Show me Your glory

[Gregor]

Greetings,
I've just read Exodus chpt.33.
In vs.11a "So the Lord spoke to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend" (Albeit through the pillar of cloud). Then later, in Exodus 33:18, Moses says to the Lord, "Please, show me Your glory." What does this really mean? In vs.20 the Lord replies, "You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live." The Lord then passes by and allows Moses to see His back, and Moses skin (face) glows afterwards, so much that he ends up wearing a veil. In John 1:18 it says, "No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him." Any thoughts??
G.

[Kat]

Hi Gregor,

Ray got into this whole thing about has anybody ever seen or heard His voice, at the Nashville conference.  There are a no. of scripture that indicate that God spoke and the scripture you brought up about Moses seeing God's back parts.
Here is excerpts from the Nashville conference about this in particular, but you will want to listen to the rest of the audio for all the details, http://bible-truths.com/audio/Nashville07_4.mp3 (audio)

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.msg38211.html#msg38211 (transcript)------

One of the most powerful things we have to learn in the scripture is that no man has ever seen God or heard His voice.  You have just got to believe that!  It says that over and over, so you got to believe it.  If you don't, well then you will think Jehovah is God the Father and you will have all these crazy things, that aren't true.  It's a major truth.  We have to find out who the God of the Bible is.  "No man hath seen God at any time;"(John 1:18)  Is that clear.

John 5:37  "And the Father Himself that sent Me, He hath borne witness of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His shape."

1 John 4:12  "No man hath beheld God at any time..."

There it is again.  So when Abraham entertained 3 'men' and Jacob wrestled with this 'man' he said, "I've seen God face to face, and lived to tell about it." (Gen. 32:30).  He did not see God the Father and I don't believe he saw Jesus Christ, either.  He saw a representative from God, in the form of a man.  It was a man.  And yes it was sent from God and it was all powerful and all that.  But it plainly says, it was a man, in all those cases it says it was a man.  It's the same word man, when it says woman was taken from 'man' aw-dawm' (Gen. 2: 23). 

Once you learn a spiritual truth, don't ever let it go.  If you haven't learned it yet, you tend to be a little wishy washy.  But once you learn it, don't ever let it go.
v
v
v
The Word of God, that is the Word - Logos - Spokesman, ok.  Jesus Christ has a name on His side (Revelation 19) and that name is, "the Word of God."  Jesus Christ is the Word - Spokesman - Logos - representative - messenger of God.  Because nobody has ever heard God or seen Him.  So if God wants to convey something to the human race, He does it through His Word - His Spokesman - His Messenger - His Logos - Jesus Christ.  Now in Genesis how do we know that it's not God the Father speaking, because no one has ever heard His voice or seen His shape for that matter. So when ever you hear a voice, it's not God, well....not exactly. 

[5] How can we be absolutely sure that this is not the Father speaking in Genesis? Answer: "And the Father Himself, which has sent Me, has born witness of Me. Ye have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His shape" (John 5:37). Did Moses hear God's voice?  Answer: "Did ever people hear the voice of GOD speaking out of the midst of the fire, as you have heard, and live?" (Deut. 4:33). Did Moses see the shape of God? "you shall SEE MY BACK PARTS." (Exodus 33:18-23). This is Jesus.
--------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Gregor]

Greetings Kat,
I understand that no one has actually seen/heard God physically, audibley, and that's not what I'm asking. I realize that the Lord of the OT is Jesus of the NT, but in a different form. I'm really wondering about the significance of "glory"? What is it? How do we define it? It must be more than just the brightness of light. The term "face to face as friends" obviously must also have a meaning/implication other than literal. I think it must have something to do with flesh vs. spirit - waring against eachother and incompatible, leading to the need for sanctification.

I will be doing some more reading of Ray's teaching that you linked. Thanks. I think Ray may be on to something in the concept of God having to "become" who He is through suffering. I have always wondered if the Genesis reference to "darkness was on the face of the deep" wasn't in reference to God being sad before Jesus was born, and that God too had revelation of the way, truth, and light. It probably was sad/painful having to first be alone, and then go through the birthing process, but keeping his eye on the prize ahead, pressed on. At this point I'm just hypothesising, so I guess I'll need to do more studying/praying.
G.

[DuluthGA]

Say G,

Are you acquainted with the Hebrew term "Shekinah" glory?  Just sketchy info here... this Hebrew word is not scriptural itself but has a couple of scriptural Hebrew derivatives when describing God's physical presence showing forth.... that are in feminine word forms and hence the feminine Hebrew (full) term 'Shekinah' came into use (I presume orally at first) to describe all the (several) times God's glory became manifest in the O.T.  You can learn a bunch with a net search on this.  Perhaps someone here can expound, and I can re-research to pull up these "couple of scriptural word derivatives" and which verses they appear.

I was happy to learn of this at the time I was researching it because to me it indicates through God's own Word that He, at least in a teeny weeny little bit refers to Himself [His presence and glory] in the (Hebrew) feminine.  Might work on it tomorrow if the situation warrants.

I find God 'having emotions' an interesting topic, but I do not wish to thwart the intent of your thread.

Janice

.....  I just checked and I did keep a special link to this Shekinah reference from a Hebrew publishing company if need be or anyone desires.  I make no claims to it's validity and certainly wish to not teach anyone anything directly or even indirectly if it does not meet within the parameters of this forum.

[Gregor]

Greetings,

One thing I am looking at is that "glory" has a definate connection to "honour." This is connected to love.  Friends communicate, commune, etc. face to face. This is good. They seek out eachother's face, company, countenance, etc. But, when there is a heirarchy seperation - two, division, rather than "oneness" and equality - there can be problems, and a lack of love. Pride and Respect come into play. Relationship is brought into question. And, when one is higher esteemed, the face shows it, chin-up, head held high. The one who is of lower esteem is the opposite, eyes to the ground, face hidden. People of high esteem are often sought after, whereas people of low esteem are often shunned. Rivalries develop. Enemies are born.

Ex.33:20 the Lord replies, "You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live."

Job 13:24 "Why do you hide your face and regard me as your enemy?"

Gen.9:21-27 NKJV:
21.Then he drank of the wine and was drunk and became uncovered in his tent.
22.And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brothers outside.
23. But Shem and Japheth took a garment, laid it on both their shoulders, and went backward and covered the nakedness of their father. Their faces were turned away, and they did not see their father's nakedness.
24. So Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done to him.
25. Then he said: "Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants He shall be to his brethren"
26. And he said : "Blessed be the Lord, The God of Shem, and may Canaan be his servant.
27. May God enlarge Japheth, and may he dwell in the tents of Shem; and may Canaan be his servant."

Shem and Japheth received the blessing, as did their children, and they all remained together as one family, whereas Ham and his seed (Canaan) were cursed and reduced to servants. (also see Gal.4:1-9.)

I see God hiding his "face" or "glory" from us as a blessing, an act of love. God loves his enemies. He does this as reaching out to us. He doesn't want us to perish, but to live, to become one with Him in Spirit. God also covers us while covering His own eyes (giving us honour, respect). He loved us while we were yet enemies - slaves to the lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, and the pride of life - our nakedness, our shame.

By the Grace of God, in and through Jesus, the Glory of God is revealed - Love covering the offense and reconcilling enemies.

1Cor.13:12,13 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known. And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

More later (I'm still reading the Ray links), thanks Kat and Janice. Love & prayers,
G.

[Gregor]

I was happy to learn of this at the time I was researching it because to me it indicates through God's own Word that He, at least in a teeny weeny little bit refers to Himself [His presence and glory] in the (Hebrew) feminine.  Might work on it tomorrow if the situation warrants.

Gal.4:19 "My little children, for whom I labor in birth again, until Christ is born in you,"

Paul does it too. 

G.

[DuluthGA]

Kewl, thanks G.

Also, as an aside, researching the words Old Testament, Sophia, and wisdom is interesting as well.

Anyway, back to your very good thread on God's GLORY....