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Author Topic: Ambiguous "Law"  (Read 6808 times)

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Gregor

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Ambiguous "Law"
« on: September 29, 2007, 06:58:38 PM »

Greetings,

Please bear with me, as I'm not even sure where I'm going with this. But from the other threads I've learned that everyone's input has helped clarify things for me. Please feel free to reply.

I hear the word law used all over in the bible, but find that it is rather ambiguous. Sometimes it refers to the ten commandments. Sometimes it refers to the Laws of Moses, and sometimes it refers to the law of love. In Rom. 3:21 it also refers to the the "Law Giver." (But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets).  I'm not a scholar of biblical proportions by any means, but my understanding is that the Greek didn't use capitalization.? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Consider the following verses:

Rom.4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Rom.5:13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Sin was imputed to Adam long before the ten commandments, and long before the Laws of Moses. So I ask the question: Would God telling Adam (Gen 2:16,17) not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for in the day you shall eat of it you shall surely die, be considered the first law or principle of the law? Or just the first example of the law of the spirit? James 4:17 says "Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin." I see many "laws" in place, and I know the commandment "Love the Lord your God and your neighbor as yourself" sums up the Law and the Prophets.

I'm just fishing for some feedback. Any thoughts?
Thanks.
G.
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sonofone

  • Guest
Re: Ambiguous "Law"
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2007, 09:46:14 PM »

Hey I am sure you already know this but here is what I see. A short definition of sin is to miss,or come short of the mark. The mark of course is set by God. In the case of Adam the mark was to not eat from the tree of good and evil,as we know he came short of this mark so he sinned. Now from the time of Adam to Moses there were no ten commandments yet sin was in the world,that is to say mans carnal nature which is in itself at odds with the will of God was alive and well. The law became the mirror that revealed man's sinful nature or the nature that is at odds with the will of God.You are also right as to the wording of the law it does refer to different things st different times.
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YellowStone

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Re: Ambiguous "Law"
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2007, 09:48:42 PM »

Hi Greg,

You pose some very interesting questions here. I will tackle the one that questions whether one is sinning if one knows not what sin is or for that matter that the action is wrong. I agree with James; one can only be held accountable if they know that their actions are wrong. It seems very interesting to me that men and woman all over the world, regardless of race, creed or religion are all held by the same common moral standards. For example, I cannot name any where in the world where the common man lives outside any of the ten commandments.

So what exactly is the law that you speak of? Is it the laws that are mentioned in the Bible, or are they the ingrained laws that seem to be etched clearly on the hearts of all mankind?

Yet, even the answer to this question cannot truthfully be answered by any here, simply because since the coming of Christ who soley fulfilled the law (made everything completly unified) and the giving of the Spirit, which I believe resides now in the hearts of all. Surely at anytime since these two historic events, man has been judged to a higher standard that at anytime before. However, the Spirit does not reveal the same truths to everyone, nor in the same quantity or at the same time.

Whoa be to any who willfully sin, knowing that the action is wrong in their hearts and conscious (which I have always thought was an audible voice of the Spirit) Far be it from me to throw any stones or point any fingers; because the moment I point a single finger, I have four pointing back at me, and justifiably so, whoa is me. :(

Kind of sobering don't you think?  I hope this is where you were headed with this thread and this answered your questions in some way. :)

Love to you in Christ,
Darren
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Harryfeat

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Re: Ambiguous "Law"
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2007, 10:49:54 PM »

Greetings,

Please bear with me, as I'm not even sure where I'm going with this. But from the other threads I've learned that everyone's input has helped clarify things for me. Please feel free to reply.

I hear the word law used all over in the bible, but find that it is rather ambiguous. Sometimes it refers to the ten commandments. Sometimes it refers to the Laws of Moses, and sometimes it refers to the law of love. In Rom. 3:21 it also refers to the the "Law Giver." (But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets).  I'm not a scholar of biblical proportions by any means, but my understanding is that the Greek didn't use capitalization.? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Consider the following verses:

Rom.4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Rom.5:13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Sin was imputed to Adam long before the ten commandments, and long before the Laws of Moses. So I ask the question: Would God telling Adam (Gen 2:16,17) not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for in the day you shall eat of it you shall surely die, be considered the first law or principle of the law? Or just the first example of the law of the spirit? James 4:17 says "Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin." I see many "laws" in place, and I know the commandment "Love the Lord your God and your neighbor as yourself" sums up the Law and the Prophets.

I'm just fishing for some feedback. Any thoughts?
Thanks.
G.

Hello Gregor,

Not knowing what you are looking for I give you the following.

I believe that the commandment to Adam of Thou shalt not eat was the law.  After eating the fruit, Adam knew he was naked [had sinned].  Without the law we cannot recognize that we have sinned.

Rom 3:19 Now we are aware that, whatever the law is saying, it is speaking to those under the law, that every mouth may be barred, and the entire world may become subject to the just verdict of God,
Rom 3:20 because, by works of law, no flesh at all shall be justified in His sight, for through law is the recognition of sin."


I think we can safely say that the tree of knowledge of good and evil is a similitude of the law. Of course, you could also say it is a symbol of  death as contrasted with the tree of life.


After Adam left the garden, there was no law since the single law didn't apply.  That's where James comes in but there is no imputation of sin since the Mosaic law didn't come about as yet.  However, how will those from Adam to Mosaic law be judged for their sins?

What do you make of these rather enigmatic verses?

1Pe 3:18 seeing that Christ also, for our sakes, once died concerning sins, the just for the sake of the unjust, that He may be leading us to God; being put to death, indeed, in flesh, yet vivified in spirit,
1Pe 3:19 in which, being gone to the spirits in jail also,
1Pe 3:20 He heralds to those once stubborn, when the patience of God awaited in the days of Noah while the ark was being constructed, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were brought safely through water,


Do you think Jesus covered the bases for His judgment?



Since I am not sure what you are looking for I hope this helps you decide on a direction.

be blessed
feat
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Beloved

  • Guest
Re: Ambiguous "Law"
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2007, 11:14:33 PM »

Wow Darren that was a deep spirital metaphor

Far be it from me to throw any stones or point any fingers; because the moment I point a single finger, I have four pointing back at me, and justifiably so, whoa is me.    ;D   

I agree with you that mankind world wide was always aware of the basic concepts of law. I think however the observation of the law is always from a selfish prospective. i.e. You don't hurt someone because then someone can hurt you. The motivation is not the heart but the belly.

I see the law is any thing that is known by others that restrains your own will. In a way the law points out your selfishness. 

Look how quickly a child learns to say NO... and how they realish using this word once they learn it. Sometimes they get so enamoured with their power they will say no to something that they want.  :D

When only One law was given ....Adam and Eve looked to their own self for the answers.

Christ on the other hand as the perfect Adam...looked to the Father's will in every matter.

He experieinced all the same the tugs of the physical body (hunger thirst etc), but he was enabled by His spirit to always obey His Father Will  and therby He alone fulfilled the Laws "perfectly" not carnally.

In the spiritual the precepts commandments and laws all seem effortless because you understand the Father's Soverignty and there is no conflict.

The writer of Psalm 119 pleaded 176 times for spiritual wakening so he too could find this peace and contentment with the Law . This generation is blessed because Christ has now come in the flesh. Only through Christ can we be shown the Father's Will.


Beloved


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YellowStone

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Re: Ambiguous "Law"
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2007, 11:54:50 PM »

Hi Beloved, you wrote and I glady quote: :)

He experieinced all the same the tugs of the physical body (hunger thirst etc), but he was enabled by His spirit to always obey His Father Will  and therby He alone fulfilled the Laws "perfectly" not carnally.

This puts my failing in to perspective better than just about anything else I have ever read. I can simply do NOTHING on my own, and it is yet not God's will that I have full and unfettered access to the Spirit of all Truth.

Wonderfully said Beloved :)

Love in Christ,
Darren
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Gregor

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Re: Ambiguous "Law"
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2007, 06:38:52 AM »

Greetings all, and thank you so much for your posts. They've definately shed some light on what's going through my mind. I don't have time to address everything I'd like to right now, but for starters, here goes:

I especially liked the point about after Adam was kicked out of the garden, and before the Mosaic Laws, man was left to his own understanding as to how to conduct himself.

Psm. 81:12 So I gave them over to their own stubborn heart, to walk in their own counsels.

Psm.49:20 Man that is in honour, and understandeth not, is like the beasts that perish.
Psm.73:22 So foolish was I, and ignorant: I was as a beast before thee

Acts 14:16 who in bygone generations allowed all nations to walk in their own ways.

Mic 4:5 For all people walk each in the name of his god, but we will walk in the name of the Lord our God Forever and ever.

Amazing how I'm getting answers in this thread to questions I raised in other threads. It's all coming together for me now so beautifully. I listed the following citations, but only typed out the parts which are really grabbing my attention (otherwise I'd be typing out most of Romans) I'm amazed at how the eyes of my understanding are beginning to see the truth so clearly. Deep things of God. Wow. Scriptures are coming alive.
Rom 3:25b;5:12-21 because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,...Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned - For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come...Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life...Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

At the time of reckoning in Gen.3:14-19 God said to the serpent "YOU are cursed..." then to the woman (as yet unnamed by Adam until vs.20) "...greatly multiply your sorrow & conception...in pain...desire for your husband, he shall rule over you" and then to Adam "cursed is the ground for your sake...in toil...sweat of your face you shall eat..." It isn't until after Cain kills Able that God curses the individual in Gen.4:11 "YOU are cursed from the earth..." The punishment fits the crimes, getting worse each time (except for the serpent). It isn't until Gen.4:26 that men then began to call on the name of the Lord, approximately 235 yrs after the time Adam and Eve were kicked out of the garden till the generation of Enosh. After his generation we find many generations but only hear of Enoch walking with God, and he was not??? (condemned, or death did not reign over him) for God took him. Finally Noah shows up and finds grace in the eyes of God, unlike the rest of his generation. It is apparent that the spirit of God was present back in the days of old. I guess death reigned and man leaned on his own understanding and was like the beasts that perish, except for the few and the chosen who walked with God, and called on his name, and were saved in the ark. Oh how history repeats itself. So many types in the scriptures. 

So much to learn, so little time. Lord willing we'll talk more later. Thanks again to all. Sorry I couldn't go more into details.
Your Brother in Christ,
Greg
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Ambiguous "Law"
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2007, 08:33:37 AM »

Hello Greg.

Many principles, many parables all heading to one conclusion, Will, Law, Purpose that we may learn righteousness and come to know how to distinguish between good and evil "...until we all attain oneness in the faith and in the comprehension of the full and accurate knowledge of the Son of God, that we might arrive at really mature manhood, the completeness of personality which is nothing less than the standard height of Christ's own perfection, the measure of the stature of the fullness of the Christ and the completeness found in Him. Eph 4 : 13

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
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Gregor

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Re: Ambiguous "Law"
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2007, 01:28:10 PM »

Greetings Arcturus,
Gal.4:1,2 Now I say that the heir, as long as he is a child, does not differ at all from a slave, though he is master of all, but is under guardians and stewards until the appointed time by the father. Ah, the fun of growing up.  ;)

Peace to you.
G.
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Gregor

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Re: Ambiguous "Law"
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2007, 02:28:11 PM »

Greetings feat,
Quote:

What do you make of these rather enigmatic verses?

1Pe 3:18 seeing that Christ also, for our sakes, once died concerning sins, the just for the sake of the unjust, that He may be leading us to God; being put to death, indeed, in flesh, yet vivified in spirit,
1Pe 3:19 in which, being gone to the spirits in jail also,
1Pe 3:20 He heralds to those once stubborn, when the patience of God awaited in the days of Noah while the ark was being constructed, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were brought safely through water,

Do you think Jesus covered the bases for His judgment?

Answers: Reference Acts 12:11 as a type.
On the day of Judgement, Christ will judge both the living and the dead (1Pt.4:5) and I believe this refers to those who are resurrected as spiritually alive in Christ, and resurrected as spiritually dead in their unbelief. Those (the few) who have been made alive spiritually (freedom) through Christ have a good conscience  toward God (1Pt.3:21) unlike those (prisoners to the flesh) who died in the days of Noah (many unbelievers) who will be raised with the fearful expectation of punishment for their unbelief. But, 1Pt.4:6 according to men in the flesh, the expectation is no-mercy, death, but the reality will be spiritual life in God by His grace through Jesus - saviour of the world, of all man, especially those who believe.

No doubt that Jesus has His "bases covered"  ;D

Peace multiplied to you,
G.
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Harryfeat

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Re: Ambiguous "Law"
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2007, 04:03:41 PM »

Hello Gregor,

Thank you.

That was pretty good. 


I guess I was even more enigmatic than the verses.  ;)  I was asking something more specific which concerned the law when I was talking about covering the bases.


Why do you think that Jesus [between the crucifixion and resurrection]  went back to herald/preach to those who did not live under Mosaic law in Noah's time?

be blessed
feat
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Ambiguous "Law"
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2007, 05:20:32 PM »

The following study was posted into the Forum by one of the members namely nightmare sasuke,  last year in July. It helped me unravel the false teachings assumptions and unscriptural deceptions that I was snared into which are taught by Babylon. It helped to identify the truth from the lies.

We know that Jesus died and was dead but Babylon would falsly teach that when Jesus died, He was alive some place else! That is a false teaching.

Also it might help to bear in mind the Scripture that presents this truth from 1 Cor 10 : 4 And they all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from a spiritual Rock which followed them, and the rock WAS CHRIST.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1339.0.html


Here then is the study posted by nightmare sazuke quote:

Spirits in Prison

Some argue that death changed after Christ's resurrection and he freed or preached to the conscious deceased or, as some hypothesize, fallen angels. After all, Christ did preach to prisoners.

"By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison" (1Pe 3:19, KJV).

Many overlook the context of this verse and interpret the prison the verse speaks of to be what their preconceived ideas express. It is commonly reported that this prison is where Old Testament saints dwelled before being freed by Christ. However, this ignores the verse which comes right after.

"Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water" (1Pe 3:20, KJV).

These spirits were those who were disobedient during the days of Noah. If Christ literally preached to disembodied spirits, not only is there no mention of Christ releasing them, but these spirits exclude all others that were not disobedient during the days of Noah. Also, there is no logical explanation given by Peter as to why Jesus would waste time and preach to the disembodied spirits of those disobedient during the days of Noah and no one else.

Also, it must be noted that Christ was not made alive in Spirit (verse 18) until after resurrection (1Co 15:45), meaning for Christ to preach unto disembodied spirits, he would have to do so after being raised from the dead. However, there is no mention of a resurrected Christ preaching to disembodied spirits, and even if there was, it would not make logical sense for the spirits to be conscious to even hear Christ.

Not only this, but we cannot be certain that this is even a proper rendering of this verse. Thus, it is highly unsafe to base doctrine off this single verse, with uncertainty of its translation, especially while neglecting its usage. For example, Adam Clarke (1762–1832) in his Commentary on the Bible reports,

"But even on this word there are several various readings; some of the Greek MSS. read πνευματι, in spirit, and one πνευματι Αγιω, in the Holy Spirit. I have before me one of the first, if not the very first edition of the Latin Bible; and in it the verse stands thus: ...[translated] 'by which he came spiritually, and preached to them that were in prison.'

In two very ancient MSS. of the Vulgate before me, the clause is thus: ... [translated] 'in which, coming by the Spirit, he preached to those who were in prison.' This is the reading also in the Complutensian Polyglot. Another ancient MS. in my possession has the words nearly as in the printed copy: ... [translated] 'in which, coming spiritually, he preached to those who were Shut Up in prison.'

... In my old MS. Bible, which contains the first translation into English ever made, the clause is the following: In whiche thing and to hem that weren closid togyder in prison, hi commynge in Spirit, prechide. The copy from which this translation was taken evidently read conclusi erdnt, with one of the MSS. quoted above, as closid togyder proves.

I have quoted all these authorities from the most authentic and correct copies of the Vulgate, to show that from them there is no ground to believe that the text speaks of Christ’s going to hell to preach the Gospel to the damned, or of his going to some feigned place where the souls of the patriarchs were detained, to whom he preached, and whom he delivered from that place and took with him to paradise, which the Romish Church holds as an article of faith" (Adam Clarke's Commentary on the Bible).

The implications of these other renderings completely change the common interpretation. These renderings suggest Christ preached in Spirit, by the same Spirit that he was made alive in, which could mean he preached through Noah to those disobedient before the flood, which agrees with the views expressed by the Church Father Augustine, John Darby, John Gill, and Jamieson, Fausset and Brown.

Nevertheless, with the translation we are left with, correct or not correct, we must determine by use of contextual adhering and the avoiding of contradiction what this single verse means by aid of Scripture.

It first must be noted with the translation we are left with, despite the translations that differ, that even if Peter intended to refer to the prisoners as spirits, it is not unordinary. For example, John also refers to living mortals as spirits, when he says, "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits," in reference to the "many false prophets" who "are gone out into the world" (1Jo 4:1, KJV).

In fact, to interpret the spuriously translated verse to say that Christ spoke to disembodied spirits contradicts Solomon, who said when man dies "the spirit shall return unto God who gave it" (Ecc 12:7, KJV), whereas, there is no mention of disembodied spirits going to prison after death. Besides, Christ was in the heart of the earth three days and three nights, which did not include a prison.

Not to mention, the verse directly before it reads:

"Because, Christ also, once for all, concerning sins, died,—Just in behalf of unjust,—in order that he might introduce us unto God; being put to death, indeed, in flesh, but made alive in spirit" (1Pe 3:18, Rotherham).

We are told Christ was made alive in Spirit, then the next verse begins by saying, "In which, even unto the spirits in prison, he went and proclaimed" (1Pe 3:19, Rotherham). In which even, how?

The Greek words translated in which are en w. En means "A primary preposition denoting (fixed) position ... 'in', at, (up-) on, by, etc." (Strong G1722), translated by Rotherham, Young, and the CLV, in. W is defined as "the relative (sometimes demonstrative) pronoun, who, which, what, that" (Strong G3739), translated by Rotherham, Young, and the CLV, which. The word that comes after is kai, "Apparently a primary particle, having a copulative and sometimes also a cumulative force; and, also, even, so, then, too, etc." (Strong G2532), translated by Rotherham, even; Young, also; and the Concordant Literal Version, also.

Christ was made alive in Spirit, in which also he preached to prisoners. In other words, it was the same Spirit Christ was made alive in, by which he preached to prisoners. We are told that these prisoners lived in the days of Noah. Could it then be said, that by the same Spirit Christ was made alive in, is how also he preached to prisoners? How would this be? Simple.

"Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas" (Act 1:16, KJV).

"And they were not able to resist the wisdom and the spirit by which he spake" (Act 6:10, KJV).

"Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers" (Act 28:25, KJV).

"For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost" (2Pe 1:21, KJV).

It is the same Spirit, which was in Christ during his ministry, the same Spirit which made him alive after resurrection, and "the Spirit of Christ which was in them [the prophets]" (1Pe 1:11, KJV), by which Jesus Christ preached through Noah to prisoners. After all, by the same power Noah preached, so did Christ.

Not only this, but it was said by God that his "spirit shall not always strive with man" (Gen 6:3, KJV) in reference to the times of Noah. It was God's Spirit, the Spirit that dwells in Christ, that preached through Noah, the other Saints, and Christ himself. As John the Baptist "in the spirit and power of Elias, [went] to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children" (Luk 1:17), so also did Noah preach with the same Spirit and power as Christ, and Christ with the same Spirit and power as Noah. Just as John could be said to have preached to those Elijah preached to, by the same Spirit and power, so also can Christ said to have preached to those Noah preached to, for he did preach with the same Spirit and power during his ministry.

Though it depends on one's personal interpretation of the Godhead, there can be said to be two exact ways, based on Scripture, by which Jesus preached through Noah: one, if argued Christ consciously preexisted, he willed the Holy Spirit to speak on his behalf through Noah; two, the Holy Spirit, which spoke through Christ, also spoke through Noah, hence Christ preached through Noah in a figurative sense, much in the way the Spirit and power of Elijah was embodied in and through John the Baptist. Depending on one's beliefs, option one and two can work together. Nevertheless, one thing is clear: Christ, in some shape or form, whether consciously as a being, unconsciously as a force, or in a figurative sense representing his power and the Spirit that dwelled in him, preached through Noah.

With all this said, it then must be asked, what is prison? In the Scriptures, prison is used to signify three things.

[1] Being bound up in sin or being blind, i.e. ignorant of the things of the Spirit—soulish (e.g., Psa 142:7).

[2] Relating to chastisement, trial, or affliction (e.g., Gen 39:20, Luk 12:58).

[3] Literal prison, a place of literal containment (e.g., Act 8:3).

Of course, the meaning must be determined by the context of its usage. Prison may also be used to denote bondage in general, rather than specific bondage (e.g., Rev 20:7).

Peter's usage of prison relates to the disobedient in the days of Noah before the building of the Ark. Because the verse is speaking pre-flood, prison cannot denote number two, because the disobedient had not yet been chastised. Likewise, it could not refer to number three, because there is no mention of the disobedient being locked in literal prison. This leaves number one.

Prison, in this case, is used to personify the bondage of sin or the ignorance all are locked in before hearing and believing the Gospel.

"Bring my soul out of prison, that I may praise thy name: the righteous shall compass me about; for thou shalt deal bountifully with me" (Psa 142:7, KJV).

David was bound up sin because he "received not the promise" (Heb 11:39, KJV), was under the "the law [that] worketh wrath" (Rom 4:15, KJV), "the deeds of [which] there shall no flesh be justified in [God's] sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin" (Rom 3:20, KJV). David was bound in prison because Christ had not yet been sacrificed in place of "those sacrifices which they offered year by year" that "can never ... make the comers thereunto perfect" (Heb 10:1, KJV).

"But this is a people robbed and spoiled; they are all of them snared in holes, and they are hid in prison houses: they are for a prey, and none delivereth; for a spoil, and none saith, Restore" (Isa 42:22, KJV).

"That thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth; to them that are in darkness, Shew yourselves. They shall feed in the ways, and their pastures shall be in all high places" (Isa 49:9, KJV).

"To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house" (Isa 42:7, KJV).

In these above examples, prison refers to those that are "robbed and spoiled," and "in darkness," having "blind eyes"—bound in sin, ignorant to the Gospel.

This is also the case for those who were disobedient during the days of Noah. They were bound in sin, blind, and sitting in darkness. Light had come into their world and they refused it (Joh 3:19).

"The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind [e.g., Isa 42:7], to set at liberty them that are bruised" (Luk 4:18, KJV. Emphasis added).

Christ preached to prisoners during his earthly ministry in like manner to his spiritual preaching through Noah. These were "captives" of sin.

In short, Christ, one way or another, by Spirit, preached through Noah to those bound by sin, who were blinded with darkness, and disobedient while the Ark was a preparing.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2007, 05:36:27 PM by Arcturus »
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Gregor

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Re: Ambiguous "Law"
« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2007, 07:43:09 PM »

Great post Arcturus! I could never have expressed what I meant as well as that. I truly agree that the "prison" referred to is the definition: [1] Being bound up in sin or being blind, i.e. ignorant of the things of the Spirit—soulish (e.g., Psa 142:7), which I called the spiritually dead and was trying to convey in my last post.

Feat,

I think you misunderstood, or missed my meaning altogether. I don't believe Christ went anywhere to preach between his cruxifiction and resurrection. I agree with the idea that it is the same Spirit of God who spoke to them through Noah back in his day (although I didn't think of it like that when I posted). Furthermore, I think that when those captive (imprisoned) souls are raised  on the Day of Judgement (in the end), that they will be considered as the "dead" that are referred to in 1Pt.4:5 and at that time, will come to KNOW the Truth (Jesus):

Isa.40:21 Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth? (implies preaching)

Maybe re-read my post in light of this and the post Arcturus just posted. As for the legal answer to the "bases covered" question, might I suggest reading Rom.5:12-21, paying specific attention to verses 15-18. Finally, 1Tim.4:10 "For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe." When I referred to Herod and all the Jews, I was trying to give an example of how carnal man expects the worst for the prisoner. Jesus changes our expectations, be it now through faith, or later through the LOF. Hopefully that will clear up the misunderstandings.
Your bro in Christ,
G.


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Harryfeat

  • Guest
Re: Ambiguous "Law"
« Reply #13 on: September 30, 2007, 08:54:32 PM »

Hello Gregor,

As I said in my last post, I thought your answer was pretty good.  What I couldn't tell was how you viewed or interpreted the Christ preaching part. Since you didn't address it specifically.   Most people get confused with this and it seems to sink in better if they hash it around and try to figure it out rather than being told outright.  We are in sync. bro.


Thanks Arcturus for bringing Nightmare's post forward. Your thoughtfulness in doing so is much appreciated.  I had not seen it before and it does a fairly good job of laying things out. 

be blessed.
feat


« Last Edit: October 01, 2007, 12:28:16 AM by Harryfeat »
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Gregor

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Re: Ambiguous "Law"
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2007, 03:08:34 AM »

Greetings feat,
Just found this scripture tonight, which gives a clear witness to the preaching aspect and correlates with the article Arcturus posted:

1Pet.1:10,11 NKJV, "Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow."

Glad to see we're all in one accord. Thanks again.
Blessings.
G.
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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: Ambiguous "Law"
« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2007, 03:08:38 PM »

It gives me great joy to be part of this unity in faith.

Peace to you brothers, Gregor and Feat.

Arcturus :)
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