Is this judgeing?

[rocky]

Mat 3:17  And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

When did the Father pronounce him "beloved Son"

before of after  he was led into the wilderness to be tried and tempted.


Mat 4:1  Then was Jesus led up of the spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

Heb 5:8  Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

Gal 3:14  That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Gal 4:6  And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.


And here, Paul addresses carnal Christians as bretheren:

1Co 3:3  For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

1Co 1:10  Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

1Co 1:11  For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.

1Co 1:12  Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

1Co 1:13  Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

1Co 1:26  For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

1Co 1:30  But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

1Co 2:1  And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.

1Co 3:1  And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

Gal 3:10  For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Gal 3:11  But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Gal 3:13  Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Gal 4:7  Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

Gal 3:7  Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Please tell me how Jesus could be a "son" before being tested in the wilderness, and before proving his faith.

Please tell me how Paul could address carnal Christians as bretheren, despite being carnal.  


1Jo 5:4  For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.


We are an heir by faith, not by works of the law.  To me this is the dividing point between bretheren vs non bretheren.  We are stil bretheren before and during the wilderness trial if we have faith in the cross, not in the works of the law;

IMO, God doesn't require us to be fully mature before we are brothers.  

[lilitalienboi16]

Mat 3:17  And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

When did the Father pronounce him "beloved Son"

before of after  he was led into the wilderness to be tried and tempted.


Mat 4:1  Then was Jesus led up of the spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

Heb 5:8  Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

Gal 3:14  That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Gal 4:6  And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.


And here, Paul addresses carnal Christians as bretheren:

1Co 3:3  For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

1Co 1:10  Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

1Co 1:11  For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.

1Co 1:12  Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

1Co 1:13  Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

1Co 1:26  For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

1Co 1:30  But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

1Co 2:1  And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.

1Co 3:1  And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

Gal 3:10  For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Gal 3:11  But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Gal 3:13  Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Gal 4:7  Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

Gal 3:7  Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Please tell me how Jesus could be a "son" before being tested in the wilderness, and before proving his faith.

Please tell me how Paul could address carnal Christians as bretheren, despite being carnal.  


1Jo 5:4  For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.


We are an heir by faith, not by works of the law.  To me this is the dividing point between bretheren vs non bretheren.  We are stil bretheren before and during the wilderness trial if we have faith in the cross, not in the works of the law;

IMO, God doesn't require us to be fully mature before we are brothers.  

Yea but rocky it's not as black and white as you make it seem.

There are the scriptures in which Christ called 'THE JEWS THAT BELIEVED ON HIM' of their father THE DEVIL.

Who are the 'jews that believed on him' today? Christ does not change. Is it not christendom, that believes on Christ, yet cries 'crucify him' at every turn? I'm not saying we are any better people of our own, but i think God has called us out of this darkness, so that we are not apart of it.

So are they are bretheren, or are they of the devil? You see what i'm saying? It's not so black and white, atleast to me it isn't. I guess i just need to prayu about this a whole lot.

God bless and thanks for your imput,

Alex

[rocky]

Again, how could Paul call carnal Christians bretheren??

[lilitalienboi16]

Again, how could Paul call carnal Christians bretheren??

I really don't know.. i wish i had the answers.. i'm gonna pray. Perhaps you do. God bless you for that, for me, i just need to pray and perhaps you could pray for me as well.

God bless,

Alex

[rocky]

Again, how could Paul call carnal Christians bretheren??

I really don't know.. i wish i had the answers.. i'm gonna pray. Perhaps you do. God bless you for that, for me, i just need to pray and perhaps you could pray for me as well.

God bless,

Alex

1Jo 5:4  For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

[rocky]

Gal 3:2  This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Gal 4:6  And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

[rocky]

Rom 8:15  For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Gal 4:3  Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

Gal 4:9  But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Gal 4:24  Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which engendereth to bondage, which is Hagar.

Gal 4:25  For this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

cursed is everyone that hangs onto the works of the law. 

1Jo 5:4  For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

[sonofone]

If you read my post about the church being the Mother you have no argument from me Rocky.

[rocky]

Yea but rocky it's not as black and white as you make it seem.

Alex

Hi Alex, i've been thinking about this throughout the day, and this verse came to my mind.

Rom 10:9  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Rom 10:10  For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

I agree, it's not black and white from an external viewpoint, but from an individual standpoint, it's what's in the heart that counts. 

what does one have to believe in their heart in order to be saved??  God hath raised him from the dead. 

I don't believe one has to be mature, and at that point have a heart change.

It is pretty black and white to me, "believe in your heart that God has raised HIM from the dead"

Maturity comes from suffering, trials, and our walk in the wilderness. 

And yes, many will die in the wilderness, not stay faithful and be found naked at the Day of the Lord, rather than clothed with Him. 

Rev 3:18  I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eye salve, that thou mayest see.

For me, when the heart change has occurred, these are the internal results:

Gal 4:6  And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Rom 8:15  For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

[LittleBear]

Hi Moises,

Yes, I think that God can change anybody's mind anytime anywhere. Sometimes we think that He really needs us to do something for this to be accomplished, and He does use us. But like Paul changed his mind in two seconds, God can do the same for anyone else. For me, it takes the pressure and the burden off my shoulders and I can relax knowing God is in control. I have a hard time remembering scriptures, and can't debate well or even present my thoughts, especially if I'm nervous. But I guess God uses me in other ways.

So I really admire those who can debate well and know how to teach, and God uses them in this capacity. I'm sure many people get blessed by the people on the forum.

Ursula

[Kat]

Hi Rocky,

Please tell me how Jesus could be a "son" before being tested in the wilderness, and before proving his faith.  

I don't think Jesus had to prove anything to be considered the Son of God, He was the Son of the Most High by being born of the Holy Spirit.  He always Referred to God as His Father, while on earth, even as a child He referred to God as His Father.

Luke 2:49  And He said to them, Why did you look for Me? Do you not know that I must be about My Father's business?

John 6:32  Then Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Moses did not give you that bread from Heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from Heaven.

Mat 12:50  For whoever shall do the will of My Father in Heaven, the same is My brother and sister and mother.

Please tell me how Paul could address carnal Christians as bretheren, despite being carnal.

Col 1:23  .....of which I, Paul, became a minister,
v. 24  who now rejoice in my sufferings on your behalf, and I fill up the things lacking of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh, on behalf of His body, which is the church;
v. 25  of which I became a minister, according to the administration of God given to me for you, to fulfill the Word of God;

He wrote those letters to the people that He and the other Apostles had taught the truth and were continuing to minister to them.  These were those scattered groups of brethren he was ministering to by sending them these letters, and I would think there were babes that were yet carnal in these groups.  

1Co 3:3  For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

But in this scripture, I think Paul is asking a sarcastic question, because this is not what they should be doing.
A few scriptures down he ask another question, saying they should be living right if the Holy Spirit is indwelling or God will deal with them.  

1Co 3:16  Do you not know that you are a temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
v. 17  If anyone defiles the temple of God, God shall destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which you are.

Just the way I see this in the scripture.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[lilitalienboi16]

Hello Kat,

I wanted to thank you for what you posted.

To rocky;

I wanted to be honost and say that what you are telling me, is not going well with the spirit inside me.

I just can't see how those who preach a Christ who will eternaly torture most of His creation are my 'brothers and sisters.' This isn't even the Christ of the gospel, and as kat said, i felt that those whom paul was calling bretheren in the scriptures were for the called AND chosen and not decieved carnal minded christians.

I just don't know how you would explain Christ calling the jews that believed on him, OF THE DEVIL. I mean.. isn't that alittle judgemental of Jesus if they are His brothers and sisters?

I might be wrong for saying this, and if i am then somebody let me know, but i feel that those who preach this get rich burn the unbelievers god of christendom are of the devil and speak lies...

I'm not trying to say i'm better then them, i know its because of God and His mercy, but does that mean i should lie and pertended as though they are my brother and sisters when they certainly don't believe in the same Jesus that i do?

I just don't understand.. you can't have a Christ that is gonna BURN EVERYONE and a Christ that is gonna SAVE EVERYONE. Which Jesus do you follow? Who follows that Jesus? Are not those that follow the Jesus CHrist you do, which is hopefully the one whom died to show the his love for all his creation and whom will one day save all them, are they not your brothers and sisters and not these other people who worship this other god made up in there own minds?

God forgive me if i am deeply mistaken, a blind man cannot see his own steps, so if i am misguided here then Lord show me the light.

God bless ,
Alex

[rocky]

Hello Kat,

I wanted to thank you for what you posted.

To rocky;

I wanted to be honost and say that what you are telling me, is not going well with the spirit inside me.

I just can't see how those who preach a Christ who will eternaly torture most of His creation are my 'brothers and sisters.' This isn't even the Christ of the gospel, and as kat said, i felt that those whom paul was calling bretheren in the scriptures were for the called AND chosen and not decieved carnal minded christians.

I just don't know how you would explain Christ calling the jews that believed on him, OF THE DEVIL. I mean.. isn't that alittle judgemental of Jesus if they are His brothers and sisters?

I might be wrong for saying this, and if i am then somebody let me know, but i feel that those who preach this get rich burn the unbelievers god of christendom are of the devil and speak lies...

I'm not trying to say i'm better then them, i know its because of God and His mercy, but does that mean i should lie and pertended as though they are my brother and sisters when they certainly don't believe in the same Jesus that i do?

I just don't understand.. you can't have a Christ that is gonna BURN EVERYONE and a Christ that is gonna SAVE EVERYONE. Which Jesus do you follow? Who follows that Jesus? Are not those that follow the Jesus CHrist you do, which is hopefully the one whom died to show the his love for all his creation and whom will one day save all them, are they not your brothers and sisters and not these other people who worship this other god made up in there own minds?

God forgive me if i am deeply mistaken, a blind man cannot see his own steps, so if i am misguided here then Lord show me the light.

God bless ,
Alex

Hi Alex, thank you for your honesty, and I definitely could be wrong;  You say what I am saying doesn't sit well with your spirit, and that is fine; hopefully you can go back and look at what I said, which was approx. 90 percent quoted scripture, but 10 percent my words.  But even yet, the spirit has to quicken the scriptures in each of us. 

Well, if you say that only those who believe in UR are your brothers, that's OK, but I wouldn't even be surprised then if it is broken down to "but only those who believe and teach ........, and not like other UR teachers who teach..........

Sounds like a denomination, or easily could become one



Thank you for this thread, and through it you have given me some things to take to the Lord too. 


One thing that has really struck me today, is the children of the devil, the proud, the pharisees etc, those "cut off", although our enemies,

are beloved for the father's sakes.  for HIS GLORY. 

and through them, we have received mercy,

and through our mercy, they too will receive mercy.

Oh the awesomeness of HIS plan.  All for his GlORY



(Rom 11:28)  As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

Rom 11:30  For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

Rom 11:31  Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

Rom 11:33  O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

Rom 11:36  For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory forever. Amen.

[rocky]

Hi Rocky,

Please tell me how Jesus could be a "son" before being tested in the wilderness, and before proving his faith.  

I don't think Jesus had to prove anything to be considered the Son of God, He was the Son of the Most High by being born of the Holy Spirit.  He always Referred to God as His Father, while on earth, even as a child He referred to God as His Father.

Luke 2:49  And He said to them, Why did you look for Me? Do you not know that I must be about My Father's business?

John 6:32  Then Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Moses did not give you that bread from Heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from Heaven.

Mat 12:50  For whoever shall do the will of My Father in Heaven, the same is My brother and sister and mother.

Please tell me how Paul could address carnal Christians as bretheren, despite being carnal.

Col 1:23  .....of which I, Paul, became a minister,
v. 24  who now rejoice in my sufferings on your behalf, and I fill up the things lacking of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh, on behalf of His body, which is the church;
v. 25  of which I became a minister, according to the administration of God given to me for you, to fulfill the Word of God;

He wrote those letters to the people that He and the other Apostles had taught the truth and were continuing to minister to them.  These were those scattered groups of brethren he was ministering to by sending them these letters, and I would think there were babes that were yet carnal in these groups.  

1Co 3:3  For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

But in this scripture, I think Paul is asking a sarcastic question, because this is not what they should be doing.
A few scriptures down he ask another question, saying they should be living right if the Holy Spirit is indwelling or God will deal with them.  

1Co 3:16  Do you not know that you are a temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
v. 17  If anyone defiles the temple of God, God shall destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which you are.

Just the way I see this in the scripture.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Hi Kat, i personally think there is some interesting parallels with the baptism of Jesus in the jordan, the spirit coming upon him, named "beloved son", and then sent out into the wilderness. 

Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Mat 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.



Seems there is spiritual parallel for us:

1. baptized into Christ's death via faith:

our baptism, (representative of Christ's baptism in the jordan)

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

then receiving of the spirit

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

(Gal 3:26) For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.


2. My beloved son status given to us, through faith and the spirit

Gal 4:7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.



3. led out to the wilderness, as son's; for the trying of our faith. Because we are sons, then chastisement (our wilderness journey). In this journey, learn obedience, and by God's grace stay faithul, and dont' fall back to works of the law.

Heb 12:8  But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye ********, and not sons.

1Co 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

1Co 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

1Co 10:5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

2Pe 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

2Pe 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

2Pe 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:



Seems to me a great parrallel.

1.Jesus baptized, given son status, then tried in the wilderness


2. Those chosen, baptized into Christ's death via faith, given son status, then led into wilderness for chastisement and trying of our faith.


those who stay faithful to the end will be saved.


I see the "son"ship being given before fully matured in the wilderness.  are not these "sons" not our brothers?

[lilitalienboi16]

Hell Rocky, thanks again for your reply.

I have nothing against the scriptures, and they are always true to me. Lord have mercy, i pray they are!

However, i noticed that those who have the SPIRIT OF CHRIST are the sons and daughters of God. How can those who are of there father the devil have the spirit of Christ in them?

Also, they are beloved for the fathers' sake.

Does being beloved for the fathers sake = our brother and sisters? Why is the FATHERS SAKE? Why not OUR Sake or CHRIST SAKE? Why not, they are 'sons for the fathers sake?' Why the use of the word BELOVED?

I just don't know yet if i can say that simply because they are beloved for the fathers sake, that those jews that believe on him that Christ calls of the devil, are our brothers in Christ. Remmber these people BELIEVE ON CHRIST.

This is why this is not so black and white to me, these are not just athiest or agnostics, these are those that BELIEVE ON HIM! Is this not haveing FAITH IN CHRIST? Yet they are OF THE DEVIL! How can that be? Furthermore, hwo could they be brothers and sisters to us?

I certainly don't think this is creating a new denomination, there is already a unity of spirit that we must strive to maintain as paul contends. I am in no way advocating a new denomination here of any sort, God forbid, we belong to HIS BODY, HIS CHURCH! There is no need for ANY of that, however does that mean that we call those who are of the devil, our brothers and sisters? How do we know who is of the devil? Our brothers and sisters are those who do the commandments of God, can i even say that i do those? I break them all the time.. where do i fall in all this?

SO many questions.. so much confusion...

Thanks for the intersting discussion! I am learning though confusion and questions are part of that long process.

God bless,

Alex

I c

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hello Alex

Just a few observations.

Babylon teaches that there are saved and born again members of the body of Christ BEFORE the resurrection to life in Christ or judgment at the White Throne. Hence the confusion.

For me there are no sons or daughters yet except one and that is Christ. For some there is the conception of His Spirit within and the race to finish the test of faith and trial of our fidelity to Christ.

You say : However, i noticed that those who have the SPIRIT OF CHRIST are the sons and daughters of God.

We do not know who is and who isn't elected to sonship and daughter status yet. Only God knows His own. For us we have the Hope to be called sons and daughters but it is not yet that the sons and daughters have been made manifest.

You ask :  How can those who are of there father the devil have the spirit of Christ in them?

How indeed. Only Christ can give us conversion by giving us the deposit of His Spirit that is not given in full to any. Non have yet reached the full standard height of Christ in this life time but at death perhaps there are a few who have been faithful to receive their crown of glory when after Christ returns.

You say : Also, they are beloved for the fathers' sake.

If by this you mean that the children of the devil are beloved for the Fathers sake then you are way off base I believe because scripture tells us that those who are of the devil are the children of rebellion who are reserved unto wrath and indignation of God and are hardly beloved in their rebellion, vile beastly unrepentant merciless condition of spiritual weakness.

Your questions that ask why God and not our sake is simply because there are non who are good but God. Why make anything for a lessor reason that the height and glory and perfection of God and His Son. Why have any problem with this?

You ask : How do we know who is of the devil?

Simple. Children of the devil are like their father who is a murderer and has no truth in him from the beginning. They are the children of disobedience, partakers of darkness, fornicators, covertness, fools talking foolishness, idolaters of their own understanding giving attention to deluding and seducing spirits and doctrines that demons teach, they are hypocrites, pretentious liars whose consciences are seared with a hot iron, they are filled with irreverent legends and silly myths and indulge in godless chatter with vain and empty worldly phrases subtleties and contradictions falsely calling this knowledge and spiritual illumination. They are those who gratify themselves and do not tolerated or endure sound and wholesome instruction. They have ears that itch to hear false erroneous teachings. They are those who have exchanged the truth of God for a lie and they are without understanding. These are the lovers of themselves not knowing God or His Power.

The world is full of them!

God is not a God of confusion. It is really quite simple really. Following in the foot path of Jesus...now that is the difficult part. You might want to take this to heart and go and take a look into what is taught under http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3849.0.html How Hard is Getting Saved?

Peace to you

Arcturus

[rocky]

Hell Rocky, thanks again for your reply.

I have nothing against the scriptures, and they are always true to me. Lord have mercy, i pray they are!

However, i noticed that those who have the SPIRIT OF CHRIST are the sons and daughters of God. How can those who are of there father the devil have the spirit of Christ in them?

Also, they are beloved for the fathers' sake.

Does being beloved for the fathers sake = our brother and sisters? Why is the FATHERS SAKE? Why not OUR Sake or CHRIST SAKE? Why not, they are 'sons for the fathers sake?' Why the use of the word BELOVED?

I just don't know yet if i can say that simply because they are beloved for the fathers sake, that those jews that believe on him that Christ calls of the devil, are our brothers in Christ. Remmber these people BELIEVE ON CHRIST.

This is why this is not so black and white to me, these are not just athiest or agnostics, these are those that BELIEVE ON HIM! Is this not haveing FAITH IN CHRIST? Yet they are OF THE DEVIL! How can that be? Furthermore, hwo could they be brothers and sisters to us?

I certainly don't think this is creating a new denomination, there is already a unity of spirit that we must strive to maintain as paul contends. I am in no way advocating a new denomination here of any sort, God forbid, we belong to HIS BODY, HIS CHURCH! There is no need for ANY of that, however does that mean that we call those who are of the devil, our brothers and sisters? How do we know who is of the devil? Our brothers and sisters are those who do the commandments of God, can i even say that i do those? I break them all the time.. where do i fall in all this?

SO many questions.. so much confusion...

Thanks for the intersting discussion! I am learning though confusion and questions are part of that long process.

God bless,

Alex

I c

Hi Alex, I definitely agree that those "of the devil" are not our brothers and sisters.  And yes they are beloved for the fathers sakes.  My mistake if I implied that they were brothers and sisters. 

Jesus clearly states who are my brothers and sisters, "those who do the will of the father"

Mat 12:50  For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.


The point I was trying to make, is that it is in one's Heart one believes, and via faith, that person has the spirit of God in them.  And in my opinion, they are brothers/sisters even if immature.  Just like Paul addressed in Corinthians. 

Also, I don't believe one has to believe in a certain "additional" beliefs other than trusting in the death, burial and resurrection for the spirit to be in them.  I do see, each person having to grow up a lot, and remain faithful to the end in order to be saved at the Day of the Lord. 

At what point did you become a brother Alex??  When did your faith become not fake faith, but real faith??  when did the Holy Spirit move in?? 

For me, I again stress the "in your heart", it's a heart faith, not just lip service faith. 

Rom 10:10  For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


Here is something else to think about, Paul's ministry was to these churches (ie: Corinth).  Why would he be in such anguish, prayer, write letters, and continue to seek them, encourage them in the faith, to grow up, and to stay faithful??  to me it's because they were brothers and sisters. 

and in the gospels, Jesus tells his disciples to go from town to town, and if not received, shake the dust off and move on.  These pharissees, were not brothers and sisters, were hardened for a purpose; and no use waisting time on them.



thanks again, you are a blessing and I appreciate your sincerity

[DuluthGA]

I just got through reading this thread, really really good, and thanks to ALL who participated.

Rocky Rocky Rocky.... so many good points and verses that I align with.... I am with you in spirit.  And this is not the first thread where I have appreciated your questions and viewpoints. 

Thanks also Alex for your perspectives and thanks Pera for the good Godtube.

To me, yes there are vessels that were made for dishonor and children that were given to be of their father the devil..... isn't satan a good place to learn from?

1Cr 5: 5   to give up such a one to Satan for the extermination of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. [CLNT]

Just one question, for CIY re:

Well I have seen many religious people act good all of their life, but the love of God was not in them.

How do you know?

Thanks again ALL!

[Gregor]

Greetings with a holy ,

I just finished reading the audio transcript "Ray's talk on Repentance." It is packed with truth, not just on repentance, but on judging. I highly recommend that anyone who hasn't yet read that transcript do so. It really has given me a lot to digest.

This is not an easy or painless process for me, letting go of so much "sand" that I've built my life on. But, I believe it is worth it. Thanks to everyone here contributing to my edification.

Love and Prayers,
G.