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Why is Jesus called "the ONLY-begotten Son of God?
Kat:
Hi indianabob,
You ask;
Please give more detail concerning Jesus still or yet being a man while at the throne of the Father in heaven.
Compare that with Jesus' origins and conception and life on the earth.
Is spirit existence yet man in Jesus situation?
Will we in our future spiritual life still be humans?
---------
I was thinking about your question. In the scripture Jesus Christ is referred to as 'man' after His resurrection.
Act 7:56 and said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God.
Rom 5:15 ...For if by the offense of the one many died, much more the grace of God, and the gift in grace; which is of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.
The Father is not a man and I think it is difficult (impossible) to relate to Him as such, but Jesus Christ is our connect with the Father and we relate to Him as a man.
1Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
I do not think of Christ as a man with physical limitations like we have, though He did empty Himself to become a man while He was on earth, so as to die. Now He is all glorious, and all power and authority is given to Him (Matt. 28:18).
Col 2:9 For in Him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.
In Rev. Christ is described in His glorified state and though it is symbolic, it still is in the form of a man.
Rev 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
v. 14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
v. 15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
v. 16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp two-edged sword and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
v. 17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
v. 18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive forevermore, Amen;
I just wanted to bring this scriptures study here that I found on this matter, to see if this might help clarify this.
The Mobile and Nashville conferences have a good bit about Jesus in them. Here is the links to the audios and transcripts.
List of audios for anyone that may need it http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2641.0.html
Transcripts http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?board=12.0
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Bradigans:
--- Quote from: hillsbororiver on October 17, 2007, 07:04:58 PM ---
--- Quote from: Bradigans on October 17, 2007, 06:44:26 PM ---I believe that Christ Jesus is THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON of THE FATHER because He literally came out from God and was placed in the physical in a virgins womb (Hebrews 7:3). Christ did not come through the line of Adam. Remember the seed is always carried by and through the male. Joseph was not THE FATHER of Jesus. The virgin Mary and Joseph were really not the biological parents of Christ. He is, was, and has always been the eternal God (Revelations 1:8, John 1:1).
--- End quote ---
Hi Bradigans,
I am not sure you really meant the above (in bold) that Jesus and God the Father are the same, equal?
From the "Trinity" paper;
http://bible-truths.com/trinity.html
A "Father" and a "Son" CANNOT ALSO BE THE SAME PERSON!
Countless things can be said to "be ONE" in numerous forms of close relationship. In this close relationship of purpose, will, harmony, etc., our Lord said:
"I and the Father, We are ONE" (John 10:30).
Will all my readers please note that Jesus DID NOT say "I and the Father, We are one GOD," did He? No, He did not!
Do the Scriptures, however, tell us that there is only ONE GOD? Yes, they do.
Do the Scriptures, tell us WHO that ONE God is? Yes, they do.
Do the Scriptures tell us what the relationship of Jesus Christ is with that ONE God? Yes, they do.
In fact, all of these things are answered in ONE Scripture.
I will now give you the ONLY Scripture you will EVER need for understanding Who Jesus Christ and God the Father are and how many Gods there are, and Who composes that ONE God. Here it is:
"For even if so be that there are those being termed gods, whether in heaven or on earth, even as there are many gods and many lords, nevertheless for US there is ONE God, the FATHER, out of Whom ALL IS, and we for Him, and ONE LORD, JESUS CHRIST, through Whom all is, and we through Him" (I Cor. 8:5-6).
And the next verse says
"But NOT IN ALL is there this knowledge" (Ver. 7)
I can say "Amen" to that. Practically "not in all" Christendom is there this knowledge.
If you have not yet THANKED GOD for making these things so clear, so meaningful, and so simple, DO IT NOW!
The above verse really doesn’t need commentary, but I want to comment anyway.
How many Gods are there? Answer: "ONE God."
Of Whom is this ONE God composed? Answer: "the FATHER." NOT, the Father, AND the Son, AND the holy ghost! Just, "the Father!" ONLY, "the Father!!" "ONE God, the FATHER!"
Is this too hard for anyone? Is not God’s definition far easier and better than the theologians’ "one, plus ONE, plus ONE, equals ONE" nonsense?
Is Jesus Christ an equal part of this "ONE God?" NO, He is not. Let God’s Word tell us. We don’t need to speculate and theorize. Here is Who and What Jesus Christ is, He is the "one LORD." This is not hard. It is only hard for those who wrestle and twist Scripture to their own destruction (II Peter 3:16). John 8:5-6 makes the following very clear:
This Scripture tells us that "ALL IS OUT OF" GOD (the FATHER).
And this Scripture tells us that "ALL IS THROUGH" Jesus Christ.
God the Father is the first cause of all and ALL IS OUT GOD, even Jesus Christ is "OUT of God."
"...I [Jesus] came OUT from God. I CAME OUT FROM the FATHER..." (John 16:27-28).
Now if Jesus came out from the trinity, why doesn’t the Scripture say so? He didn’t come out of the trinity and He didn’t come out of the holy spirit, but HE DID COME, "...OUT FROM THE FATHER!"
And after Jesus Christ came OUT from the Father, ALL ELSE came THROUGH Jesus Christ:
"Who [Jesus Christ] is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature, for in Him is ALL CREATED, that in the heavens and that on the earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created THROUGH Him and FOR Him, and He is BEFORE all, and all has its cohesion in Him" (Col. 1: 14-17).
Nowhere do we read that God came out from Christ! No, Christ came OUT FROM THE FATHER and all else was created THROUGH Jesus Christ. There is no trinity here!
Jesus Christ is not the SUPREME DEITY. Christ is not the originator of all. Christ is "the Lord." He is the Son of God. He is the IMAGE of the invisible God. He is the Mediator,
For there is ONE God, and ONE Mediator OF God and mankind, a MAN Christ Jesus..." (I Tim. 2:5).
As I said before, one cannot be both "of" something or someone and at the same time "be" that something or someone. There is certainly no trilateral, triune, trinity of God here!
Jesus Christ said,
"...I am going to the Father, for the Father is GREATER than I" (John 14:28).
Where do we read that Christ is GREATER than the Father? There is no trinity in this verse!
And again:
"Now, whenever ALL may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself [Jesus Christ] also SHALL BE SUBJECTED TO HIM [God the Father] Who subjects all to Him, that GOD may be All in all."
Where do we read that someday God the Father will be SUBJECT to Christ? There is no trinity in these Biblical truths.
And again:
"Now I want you to be aware that the Head of every man is Christ, yet the head of the woman is the man, yet the Head of Christ IS GOD" (I Cor. 11:3).
Where do we read in Scripture that Christ is the Head of God?
There is another profound statement in the Scriptures that PROVES CONCLUSIVELY that Jesus Christ is not part of a trinity, but is now and always will be, under the Headship of His Father. Here it is:
"...that the GOD OF OUR LORD Jesus Christ, the FATHER..." (Eph. 1:17).
There it is--Jesus Christ HAS A "GOD!" Paul wrote this and all of the above Scriptures AFTER Jesus Christ was resurrected and restored to His previous GLORIES in God. And in His glorified state, Jesus Christ is STILL subjected to HIS GOD! Who wants to be the first blasphemer to even suggest that God the Father "has a God?"!!! But Jesus Christ, DOES have a God! Notice the following:
Eph. 1:3: "Blessed be the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ"
Col. 1:3: "We are thanking the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ"
I Pet. 1:3: "Blessed be the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ"
And remember these statements concerning Jesus Christ "having a God" were made long after His resurrection and restoration back to His former glories. Today, our Lord STILL HAS A GOD! And need I repeat the fact that the God and Father of Jesus Christ DOES NOT HAVE A GOD?! And someone out there still thinks God is a equilateral trinity?
There are many more Scriptures that show the distinction between God the Father’s office of supreme deity of the universe and that of His Son and Image, Jesus Christ the Lord and Mediator.
Peace,
Joe
--- End quote ---
Amen... I believe Ray gives a lot more clarity to what I thought i was trying to say. God bless and thanks. I hope this isn't too much, but here's a little something i picked up from THE Prophet's site:
Is There A Trinity?
Directly associated with the understanding on water baptism is the truth about the Godhead. The churches "traditionally" believe in three separate or distinct persons in one God. This was arrived at due to the scriptural mentioning and deity of the Father, Son and Holy, Spirit. The result of the fourth century meeting of the Nicene Council was to place them under the Trinitarian definition.
Like the false so-called "baptismal formula, this "new" concept swept the expanse of the Christian Church and through the centuries has become so embedded in Christian thought that to question its validity is immediate heresy.
The church lost the revelation that the one God, Jehovah, expressed Himself in the Old Testament as the Father, manifested Himself in the Gospels in the Son, Jesus, and revealed Himself in the Book of Acts as the Holy Spirit. In reality, it is three dispensations of the same God. God above us, God with us, God in us. NOT three persons, but one glorious personage, finally and wonderfully unveiled.
(Hebrews 1 :3)
The heathen intellectual minds of the theologians could not reconcile the appearance of the Son on earth to the Father remaining in heaven. They, forgetting that God can be in heaven and on earth at the same time, (John 14: 10), decided there had to be at least two in the Godhead and the entrance of the Holy Spirit in Acts 2 made it three. They made the Son the second person of the Godhead, failing to realize that the scriptures do not convey that Jesus is in the Godhead, but rather that the Godhead is in Jesus. Col. 2;9,
For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. They could only see that the Father was a God and the Son was a God and missed the true concept that the Father was God and the Son was the flesh or man in whom that God dwelt. (Luke 1 :35 and I Timothy 3: 16)
The ensuing three personnel deity is every bit as much a form of idolatry as were the various pagan gods the children of Israel would consistently begin to worship. Through the ages, God "winked" at this encroachment, but the ministry of the last angel was to fully restore a true understanding of this to the elect.
I have excerpted some poignant comments made by Brother Branham from his series on the Seven Church Ages:
"Now all these expressions, 'Him Which Is,' and 'Him Which Was,' and 'Is To Come,' and 'Faithful Witness,' and 'Firstborn From Among the Dead,' and 'Prince of the Kings of the Earth,' and 'The Alpha .and Omega,' and 'The Almighty,' are titles and descriptions of the ONE AND THE, SAME PERSON, Who is the Lord Jesus Christ, Who washed us from our sins in His own blood.
The Spirit of God in John expresses thusly in order to set forth the Supreme Deity of Jesus Christ and to reveal the Godhead as ONE God. Today there is a gross error. It is that there are three Gods instead of one. This revelation as given to John by Jesus, Himself, corrects that error. It is not that there are three Gods, but one God with three offices. There is ONE God with three titles, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. This mighty revelation IS what the early church had, and it must be restored in this last day along with the correct formula of water baptism.
Now modern theologians won't agree with me for here is what was written in a great Christian magazine. That teaching (on the Trinity) is at the very heart and core of the Old Testament. It is every whit as much at the heart and core of the New Testament. The New Testament is just as much opposed as the Old Testament is to the thought that there are more Gods, than one. Yet the New Testament with equal clearness teaches that the Father is God, and the Son is God; and the Holy Spirit is God, and that these three are NOT three aspects of the same Person, but three persons standing in a truly personal relationship to one another. There we have the great doctrine oh the Three Persons but one God.
They also state, God, according to the Bible,. is not just one person, but He is three persons in one God. That is the great mystery of the Trinity. "It sure is. How can three persons be one God? Not only is there no Bible for it, but it shows even a lack of intelligent reasoning. Three distinct persons, though identical substance; make three gods; or language has lost its meaning entirely. Just listen to these words again, I am Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the Ending, saith the Lord, Which Is, and Which Was, and Which Is to Come, the Almighty. This is Deity. This is not simply a prophet, a man. This is God. And it is not a revelation of three Gods, but of ONE God, the Almighty.
They didn't believe in three Gods in the beginning of the church. You can't find that sort of belief amongst the apostles. It was after the apostolic age that this theory came in and really became an issue and a cardinal doctrine at the Nicene Council. The doctrine of Godhead caused a two-way split at Nicea. And from that split it there came two extremes. One actually, went into polytheism, believing in three Gods, and the others went into Unitarianism. Of course that was a little while in coming about, but it did, and we have it right today. But the Revelation through John by the Spirit to the churches was, I am the Lord Jesus Christ, and I am ALL of it. There isn't any other God, And He put His seal on this Revelation:
Consider this: Who was the Father of Jesus? Matt. 1:18 says, She was found with child of the Holy Ghost. But Jesus, Himself, claimed that God was His Father. God the Father and God the Holy Ghost, as we often express these terms, make the Father and the Spirit ONE. Indeed they are, or else Jesus had two Fathers. But notice that Jesus said that He and His Father were One, not two. That makes ONE God.
Since this is historically and Scripturally true, people wonder where the three came from. It became a foundational doctrine at the Nicene Council in 325 A.D. This trinity (an absolutely unscriptural word) was based upon the many gods of Rome. The Romans had many gods to whom they prayed. They also prayed to ancestors as mediators. It was just a step to give new names to old gods, so we have saints to make it more Biblical. Thus, instead of Jupiter, Venice, Mars, etc. we have Paul, Peter, Fatima, Christopher, etc., etc. They could not make their pagan religion work out with just one God, so they split Him up into three, and they made intercessors of the saints as they had made intercessors of their ancestors.
Ever since then people have failed to realize that there is just one God with three offices or manifestations. They know there is one God according to Scripture, but they try to make it the fantastic theory that God is like a bunch of grapes; three persons with the same Divinity shared equally by all. But it plainly says here in Revelation that Jesus is That Which Is, That Which. Was, and 'That Which Is to Come.. He is the Alpha and Omega, which means that He is the' A: to "Z' 'Or The All Of It, He is Everything, The Almighty." He is the Rose of Sharon, the Lily of the valley, the Bright and Morning Star, the Righteous Branch, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. He is God, Almighty God. ONE GOD.
1 Tim. 3: 16 says, And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness.God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles; believed on in the world, received up into Glory. This is what the Bible says. It doesn't say a thing about a first or second or third person here. It says God was manifest in flesh. One God. The ONE GOD was manifested in flesh. That ought to settle it. God came in a human form. That didn't make Him ANOTHER GOD. HE WAS GOD, THE SAME GOD. It was a revelation then, and it is a revelation now, One God.
hillsbororiver:
Hi Bradigans,
I have heard (and read) this doctrine before, I believe Ray has nailed it though.
God the Father and Jesus are indeed 2 separate entities not 2 manifestations of the same Person.
(re quote from Ray's Trinity paper in my previous post)
Is Jesus Christ an equal part of this "ONE God?" NO, He is not. Let God’s Word tell us. We don’t need to speculate and theorize. Here is Who and What Jesus Christ is, He is the "one LORD." This is not hard. It is only hard for those who wrestle and twist Scripture to their own destruction (II Peter 3:16). John 8:5-6 makes the following very clear:
This Scripture tells us that "ALL IS OUT OF" GOD (the FATHER).
And this Scripture tells us that "ALL IS THROUGH" Jesus Christ.
God the Father is the first cause of all and ALL IS OUT GOD, even Jesus Christ is "OUT of God."
"...I [Jesus] came OUT from God. I CAME OUT FROM the FATHER..." (John 16:27-28).
Now if Jesus came out from the trinity, why doesn’t the Scripture say so? He didn’t come out of the trinity and He didn’t come out of the holy spirit, but HE DID COME, "...OUT FROM THE FATHER!"
And after Jesus Christ came OUT from the Father, ALL ELSE came THROUGH Jesus Christ:
"Who [Jesus Christ] is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature, for in Him is ALL CREATED, that in the heavens and that on the earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created THROUGH Him and FOR Him, and He is BEFORE all, and all has its cohesion in Him" (Col. 1: 14-17).
Nowhere do we read that God came out from Christ! No, Christ came OUT FROM THE FATHER and all else was created THROUGH Jesus Christ. There is no trinity here!
Jesus Christ is not the SUPREME DEITY. Christ is not the originator of all. Christ is "the Lord." He is the Son of God. He is the IMAGE of the invisible God. He is the Mediator,
For there is ONE God, and ONE Mediator OF God and mankind, a MAN Christ Jesus..." (I Tim. 2:5).
As I said before, one cannot be both "of" something or someone and at the same time "be" that something or someone. There is certainly no trilateral, triune, trinity of God here!
Jesus Christ said,
"...I am going to the Father, for the Father is GREATER than I" (John 14:28).
Hope you make it to Mobile, you will not be disappointed!
His Peace to you,
Joe
Bradigans:
--- Quote from: hillsbororiver on October 18, 2007, 07:15:37 AM ---Hi Bradigans,
I have heard (and read) this doctrine before, I believe Ray has nailed it though.
God the Father and Jesus are indeed 2 separate entities not 2 manifestations of the same Person.
(re quote from Ray's Trinity paper in my previous post)
Is Jesus Christ an equal part of this "ONE God?" NO, He is not. Let God’s Word tell us. We don’t need to speculate and theorize. Here is Who and What Jesus Christ is, He is the "one LORD." This is not hard. It is only hard for those who wrestle and twist Scripture to their own destruction (II Peter 3:16). John 8:5-6 makes the following very clear:
This Scripture tells us that "ALL IS OUT OF" GOD (the FATHER).
And this Scripture tells us that "ALL IS THROUGH" Jesus Christ.
God the Father is the first cause of all and ALL IS OUT GOD, even Jesus Christ is "OUT of God."
"...I [Jesus] came OUT from God. I CAME OUT FROM the FATHER..." (John 16:27-28).
Now if Jesus came out from the trinity, why doesn’t the Scripture say so? He didn’t come out of the trinity and He didn’t come out of the holy spirit, but HE DID COME, "...OUT FROM THE FATHER!"
And after Jesus Christ came OUT from the Father, ALL ELSE came THROUGH Jesus Christ:
"Who [Jesus Christ] is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature, for in Him is ALL CREATED, that in the heavens and that on the earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created THROUGH Him and FOR Him, and He is BEFORE all, and all has its cohesion in Him" (Col. 1: 14-17).
Nowhere do we read that God came out from Christ! No, Christ came OUT FROM THE FATHER and all else was created THROUGH Jesus Christ. There is no trinity here!
Jesus Christ is not the SUPREME DEITY. Christ is not the originator of all. Christ is "the Lord." He is the Son of God. He is the IMAGE of the invisible God. He is the Mediator,
For there is ONE God, and ONE Mediator OF God and mankind, a MAN Christ Jesus..." (I Tim. 2:5).
As I said before, one cannot be both "of" something or someone and at the same time "be" that something or someone. There is certainly no trilateral, triune, trinity of God here!
Jesus Christ said,
"...I am going to the Father, for the Father is GREATER than I" (John 14:28).
Hope you make it to Mobile, you will not be disappointed!
His Peace to you,
Joe
--- End quote ---
Thank you dear brother. I will definitely study this and pray for not sense knowledge (knowledge from the mind), but revelation knowledge (knowledge of and from the heart John 16:13). Keep me in your prayers. I'm really going to search this out. Be patient with me because Colossians 2:9 really stands out for me. I don't believe I do but I could have a misrepresentation of this verse. I've been wrong before. Keep us in your prayers, and if THE SPIRIT leads, we'll hash this out.
IN HIS LOVE
hillsbororiver:
Hello again Bradigans,
I can understand how this verse could be perceived as Christ being both manifestations of God;
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.
Let's say a king has a son who is of mature age and has proven to be knowledgable, trustworthy and is everything his father raised him to be, this same king desires a treaty with a neighboring kingdom and sends his son to negotiate the treaty and gives him charge of all the treasury, armies and even the borders of his kingdom.
The king provides a document with his seal on it for his son to present to the king of the neighboring country which states that "my son is in charge of everything in my empire, my entire kingdom is at his disposal please negotiate with him in good faith as he has my complete trust and his word will bind my kingdom to any contract he makes with you, just as if I made it myself. My kingdom is in his hands and my I will honor any treaty he deems to be just, we are of the same mind and I am well pleased with him in everything."
Joh 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
Joh 5:36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
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