> General Discussions

Ambiguous "Law"

<< < (3/4) > >>

Harryfeat:
Hello Gregor,

Thank you.

That was pretty good. 


I guess I was even more enigmatic than the verses.  ;)  I was asking something more specific which concerned the law when I was talking about covering the bases.


Why do you think that Jesus [between the crucifixion and resurrection]  went back to herald/preach to those who did not live under Mosaic law in Noah's time?

be blessed
feat

Deborah-Leigh:
The following study was posted into the Forum by one of the members namely nightmare sasuke,  last year in July. It helped me unravel the false teachings assumptions and unscriptural deceptions that I was snared into which are taught by Babylon. It helped to identify the truth from the lies.

We know that Jesus died and was dead but Babylon would falsly teach that when Jesus died, He was alive some place else! That is a false teaching.

Also it might help to bear in mind the Scripture that presents this truth from 1 Cor 10 : 4 And they all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from a spiritual Rock which followed them, and the rock WAS CHRIST.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1339.0.html


Here then is the study posted by nightmare sazuke quote:

Spirits in Prison

Some argue that death changed after Christ's resurrection and he freed or preached to the conscious deceased or, as some hypothesize, fallen angels. After all, Christ did preach to prisoners.

"By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison" (1Pe 3:19, KJV).

Many overlook the context of this verse and interpret the prison the verse speaks of to be what their preconceived ideas express. It is commonly reported that this prison is where Old Testament saints dwelled before being freed by Christ. However, this ignores the verse which comes right after.

"Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water" (1Pe 3:20, KJV).

These spirits were those who were disobedient during the days of Noah. If Christ literally preached to disembodied spirits, not only is there no mention of Christ releasing them, but these spirits exclude all others that were not disobedient during the days of Noah. Also, there is no logical explanation given by Peter as to why Jesus would waste time and preach to the disembodied spirits of those disobedient during the days of Noah and no one else.

Also, it must be noted that Christ was not made alive in Spirit (verse 18) until after resurrection (1Co 15:45), meaning for Christ to preach unto disembodied spirits, he would have to do so after being raised from the dead. However, there is no mention of a resurrected Christ preaching to disembodied spirits, and even if there was, it would not make logical sense for the spirits to be conscious to even hear Christ.

Not only this, but we cannot be certain that this is even a proper rendering of this verse. Thus, it is highly unsafe to base doctrine off this single verse, with uncertainty of its translation, especially while neglecting its usage. For example, Adam Clarke (1762–1832) in his Commentary on the Bible reports,

"But even on this word there are several various readings; some of the Greek MSS. read πνευματι, in spirit, and one πνευματι Αγιω, in the Holy Spirit. I have before me one of the first, if not the very first edition of the Latin Bible; and in it the verse stands thus: ...[translated] 'by which he came spiritually, and preached to them that were in prison.'

In two very ancient MSS. of the Vulgate before me, the clause is thus: ... [translated] 'in which, coming by the Spirit, he preached to those who were in prison.' This is the reading also in the Complutensian Polyglot. Another ancient MS. in my possession has the words nearly as in the printed copy: ... [translated] 'in which, coming spiritually, he preached to those who were Shut Up in prison.'

... In my old MS. Bible, which contains the first translation into English ever made, the clause is the following: In whiche thing and to hem that weren closid togyder in prison, hi commynge in Spirit, prechide. The copy from which this translation was taken evidently read conclusi erdnt, with one of the MSS. quoted above, as closid togyder proves.

I have quoted all these authorities from the most authentic and correct copies of the Vulgate, to show that from them there is no ground to believe that the text speaks of Christ’s going to hell to preach the Gospel to the damned, or of his going to some feigned place where the souls of the patriarchs were detained, to whom he preached, and whom he delivered from that place and took with him to paradise, which the Romish Church holds as an article of faith" (Adam Clarke's Commentary on the Bible).

The implications of these other renderings completely change the common interpretation. These renderings suggest Christ preached in Spirit, by the same Spirit that he was made alive in, which could mean he preached through Noah to those disobedient before the flood, which agrees with the views expressed by the Church Father Augustine, John Darby, John Gill, and Jamieson, Fausset and Brown.

Nevertheless, with the translation we are left with, correct or not correct, we must determine by use of contextual adhering and the avoiding of contradiction what this single verse means by aid of Scripture.

It first must be noted with the translation we are left with, despite the translations that differ, that even if Peter intended to refer to the prisoners as spirits, it is not unordinary. For example, John also refers to living mortals as spirits, when he says, "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits," in reference to the "many false prophets" who "are gone out into the world" (1Jo 4:1, KJV).

In fact, to interpret the spuriously translated verse to say that Christ spoke to disembodied spirits contradicts Solomon, who said when man dies "the spirit shall return unto God who gave it" (Ecc 12:7, KJV), whereas, there is no mention of disembodied spirits going to prison after death. Besides, Christ was in the heart of the earth three days and three nights, which did not include a prison.

Not to mention, the verse directly before it reads:

"Because, Christ also, once for all, concerning sins, died,—Just in behalf of unjust,—in order that he might introduce us unto God; being put to death, indeed, in flesh, but made alive in spirit" (1Pe 3:18, Rotherham).

We are told Christ was made alive in Spirit, then the next verse begins by saying, "In which, even unto the spirits in prison, he went and proclaimed" (1Pe 3:19, Rotherham). In which even, how?

The Greek words translated in which are en w. En means "A primary preposition denoting (fixed) position ... 'in', at, (up-) on, by, etc." (Strong G1722), translated by Rotherham, Young, and the CLV, in. W is defined as "the relative (sometimes demonstrative) pronoun, who, which, what, that" (Strong G3739), translated by Rotherham, Young, and the CLV, which. The word that comes after is kai, "Apparently a primary particle, having a copulative and sometimes also a cumulative force; and, also, even, so, then, too, etc." (Strong G2532), translated by Rotherham, even; Young, also; and the Concordant Literal Version, also.

Christ was made alive in Spirit, in which also he preached to prisoners. In other words, it was the same Spirit Christ was made alive in, by which he preached to prisoners. We are told that these prisoners lived in the days of Noah. Could it then be said, that by the same Spirit Christ was made alive in, is how also he preached to prisoners? How would this be? Simple.

"Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas" (Act 1:16, KJV).

"And they were not able to resist the wisdom and the spirit by which he spake" (Act 6:10, KJV).

"Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers" (Act 28:25, KJV).

"For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost" (2Pe 1:21, KJV).

It is the same Spirit, which was in Christ during his ministry, the same Spirit which made him alive after resurrection, and "the Spirit of Christ which was in them [the prophets]" (1Pe 1:11, KJV), by which Jesus Christ preached through Noah to prisoners. After all, by the same power Noah preached, so did Christ.

Not only this, but it was said by God that his "spirit shall not always strive with man" (Gen 6:3, KJV) in reference to the times of Noah. It was God's Spirit, the Spirit that dwells in Christ, that preached through Noah, the other Saints, and Christ himself. As John the Baptist "in the spirit and power of Elias, [went] to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children" (Luk 1:17), so also did Noah preach with the same Spirit and power as Christ, and Christ with the same Spirit and power as Noah. Just as John could be said to have preached to those Elijah preached to, by the same Spirit and power, so also can Christ said to have preached to those Noah preached to, for he did preach with the same Spirit and power during his ministry.

Though it depends on one's personal interpretation of the Godhead, there can be said to be two exact ways, based on Scripture, by which Jesus preached through Noah: one, if argued Christ consciously preexisted, he willed the Holy Spirit to speak on his behalf through Noah; two, the Holy Spirit, which spoke through Christ, also spoke through Noah, hence Christ preached through Noah in a figurative sense, much in the way the Spirit and power of Elijah was embodied in and through John the Baptist. Depending on one's beliefs, option one and two can work together. Nevertheless, one thing is clear: Christ, in some shape or form, whether consciously as a being, unconsciously as a force, or in a figurative sense representing his power and the Spirit that dwelled in him, preached through Noah.

With all this said, it then must be asked, what is prison? In the Scriptures, prison is used to signify three things.

[1] Being bound up in sin or being blind, i.e. ignorant of the things of the Spirit—soulish (e.g., Psa 142:7).

[2] Relating to chastisement, trial, or affliction (e.g., Gen 39:20, Luk 12:58).

[3] Literal prison, a place of literal containment (e.g., Act 8:3).

Of course, the meaning must be determined by the context of its usage. Prison may also be used to denote bondage in general, rather than specific bondage (e.g., Rev 20:7).

Peter's usage of prison relates to the disobedient in the days of Noah before the building of the Ark. Because the verse is speaking pre-flood, prison cannot denote number two, because the disobedient had not yet been chastised. Likewise, it could not refer to number three, because there is no mention of the disobedient being locked in literal prison. This leaves number one.

Prison, in this case, is used to personify the bondage of sin or the ignorance all are locked in before hearing and believing the Gospel.

"Bring my soul out of prison, that I may praise thy name: the righteous shall compass me about; for thou shalt deal bountifully with me" (Psa 142:7, KJV).

David was bound up sin because he "received not the promise" (Heb 11:39, KJV), was under the "the law [that] worketh wrath" (Rom 4:15, KJV), "the deeds of [which] there shall no flesh be justified in [God's] sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin" (Rom 3:20, KJV). David was bound in prison because Christ had not yet been sacrificed in place of "those sacrifices which they offered year by year" that "can never ... make the comers thereunto perfect" (Heb 10:1, KJV).

"But this is a people robbed and spoiled; they are all of them snared in holes, and they are hid in prison houses: they are for a prey, and none delivereth; for a spoil, and none saith, Restore" (Isa 42:22, KJV).

"That thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth; to them that are in darkness, Shew yourselves. They shall feed in the ways, and their pastures shall be in all high places" (Isa 49:9, KJV).

"To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house" (Isa 42:7, KJV).

In these above examples, prison refers to those that are "robbed and spoiled," and "in darkness," having "blind eyes"—bound in sin, ignorant to the Gospel.

This is also the case for those who were disobedient during the days of Noah. They were bound in sin, blind, and sitting in darkness. Light had come into their world and they refused it (Joh 3:19).

"The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind [e.g., Isa 42:7], to set at liberty them that are bruised" (Luk 4:18, KJV. Emphasis added).

Christ preached to prisoners during his earthly ministry in like manner to his spiritual preaching through Noah. These were "captives" of sin.

In short, Christ, one way or another, by Spirit, preached through Noah to those bound by sin, who were blinded with darkness, and disobedient while the Ark was a preparing.

Gregor:
Great post Arcturus! I could never have expressed what I meant as well as that. I truly agree that the "prison" referred to is the definition: [1] Being bound up in sin or being blind, i.e. ignorant of the things of the Spirit—soulish (e.g., Psa 142:7), which I called the spiritually dead and was trying to convey in my last post.

Feat,

I think you misunderstood, or missed my meaning altogether. I don't believe Christ went anywhere to preach between his cruxifiction and resurrection. I agree with the idea that it is the same Spirit of God who spoke to them through Noah back in his day (although I didn't think of it like that when I posted). Furthermore, I think that when those captive (imprisoned) souls are raised  on the Day of Judgement (in the end), that they will be considered as the "dead" that are referred to in 1Pt.4:5 and at that time, will come to KNOW the Truth (Jesus):

Isa.40:21 Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth? (implies preaching)

Maybe re-read my post in light of this and the post Arcturus just posted. As for the legal answer to the "bases covered" question, might I suggest reading Rom.5:12-21, paying specific attention to verses 15-18. Finally, 1Tim.4:10 "For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe." When I referred to Herod and all the Jews, I was trying to give an example of how carnal man expects the worst for the prisoner. Jesus changes our expectations, be it now through faith, or later through the LOF. Hopefully that will clear up the misunderstandings.
Your bro in Christ,
G.

Harryfeat:
Hello Gregor,

As I said in my last post, I thought your answer was pretty good.  What I couldn't tell was how you viewed or interpreted the Christ preaching part. Since you didn't address it specifically.   Most people get confused with this and it seems to sink in better if they hash it around and try to figure it out rather than being told outright.  We are in sync. bro.


Thanks Arcturus for bringing Nightmare's post forward. Your thoughtfulness in doing so is much appreciated.  I had not seen it before and it does a fairly good job of laying things out. 

be blessed.
feat

Gregor:
Greetings feat,
Just found this scripture tonight, which gives a clear witness to the preaching aspect and correlates with the article Arcturus posted:

1Pet.1:10,11 NKJV, "Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow."

Glad to see we're all in one accord. Thanks again.
Blessings.
G.

Navigation

[0] Message Index

[#] Next page

[*] Previous page