The Enigma: Jesus Christ our Master and our God

[Kat]

The one thing I will commented on is the glory of God... where do you suppose He obtained that glory.

John 17:5  And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
v. 6  "I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.
v. 7  Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You.

And not only has Christ received great glory from the Father, but the elect will as well.

John 17:21  that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.
v. 22  And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:
v. 23  I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

So if this glory makes the Father and Son indistinguishable, will the elect be indistinguishable from the Father as well? Of course not.

John 17:24  "Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
v. 25  O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me.
v. 26  And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them."

I have questioned myself many times about continuing this discussion, but now I do it only for others that may be helped by the Scriptures brought forth.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[theophilus]

Greetings Kat,

So you must think it's only when the Son becomes lower than the angels is what made the Father greater than Him. No I certainly don't believe that. I am saying the One who brought the Son forth is greater, because the One that brought forth the Other would have to be greater to do that.

Now if you don't want to say the Son is a creation of God, well then formed is fine with me, but it's the Scripture where that term comes from or most of the translations have it that way. So whatever.

Whether  YHWH/Jehovah/Yahweh is brought forth or formed there is no evidence that  Father is greater than the Son. The Scriptures tells us that this formed God is the only God(Isa 44:6) the only Savior(Isa 43:11) the Almighty God (Exo. 6:3).

If you say that the one that brought forth the Other would have to be greater, saying  without evidence is like an hearsay. But, I'm eager to know the truth and the evidence, maybe i am not paying attention to all the words or i miss something.

Let me show you the verse that This YHWH is sharing the Glory with his Father. In their glory that they shared, you cannot distinguish who had the greater or lesser glory. They have their glory.

Jhn 17:5 'And now, glorify me, Thou Father, with Thyself, with the glory that I had before the world was, with Thee;(YLT)
Now, Father, bring me into the glory we shared before the world began. NLT

This is my two cents:

John 17:5 TMB
Third Millennium Bible

And now, O Father, glorify Thou Me with Thine own Self with the glory which I had with Thee before the world was.

The Son had a glory WITH the Father BEFORE the world was. This glory was enjoyed by the Son IN UNION WITH His Father, not apart from Him. There is no language in this verse that indicates whether the Father's glory was greater than the Son's, or whether the Son's glory was equal to His Father's.

What can be seen or understood is that the Father was sharing His glory with His Son before the world was, not the other way around. The Father is the origin or source of everything, even the Son. After the Son came forth from His Father, He received the Father's glory, just as He received the Father's spirit.

You share with others what they don't have. In the same way, the Father began to share His glory with His Son at some point. You can't say that Jesus shared His OWN glory with His Father; it's the other way around. This indicates who of the two is the source of this glory. Jesus didn't say 'glorify me with the glory that I shared with you'. Jesus could have truthfully stated 'glorify me with the glory that You shared with me'.

With the words 'the glory which I had with Thee', Jesus was indicating that He could not have that glory WITHOUT His Father. This clearly indicates who was sharing with who.

[santgem]

Sister Kat,
Greetings!


The one thing I will commented on is the glory of God... where do you suppose He obtained that glory.

John 17:5  And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
v. 6  "I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.
v. 7  Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You.

In Verse 5, YHWH who is Jesus is sharing the glory with the Father, Jesus is speaking the glory which he had before meaning he is still the YHWH before and not Jesus the man. Clearly, it is not stated where he obtained that glory, it is just they are sharing the glory.

In verse 6, Jesus is manifesting the name of the Father to the men whom the Father had given him. Jesus as man claiming that these men were owned by the Father and it was given to him to the man Jesus. It is these men that out of the world was given to man Jesus by the Father and not the glory that he had before when he is still the YHWH.

In verse 7, Jesus is stating that all things that he had was from the Father. Father is giving all these things because Jesus is now a man. It is very clear that when he became man that Father is giving all these things to him. When He was still the YHWH he created all these things that is why it is of no use that the Father have to give these to him.

There are only two verses that I know why Jesus the man had to receive these things to his Father. First, it is when he was born by a virgin that he had a God. Second, when he had the flesh that he had a God. It is very clear that when he was still YHWH the God there's no such incidence that all things were given to him because all things were created through him and by him. When he was became man he has no freewill but when he is YHWH he had.

Psalm 22. I was thrust into your arms at my birth. You have been my God from the moment I was born.
Jer 32:27Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there anything too hard for me?




And not only has Christ received great glory from the Father, but the elect will as well.

John 17:21  that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.
v. 22  And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:
v. 23  I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

Again, Jesus is now a man. YHWH emptied himself to become Jesus as a man. Jesus had to receive the glory from his Father. When he was still God as YHWH he did not received it from anybody, the glory was shared between Father and Son. When YHWH became a man he doesn't have freewill. All that he does is the will of the Father. The Father did not give the glory to the elect directly it is always through Jesus. It is Jesus who is giving the glory to men.

So if this glory makes the Father and Son indistinguishable, will the elect be indistinguishable from the Father as well? Of course not.

John 17:24  "Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
v. 25  O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me.
v. 26  And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them."

The  glory that Jesus had when he was still the YHWH is indistinguishable with the Father but the elect to the Father cannot be. How come the Glory of the Father be the same with the elect! Unbelievable!

I have questioned myself many times about continuing this discussion, but now I do it only for others that may be helped by the Scriptures brought forth.

If you are living in the truth you have to bring the truth. It doesn't matter whether you are correct and I am wrong or I am correct and you are wrong, what matter is we bring the truth. What benefits us if we hide the truth, better to show the truth, better that we try to give the truth than voluntarily hiding the truth.

When you are asking and pleading the Father to give you bread of Life will our Father give you snake of Lies?


mercy, peace and love
Kat


@ theophilus,
Greetings!

I think the answer to your post is on top of my post. The Son who is speaking is now Jesus the man. This Jesus had no freewill but when he was still YHWH he had a freewill. YHWH the only God the only Savior the Almighty God emptied himself to become Jesus. When This YHWH becomes Jesus and this Jesus had the flesh and became a man that is the time that he had God.

[Kat]

I will no longer continue this debate with you seeing there is not a chance of agreement here.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Dave in Tenn]

Ray did not teach that God (or Jesus in the flesh) had a free-will.

I'm going to lock this thread down, but not before making some observations:

1.  From my chair, many members are 'using' the same scripture to 'debate' their viewpoint.  Do the Scriptures contradict?  No.  So then something else must be causing 'contradiction'.

2.  From my chair, many members seem to be in agreement with one another, but cannot bring themselves to admit it.  Why not?  Is it because the 'other' hasn't phrased it the same way?  Is it because the other hasn't approached it from the same angle?  Is it because the 'other' doesn't understand some deep thing that only the one understands?  Or maybe--just maybe--and I'm just saying, is all--the 'pride of life' is operating.

3.  Has anyone here gotten God into a theological bottle?  If so, I suppose congratulations are in order.  You are the first person since Jesus Christ to know Father intimately.  RAY SMITH only claimed to be helping us move CLOSER.  If RAY SMITH had said otherwise, I would have run for the hills.

4.  It's time (and past time, I think) to reign in this discussion and others like it.  When it turns into TEACHING, it should not be allowed to stand.  There is no rule against 'teaching'--only against teaching HERE.  If you want to start your own website and expound what you believe and why, then go for it.  Nobody is a spokesman for Ray Smith.  The very notion that Ray needed a spokesman is ludicrous.  All ANY of us can do in our own words is try to communicate what we have learned, and snce this is the B-T forum, what we have learned HERE.

5.  I know that 'batting things around' can be a worthwhile enterprise.  But that's not what tends to happen in these threads, sooner or later.  That's why we 'moderate'.  And I plan and hope to do a better job of it.

6.  Comments from forum members and moderators is not the best place for 'newbies' to get at the truths Ray taught.  Everything he wrote applies to YOU, in the way that it does.  Start and grow.  Take what you need and want.  Study, think about it, compare scripture to scripture, spiritual with spiritual, compare one 'article' with another--because they all lean on each other just as Scripture says--line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little there a little.

Cheekie, this isn't punishment, my friend.  Hang in there.