he might not have received it.  I just see no proof that he didn't

Here is another piece of what I might consider more damaging evidence to consider:
Joh 17:10 And Mine all are Thine, and Thine Mine. And I have been glorified in them."
Joh 17:11 And no longer am I in the world, and they are in the world, and I to Thee am coming. Holy Father, keep them in Thy name, in which Thou hast given them to Me, that they may be one, according as We are."
Joh 17:12 When I was with them in the world, I kept those whom Thou hast given Me in Thy name, and I guard them, and not one of them perished, except the son of destruction, that the scripture may be fulfilled."



The judges in this case have still not convinced me that Judas will not be one one those in the "first" resurrection. He very well might not be. The judges and we also don't know for sure whether we will be so graced in His mercy.

Well, I guess I have seen the discussion, even added some damaging evidence of my own  and am not convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that the judges are right.  Even so, I still believe it is not their call to begin with.

be blessed
feat
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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: Great Question
« Reply #19 on: October 07, 2007, 03:17:09 PM »

Hello Harryfeat

I find it stange that you omit the following scripture in your sumation that says you find no proof that Judas did not recieve the Holy Spirit. Here is the proof. Here is Jesus Christ speaking to the Father....

  John 17 : 12  While I was with them I kept and preserved them in Your Name, in the knowledge and worship of You. THOSE YOU HAVE GIVEN ME I guarded ( Did not Jesus pray for Peter adivsing him that Satan desired to sift him like wheat but that He Jesus Had prayed for Peter? ) and protected (When Satan entered Judas did Jesus protect him? No. He bid him to do quickly what he had to do.) and not one of THEM has perished or is lost EXCEPT THE SON OF PERDITION JUDAS ISCARIOT  - the  one who is now doomed to destruction, destined to be lost, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

Jesus said it. It is true. Those who God gives, drags to Christ, are those God selects for Christ to conform to His image by and through His Spirit. Those who are NOT dragged or given to Christ BY GOD, (not given by the preacher, the Priest, an eleven second sinners prayer or the representitive of Harlot Babylon,) but given by God...are those for whom Jesus prayed.

I have no reason to believe that Judas will  not have to face the LOF White Throne judgment to be purified and sanctified and eventually saved. I bleive the proof of this is in the statements recorded for us in the word of God and spoken to God by Christ Himself.

Peace be to you
Arcturus
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