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All things under his feet
Kat:
Hi rocky,
It is a good thing to ponder the truths of the scripture :)
It seems to me that concerning things revealed in scripture, there can be many applications.
Concerning our lives, it is so brief that when the Spirit comes to us and the scripture are opened to us, our time left in this life is short, it is our last days. For someone who is faithful, then at death Christ is about to come to them, it will be time for His return to them. This is an individual application.
James 4:14 whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then vanishes away.
But there is also the perspective of the whole world.
Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age (world)." Amen.
To me this verse implies this present church age or until Christ returns to start the next age with the new heaven and new earth. So this application has a view of the big picture, it is speaking to the time concerning this age.
So I guess what I said, it will take as long as it takes, I was talking about God is working all this out a certain way, but time is not a factor for Him. It is all going along just as He wants it to go, not moving to fast or taking too long.
But I guess for us time is a factor. For as soon as our life is over we will be immediate in the resurrection, as far as our consciousness is concerned anyway. None of us know how long we have to live, anybody who is the chosen elect and has been faithful, could enter the kingdom tomorrow or today even, so to speak. What I mean is when we die our next realization will be the resurrection, so if we die today or tomorrow, to us we would be immediately in the resurrection right then. As with Paul and all the Apostles, it has been about 2000 yrs. since they died, but they will awaken in the first resurrection as though they have just died.
I hope you see what I mean. That is just the way I am looking at it :)
mercy, peace and love
Kat
rocky:
--- Quote from: Kat on October 11, 2007, 12:11:05 PM ---
Hi rocky,
It is a good thing to ponder the truths of the scripture :)
It seems to me that concerning things revealed in scripture, there can be many applications.
Concerning our lives, it is so brief that when the Spirit comes to us and the scripture are opened to us, our time left in this life is short, it is our last days. For someone who is faithful, then at death Christ is about to come to them, it will be time for His return to them. This is an individual application.
James 4:14 whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then vanishes away.
But there is also the perspective of the whole world.
Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age (world)." Amen.
To me this verse implies this present church age or until Christ returns to start the next age with the new heaven and new earth. So this application has a view of the big picture, it is speaking to the time concerning this age.
So I guess what I said, it will take as long as it takes, I was talking about God is working all this out a certain way, but time is not a factor for Him. It is all going along just as He wants it to go, not moving to fast or taking too long.
But I guess for us time is a factor. For as soon as our life is over we will be immediate in the resurrection, as far as our consciousness is concerned anyway. None of us know how long we have to live, anybody who is the chosen elect and has been faithful, could enter the kingdom tomorrow or today even, so to speak. What I mean is when we die our next realization will be the resurrection, so if we die today or tomorrow, to us we would be immediately in the resurrection right then. As with Paul and all the Apostles, it has been about 2000 yrs. since they died, but they will awaken in the first resurrection as though they have just died.
I hope you see what I mean. That is just the way I am looking at it :)
mercy, peace and love
Kat
--- End quote ---
Hi Kat, thanks for the reply. I do understand what you have said, and I agree our life is but a vapor, and our physical death is coming soon.
I just question, all the verses in the New Testament re: "about to come", are those talking about individually, our physical death. Is Paul looking at the day of the Lord as our individual physical death?
It seems to me, the only way we can reconcile those "coming quickly" verses is to individualize them. That's the whole idea behind "is, was and will be".
But yet, most of us then still think that there is a global day approaching. No where do we hear Paul preach (at least i don't think so), individually the day of Lord is at hand (ie: your physical death) and yet we have quite a while yet, probably 1000's of years before the "global" day of the Lord is here.
Is Paul talking about his physical death here??
1 Corinthians 7:29 (NKJV) But this I say, brethren, the time is short, so that from now on even those who have wives should be as though they had none,
and this here
1 Corinthians 10:11 (NKJV) Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.
Is the end of the ages our physical death?
1 Thessalonians 3:13 (NKJV) so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.
1 Thessalonians 5:23 (NKJV) Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Timothy 6:14 (NKJV) that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ's appearing,
Hebrews 10:36-37 (NKJV) For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise: 37 "For yet a little while, And He who is coming will come and will not tarry.
James 5:7-9 (NKJV) Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, waiting patiently for it until it receives the early and latter rain. 8 You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand. 9 Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge is standing at the door!
1 John 2:18 (NKJV) Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.
etc.
the scriptures are full of verses about an iminent return of Christ.
Here is an interesting read, In Ezekiel 7, God through Ezekiel said the Day of the Lord was at hand.
The Day of the Lord in this context was when God used Babylon to punish Israel for her sin.
In chapter 11, Israel responded to the threat of coming judgment. They insisted that although Ezekiel said it was at hand it was really not.
It was time to build houses, not worry about judgment. One can almost hear some of those people: "Well, yes, Ezekiel has said the Day of the Lord is at hand, but after all, 'one day is with the Lord as a thousand years and a thousand years is as a day,' Psalms 90:4".
When Israel turned God's words of imminence into meaning-less-ness, God responded.
In Ezekiel 12:21-28 (NKJV) And the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 22 "Son of man, what is this proverb that you people have about the land of Israel, which says, 'The days are prolonged, and every vision fails'?
23 "Tell them therefore, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "I will lay this proverb to rest, and they shall no more use it as a proverb in Israel."
But say to them, "The days are at hand, and the fulfillment of every vision.
24 "For no more shall there be any false vision or flattering divination within the house of Israel. 25 "For I am the LORD. I speak, and the word which I speak will come to pass; it will no more be postponed; for in your days, O rebellious house, I will say the word and perform it," says the Lord GOD.'"
26 Again the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 27 "Son of man, look, the house of Israel is saying, 'The vision that he sees is for many days from now, and he prophesies of times far off.' 28 "Therefore say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "None of My words will be postponed any more, but the word which I speak will be done," says the Lord GOD.'"
Adonai told Ezekiel to tell Israel that her days of changing the time for his predictions were over. He had said judgment was at hand; Israel said it was not at hand. Jehovah would not tolerate it.
again, the verse of
Pro 13:12 Hope deferred maketh the heart sick: but when the desire cometh, it is a tree of life is intersting to me.
thanks for your input
Kat:
Hi rocky,
I believe that "coming of the Lord is at hand," and coming quickly," and "ends of the ages have come," all these can have a duel meaning. It is whatever the spirit is revealing at the time. It can mean our physical deaths or the event that "the whole creation has been groaning in travail" for (Rom 8:22), the return of Jesus Christ to the earth. Which I do believe is an actual event that will happen, when all the predestined elect have been prepared at their appointed time.
One thing is that no generation since Christ have known if they are the generation of His return or not. And I do believe each generation have assumed He could actually return to earth at that time. Thus that is why I believe some scripture speak as though He was about to return physically to that generation.
I do not think His return is thousands of years into the future. I think (like other generations) that we have the real probability of His returning soon. I say that because of scripture like this.
Dan 12:4 But you, Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase."
I think the world is in a position as no other time in history, to have the truth sent out to all of the chosen, by what else but this very internet. But I don't spend to much time trying to figure out how soon it is either.
Mat 24:36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven,[5] but My Father only.
v. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
v. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,
v. 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
skydreamers:
Hi Rocky,
You've brought out some really intriguing and wonderful verses. At this point, I'd have to agree with Kat in that they may have dual applications. Many people it seems are only aware of and are looking for the physical application, thus they look for physical signs only...and so they get caught up in thinking the temple is going to be restored in Jerusalem and some real antichrist man is going to sit there and proclaim he is god etc etc before Jesus actually comes. I use to be all into various end time interpretations, but have lost quite a bit of interest in them since coming to see deeper spiritual things.
And I think that for me that is what comes out in your posts of those scriptures. It's the inward application that's ultimately more important to understand.
--- Quote ---Is Paul talking about his physical death here??
1 Corinthians 7:29 (NKJV) But this I say, brethren, the time is short, so that from now on even those who have wives should be as though they had none,
and this here
1 Corinthians 10:11 (NKJV) Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.
Is the end of the ages our physical death?
--- End quote ---
While I'm sure this has an outward global application, I also see, as you suggest, that it can be applied individually. I've considered that in believers there is an "end of the ages" IN US that happens as part of our spiritual progress.
And He answered and said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here (in the temple...which is US) shall be left upon another, which will not be torn down." (the carnal man being brought down?)
And as He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age? (the end of the man of sin who sits in the temple within us...the end of the beast)"
And Jesus answered and said to them, "See to it that no one misleads you. "For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many. (various false prophets and false doctrines within the church system which led us astray for a time?)"
And you will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars (the battle within...for we do not wrestle with flesh and blood but with spiritual forces of evil in heavenly places...our minds); see that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end.
"For nation will rise against nation (in us), and kingdom against kingdom (in us), and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes (shaking the heavens....At that time his voice shook the earth (the physical), but now he has promised, "Yet once more I will shake not only the earth (the physical) but also the heavens (the spiritual realm of our minds). This phrase, "Yet once more," indicates the removal of things that are shaken--that is, things that have been made (the physical carnal body)--in order that the things that cannot be shaken may remain. (the spirit body perfected in God's image) Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken Hebrews 12:26-28) (And the kingdom of heaven is within you...)
"But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs....(all this must take place within us before we can be born again into the spirit....)
Matthew 24:2-8
Just my thoughts.
Peace,
Diana
rocky:
--- Quote from: skydreamers on October 11, 2007, 10:04:48 PM ---Hi Rocky,
You've brought out some really intriguing and wonderful verses. At this point, I'd have to agree with Kat in that they may have dual applications. Many people it seems are only aware of and are looking for the physical application, thus they look for physical signs only...and so they get caught up in thinking the temple is going to be restored in Jerusalem and some real antichrist man is going to sit there and proclaim he is god etc etc before Jesus actually comes. I use to be all into various end time interpretations, but have lost quite a bit of interest in them since coming to see deeper spiritual things.
And I think that for me that is what comes out in your posts of those scriptures. It's the inward application that's ultimately more important to understand.
--- Quote ---Is Paul talking about his physical death here??
1 Corinthians 7:29 (NKJV) But this I say, brethren, the time is short, so that from now on even those who have wives should be as though they had none,
and this here
1 Corinthians 10:11 (NKJV) Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.
Is the end of the ages our physical death?
--- End quote ---
While I'm sure this has an outward global application, I also see, as you suggest, that it can be applied individually. I've considered that in believers there is an "end of the ages" IN US that happens as part of our spiritual progress.
And He answered and said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here (in the temple...which is US) shall be left upon another, which will not be torn down." (the carnal man being brought down?)
And as He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age? (the end of the man of sin who sits in the temple within us...the end of the beast)"
And Jesus answered and said to them, "See to it that no one misleads you. "For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many. (various false prophets and false doctrines within the church system which led us astray for a time?)"
And you will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars (the battle within...for we do not wrestle with flesh and blood but with spiritual forces of evil in heavenly places...our minds); see that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end.
"For nation will rise against nation (in us), and kingdom against kingdom (in us), and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes (shaking the heavens....At that time his voice shook the earth (the physical), but now he has promised, "Yet once more I will shake not only the earth (the physical) but also the heavens (the spiritual realm of our minds). This phrase, "Yet once more," indicates the removal of things that are shaken--that is, things that have been made (the physical carnal body)--in order that the things that cannot be shaken may remain. (the spirit body perfected in God's image) Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken Hebrews 12:26-28) (And the kingdom of heaven is within you...)
"But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs....(all this must take place within us before we can be born again into the spirit....)
Matthew 24:2-8
Just my thoughts.
Peace,
Diana
--- End quote ---
good post Diana, I like your thoughts.
makes you wonder why even worry about any of the physical.
A thought I had though, is that a physical event can still be spiritual.
Jesus physically died on the cross, but the cross is spiritual, worked out in us.
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