> General Discussions
Two for One
indianabob:
--- Quote from: sonofone on October 15, 2007, 03:49:55 PM ---Wow Arcturus that was a total ripping apart of my post,which I actually found entertaining LOL I kept imagining you as a computer who could not compute information that has not already been programed into you. I mean you know disrespect,it is just laughable the way you dismantled every single part of it.I for now will not choose to rebuff what you have said,not because I can't because God knows I am more than capable of breaking down everything you said point by point,but rather because I fear it would yield no fruit.That is to say that it would be fruitless,it would not be or lead to a healthy, profitable discussion,only an agreement to
agree to disagree. So to each his own if this is what you believe far be it from me to teach you otherwise.
--- End quote ---
Friend Sonofone,
I am just an observer here and don't have the mind to recall all that you have said or that Arcturus has said. What I do have is an impression of both of you as strong willed and determined AND of working to be polite and gracious in the midst of a little heat.
My impression based upon a small part of other letters you have written and the one above in particular is as follows:
1. Why is Arcturus' response a "total ripping apart"? That reads as if you felt a personal attack of your words. Why?
2. She seems like a machine that cannot compute new information? Just repeats what has been programmed in. What would prompt you to say something like that? Maybe she just know her subject and doesn't change from day to day.
I'm just an old codger and perhaps I don't understand the way young people speak nowadays, but that reads like a calculated mild insult.
3. Her sincere effort to explain her carefully studied beliefs, based upon her study and Ray's writings and to contrast them with your recent letter is "laughable"? Why would any of us laugh at the sincere and studied reply from another member of the forum? We are all friends and our God and Jesus don't appreciate it when we think ill of one another. We are all here to learn from Ray.
Being sure of our individual views is natural, but we all had to accept correction at some point. Lots of correction.
4. You say that "God knows that you are capable"... I don't understand how that statement improves communication between us. You seem to be sort of taking an oath to prove that your point is valid. If so, it hasn't helped me to grasp your view point.
I'll skip over the next couple of points to get to the last half of the last sentence ... "far be it from me to teach you otherwise".
I think, in my hopefully, humble opinion that this statement of yours will help to explain the dichotomy between us. With sincere regard and respect for your study and your developed view point; we are not here to be TAUGHT by you or ME, OR any of the other visitors or newer members of the forum. Even the APPOINTED moderators are careful to limit their remarks to excerpts that have been previously published and perhaps to restate those excerpts in different words for the individual reader.
We are here to build up our knowledge and understanding of what Ray Smith has shared with us. We are here to build understanding of how these teachings apply to various situations in our lives, such as marriage relationships, child rearing, productive Bible study and so forth. We are here to learn to factually contradict the error that has been taught for several centuries in the world's Christian organizations.
I of course do not speak for anyone else, but I do regularly read over the forum guidelines, and teaching of our individual view points or comparing our view points in opposition to Bible Truths, is not why we are here. Many have already made their choice, we have and still are checking what Ray has written to see if we understand it well enough to share it with others. We have already proven to our satisfaction that the Bible Truths articles are accurate and dependable and lead to building character and developing grace toward ALL of God's children.
What I am learning and what may be of some help to others is that almost every other church, fellowship, Seminary etcetera has had their chance to discover what God wants His called out ones to learn and after all these years they haven't found the pearl of great price. It's not their fault and they can't help it and we love all of them anyway, but most of the others want a religion of blessings and joy and peace and NO problems and NO challenges and NO pain. That is not the way we are being led.
WE are being led through trials of fire and that is our part in following the path Jesus walked for all of us.
All of the above is subject to editing and correction.
If I misunderstand please comment.
Respectfully, indianabob
sonofone:
--- Quote from: indianabob on October 17, 2007, 12:40:19 AM ---
--- Quote from: sonofone on October 15, 2007, 03:49:55 PM ---Wow Arcturus that was a total ripping apart of my post,which I actually found entertaining LOL I kept imagining you as a computer who could not compute information that has not already been programed into you. I mean you know disrespect,it is just laughable the way you dismantled every single part of it.I for now will not choose to rebuff what you have said,not because I can't because God knows I am more than capable of breaking down everything you said point by point,but rather because I fear it would yield no fruit.That is to say that it would be fruitless,it would not be or lead to a healthy, profitable discussion,only an agreement to
agree to disagree. So to each his own if this is what you believe far be it from me to teach you otherwise.
--- End quote ---
Friend Sonofone,
I am just an observer here and don't have the mind to recall all that you have said or that Arcturus has said. What I do have is an impression of both of you as strong willed and determined AND of working to be polite and gracious in the midst of a little heat.
My impression based upon a small part of other letters you have written and the one above in particular is as follows:
1. Why is Arcturus' response a "total ripping apart"? That reads as if you felt a personal attack of your words. Why?
2. She seems like a machine that cannot compute new information? Just repeats what has been programmed in. What would prompt you to say something like that? Maybe she just know her subject and doesn't change from day to day.
I'm just an old codger and perhaps I don't understand the way young people speak nowadays, but that reads like a calculated mild insult.
3. Her sincere effort to explain her carefully studied beliefs, based upon her study and Ray's writings and to contrast them with your recent letter is "laughable"? Why would any of us laugh at the sincere and studied reply from another member of the forum? We are all friends and our God and Jesus don't appreciate it when we think ill of one another. We are all here to learn from Ray.
Being sure of our individual views is natural, but we all had to accept correction at some point. Lots of correction.
4. You say that "God knows that you are capable"... I don't understand how that statement improves communication between us. You seem to be sort of taking an oath to prove that your point is valid. If so, it hasn't helped me to grasp your view point.
I'll skip over the next couple of points to get to the last half of the last sentence ... "far be it from me to teach you otherwise".
I think, in my hopefully, humble opinion that this statement of yours will help to explain the dichotomy between us. With sincere regard and respect for your study and your developed view point; we are not here to be TAUGHT by you or ME, OR any of the other visitors or newer members of the forum. Even the APPOINTED moderators are careful to limit their remarks to excerpts that have been previously published and perhaps to restate those excerpts in different words for the individual reader.
We are here to build up our knowledge and understanding of what Ray Smith has shared with us. We are here to build understanding of how these teachings apply to various situations in our lives, such as marriage relationships, child rearing, productive Bible study and so forth. We are here to learn to factually contradict the error that has been taught for several centuries in the world's Christian organizations.
I of course do not speak for anyone else, but I do regularly read over the forum guidelines, and teaching of our individual view points or comparing our view points in opposition to Bible Truths, is not why we are here. Many have already made their choice, we have and still are checking what Ray has written to see if we understand it well enough to share it with others. We have already proven to our satisfaction that the Bible Truths articles are accurate and dependable and lead to building character and developing grace toward ALL of God's children.
What I am learning and what may be of some help to others is that almost every other church, fellowship, Seminary extra has had their chance to discover what God wants His called out ones to learn and after all these years they haven't found the pearl of great price. It's not their fault and they can't help it and we love all of them anyway, but most of the others want a religion of blessings and joy and peace and NO problems and NO challenges and NO pain. That is not the way we are being led.
WE are being led through trials of fire and that is our part in following the path Jesus walked for all of us.
All of the above is subject to editing and correction.
If I misunderstand please comment.
Respectfully, undeniable
--- End quote ---
I hesitate,to respond to this post Bob,for I feel it will probably be my last post here on the open forum. You call me friend,but I think you use that term lightly.It reminds me of the way Jesus said to Judas,friend! I don't believe that open character assassination classifies you as my friend. I have written you several Pm's addressing my willingness to establish a dialogue with you to discuss openly and plainly any questions about myself. You have responded to none of them rather you have chosen the safety net of likeminded believers to bash me openly.I have already addressed Arcturus concerning my comments on the post,I take it by her response that she has received it and moved on. I now apologize to you or anyone else out here that may of been offended by my post,these and most likely all other comments will not come from me again.As to teaching,which is a term used loosely around here,As I said to both Arcturus,and Kat.Far be it from me to teach you or anyone else here anything. If you noticed I never did offer any rebuttal to what Arcturus posted in regards to my post,neither did I attempt to answer the question I believed you requested me to answer in this post.I did this intentionally as not to stir the hornets nest. I joined here in good faith.After reading Rays sight like many of you I was excited to find someone who expoused many of the same views I held,and challenged me to consider,and or eventually accept others.So I joined this forum to link up with likeminded believers,I only think now that some of us have a different definition of what that statement means. This is my pledge from this day forward,I will not post anymore of my thoughts,or questions here again. I will at most visit the site if or when I feel led to and this only to check in on some who have in fact presented themselves to be real friends to me. Think not Bob that I have arrived at this decision because of your post,for that is not at all the case, your post was just the proverbial last straw. God bless to all of you,perhaps to some good riddens!
indianabob:
sonofone,
I will be away for a few hours but will respond later.
I have not been checking for P Ms on the forum as I am not sure how to do that.
I did leave my personal address on yahoo and on gmail and I don't believe that I got any messages from you in the last month.
I have about twenty friends that write to me weekly and I always respond as is my habit.
So, if I have failed to answer you it was not intentional.
I will check the p ms as soon as I return today.
p. s. I called you friend in full sincerity.
I argue and debate with many of my friends every day at the coffee shop.
My children and I debate about politics and religion and outer space about once a week.
This is my normal activity since I have retired from full time work.
It is also my habit to accept correction and to learn to value the opinions of others. (value them, not blindly accept them)
I don't make a big deal of it, I still have GOOD friends in other church groups,
friends who would get up at three in the morning to rescue me from an auto accident or to comfort me in hospital.
We do not let our difference of opinion come between us in any way.
I have learned to understand their point of view and they have learned to understand mine, but it wasn't easy.
The code I have tried to follow is as follows.
To have a productive discussion.
I. Don't raise my/your voice or use rough sounding words.
2. Keep a smile on your face or write smile in the text.
3. Don't try to win the debate! It isn't about winning, it's about sharing ideas.
This is what I follow most of the time and I sometimes fall short.
I sincerely desire to continue our relationship. I will do my human best to be thoughtful and kind in my use of words.
I DO NOT promise to ever agree with you on views contrary to those I have studied and accepted into my mind.
It doesn't matter how elegantly presented other views are, I question everything.
I believe in the axiom "Trust and verify" in my relationship with man AND with God.
So, if it be in your heart to forgive my lack of sensitivity, please do allow our communication to continue.
Thank you. bob.breyfogle@gmail.com OR p.m.
sonofone:
Thanks Bob I am always glad to extend or have olive branches extended to bring healing to intended or unintended wounds. So on that note forgive me for assuming that you ignored my Pm's. I am obviously wrong concerning this and your use of the word friend. So thanks for the olive branch.The funny thing is as I thought about what I wrote this morning I thought about my laughing at what or the way that Arcturus dissected,or in my original word dismantled my whole post. If I were amongst friends talking and this is what happened this would have been both my reaction and response.Friends are allowed to shoot down what you say and your response does not have to be anger. I was not angry with Arcturus,for what she did,I was however frustrated as I often get when talking to anyone including my own wife. My wife and sometimes friends require me to break down everything I say piece by piece until they come to a proper understanding of what I am trying to convey.That gets so annoying for me,in the case of Arcturus my frustration comes from knowing that this forum is not the place to ferret out our misunderstandings or disagreements,therefore making it pointless to even try. If there is one thing you guys should know about me,it is that I don't run from a good verbal fight or exchanging of ideas, in fact I almost live for it. That is what I meant by saying that I was more than capable of rebutting what was offered. This however is not the place or forum for this. In realizing this I offer no rebuttal,I simply agree to disagree. I am going to be taking a break from posting here on the forum,not because of any person here,but rather myself.I reread the forum rules today,and I realize that I have quite simply hit a snag. I am not now abiding by the spirit and intent of this forum. This is my own admission,no moderator has written me and said this. I am sanctioning myself. I am admitting that I need to take a break from posting my thoughts and opinions unless and until my contribution here is able to be within the confines of the forum.You guys deserve this.I did not come up with the idea to create this site,I have not contributed one red cent to help advance it or keep it going,which by the way I would like to make a donation of some sort to help in this cause,I can't promise much but I would like to help in some way.Sorry for the sidebar.This site is intended to help those who meet the requirement to join this forum in the first place. So I am choosing to humble and check myself,who am I kidding I was probably within seconds of getting booted out of here anyway ::)lol sort of like the proverbial resignation when you know that you're probably going to get fired. LOL I jest,well sort of :-\ I love you guys and I will still lurk in the background and respond to Pm's and who knows maybe even live to post again some day. Peace
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