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Author Topic: Finished?  (Read 16515 times)

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Deborah-Leigh

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Finished?
« on: October 21, 2007, 06:31:29 PM »

Ray teaches that there are four things that happen with sin.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3709.0.html

So there are four things that happen with sin:

1.   Committed
2.   Remitted
3.   Repented
4.   Removed


Unquote.

Are there some things that happen with forgiveness? The reason I ask this is that the following Scripture caught my eye recently.

Isa 6 : 5 Then said I, Woe is me! For I am undone and ruined, because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts! 6. Then flew one of the seraphim to me, having a live coal in his hand which he had taken with tongs from off the altar; 7. And with it he touched my mouth and said, Behold, this has touched your lips; your iniquity and guilt are taken away, and your sin is completely atoned for and forgiven.

We know that no one in the  OT received the promises of the New Covenant so they will be in the LOF White Throne Judgement. Does this mean then that the number 4. removal of sin that Ray notes in his teaching on Repentance,  will only happen at the LOF for those who have lived before the sacrifice of Christ? This is how I understand this and I believe the following Scripture is a witness : Heb 9:28 Even so it is that Christ, having been offered to take upon Himself and bear as a burden the sins of many once and once for all, will appear a second time, NOT TO CARRY ANY BURDEN OF SIN NOR TO DEAL WITH SIN, but to bring to FULL SALVATION ( is this the number 4 REMOVAL of sin that Ray lists? I believe it is. ) those who are eagerly, constantly and patiently waiting for and expecting Him.

Here is what I think is correct.  Those in Judgement NOW,  are already having their sins removed but this process is not completed until the final test that is physical death.   Only the chosen and proved faithful to death can succeed into the life with Christ at their resurrection.  Is the fulfilment and completion of the removal of sin endured through chastisement and correction throughout the lives in judgment NOW as on the House of God,  finalized, completed and finished (It is finished)  John 19 :30 by death, the way of the cross into life with the Spirit of Christ? I think it is.  

Scriptures, insights and teachings by Ray that can assist and confirm or refute and correct these thoughts would be appreciated.

Peace to you

Arcturus :)






 

 
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rocky

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Re: Finished?
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2007, 10:19:06 PM »

Hi Arcturus,

I found this whole chapter interesting, especially this verse (NLT) translation. 

Eze 16:63  You will remember your sins and cover your mouth in silence and shame when I forgive you of all that you have done, says the Sovereign LORD."

Maybe this chapter is in line with what you are asking?? 

Rev 3:18  I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eye salve, that thou mayest see.

Rev 16:15  Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Phi 3:19  Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

Heb 6:6  If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame


Rom 9:33  As it is written, Behold, I lay in Zion a stumblingstone and rock of offense: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

« Last Edit: October 21, 2007, 11:27:04 PM by rocky »
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Finished?
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2007, 03:00:01 AM »

Hello Rocky

These Scriptures come to mind in response to your post.

1 John 1 :7 If we are living and walking in the Light, as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses REMOVES us from all sin and guilt.

Removes is an on going process as I see it. It is not finalised until we are born again and chosen for His Kingdom right? This side of life no one is born again as we learn from the teachings and revelations given to us through Ray. So non of us are yet born of God. Non of us are free of liability to temptations failures and weakness.

1 John 3 : 9 Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin.......

We can know we have left our first love on the way to perfection in Christ but we do not reach that perfection this side of life. No one knows who is chosen and who is not, yet, we can see the fruit of the lives lived around us and discern yet not know for sure who is a chosen elect.

We are all unborn. Whether we are  more the aftermath or the baby of such birth that lies ahead, we have yet to find out.

2 Peter 3 : 18 But grow in grace,
(Grace. Gods divine influence on our hearts ref Ray Smith http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5417.0.html) and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To Him be glory both now and forever.

1 John 2 : 1 My little children, I write you these things so that you may not violate God's law and sin. But if anyone should sin, we have an Advocate with the Father - Jesus Christ the all righteous upright, just, who conforms to the Father's will in every purpose, thought, and action.

Well that makes sense. HE ~ Jesus Christ IS the only born again Son of God at this time. Did the born again life of Christ come through His Resurrection to Life with the Father? Is this why He is always the First Son of God and the Preeminent One. I believe so. HIS ~ Jesus Christs brethren will be resurrected to life in HIM. HE was resurrected to life in the FATHER and others will be resurrected to life in the SON and become sons and daughters of the Son and heirs with the Son of the Father. Like a grandchildren right? Who can have equality and sameness of Christ? He is the seed that fell and died and others are His off spring being formed into His Image right? I think so? Any Scriptures, teachings from Ray to witness or refute this. It feels like I am taking baby steps :)...I know, I know, I am not born again ;D this could be womb wobble going on :D

The world is still in birth pangs and the chosen are not yet revealed, manifested or born yet.Ask any mother how difficult life gets in the last week of pregnancy! No wonder sin abounds. I wait for GRACE to abound much more. I do not claim that I am chosen. I might be the aftermath but hope not....

Luke 21 : 36 Keep awake then and watch at all times, be discreet, attentive and ready, praying that you may have the full strength and ability and be accounted worthy to escape all these things that will take place, and to stand in the presence of the Son of Man.


Scriptures, insights and teachings by Ray that can witness, assist and confirm or adjust, correct or refute, these thoughts would be appreciated.

Thank you for your contribution Rocky.

Peace to you

Arcturus :)

« Last Edit: October 22, 2007, 03:01:10 AM by Arcturus »
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rocky

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Re: Finished?
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2007, 10:58:32 AM »

Mat 3:17  And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Mat 4:1  Then was Jesus led up of the spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

Heb 5:8  Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

Rom 1:3  Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

Rom 1:4  And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
« Last Edit: October 22, 2007, 11:01:37 AM by rocky »
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jER

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Re: Finished?
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2007, 03:09:05 AM »

To Add:

Wherefore, as by one man, sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression,
who is the figure of him that was to come.
(Romans 5:12, 14)

For as in Adam all die…

The flesh cannot be converted; it must be destroyed and made new.
Therefore, the "Old man" of sin must be buried, for they that are flesh can not please God.

...even so, in Christ shall all be made alive. (I Corinthians 15:22)

Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men… to condemnation… (Romans 5:18a)

…even so, by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. (Romans. 5:18b)

What happens to one; happens to all. First, there is a physical death, then a spiritual (second) death (now, or at the White Throne Judgment)
which results in a "New Creation in Christ."


It is indeed, "Finished", and completed in/by Him.
 
- jER
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rocky

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Re: Finished?
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2007, 11:31:40 AM »


What happens to one; happens to all. First, there is a physical death, then a spiritual (second) death (now, or at the White Throne Judgment)
which results in a "New Creation in Christ."

jER


Hi jER, do you see all going through the same process (just different times) or different process to gain same result=LIFE from the dead?

To me, both judgments result in death,

but one results in reward (works built upon the rock),

the other, no reward (works built upon the sand) with the result shame,



both=LIFE


I know Ray teaches the chosen don't experience wrath of God

is he teaching ever?  or just not later?

thanks




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YellowStone

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Re: Finished?
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2007, 12:41:12 PM »

Great discussion and thanks Arcturus for starting it :)

Arcturus, I agree with you in that I do not believe who the chosen are, or even if I will be counted worthy. But are we missing something, it would appear that John believed that it is possible to be born again. Please note that I am in no way in disagreement with you, just sharing a portion of Johns 1st letter. He say's: "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1 John 3:9

This is pretty clear to me and rightfully so, for who would even want to sin being born of God? But then John follows on with: "This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are..." 1 John 3:10

Please know that you will never hear me state that I am perfect, far from it.  ::)

However, John precludes this with the following:

1 John 3:4-6
4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5 But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

WOW!!! No one who continues to sin has either seen him (I wasn't with John for sure) or known him.  ???

But I do know him, or rather He has made himself known to me. John says, anyone who sins breaks the law, but was not the law fulfilled and as such made null and void?

Well let's look at what Paul says of this.....

Rom 6:1   What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?
 
Rom 6:2   By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?
 
Rom 6:3   Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
 
Rom 6:4   We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
 
Rom 6:5   If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection.
 
Rom 6:6   For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin–
 
Rom 6:7   because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.
 
Rom 6:8   Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.
 
Rom 6:9   For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him.
 
Rom 6:10   The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
 
Rom 6:11   In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
 
Rom 6:12   Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires.
 
Rom 6:13   Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness.
 
Rom 6:14   For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.
 
Rom 6:15   What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!
 
Rom 6:16   Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey–whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?
 
Rom 6:17   But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted.
 
Rom 6:18   You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
 
Rom 6:19   I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever‑increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness.
 
Rom 6:20   When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness.
 
Rom 6:21   What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death!
 
Rom 6:22   But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.
 
Rom 6:23   For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in[fn2] Christ Jesus our Lord.

 
I want to just focus on a couple of points that Paul made in this chapter:

Rom 6:2   By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?
Rom 6:5   If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection.
Rom 6:6   For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin–
Rom 6:7   because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.

What then is sin? Does not Paul state that "we" died to sin; that our "old" self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with. Verse 7, cannot be speaking of a "physical" death, because Paul goes on to say in verse 8: " Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him." Does this not tie in perfectly with what John was saying in 1 John 3:9: No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God."

Confused? I am.  ::)

I ask my question again, what is sin? Are we not free of sin? (Rom 6:7) Can we not know that through the death and Resurrection of Christ, that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death. (1Jo 3:14) Is sin not a consequence of the law? Are we not now under grace? (Rom 6:14)

Who knows what God has planned for each one of us? Not even John himself knew.....

1Jo 3:2   Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
 
I will close this response with the following from John, with words that should speak clearly to us all.

1Jo 3:18-24 
Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth. 19 This then is how we know that we belong to the truth, and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence 20 whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. 21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22  and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.
   
I too are willing to stand corrected with anything that I have stated here.

Love to all in Christ, our Redeemer.

Darren




« Last Edit: October 23, 2007, 02:15:44 PM by YellowStone »
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Finished?
« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2007, 04:05:18 PM »

Hello Darren

Thank you  for your contribution. It is precisely this kind of communication that spurs me to greater precision in my thinking and deeper desire to understand Jesus Christ and the Word of God.

Your post made me return to the fact that the Image of God is not yet complete in us. If we sin no more and are delivered out of delusion, seeing partially as in a glass mirror dimly as Peggy contributed in another thread of mine, then, Darren, how can we be born again while yet in this life. Okay I see the point you make about us having the deposit of the Holy Spirit of Christ that is working in some of us yet how can we be certain who is who except by the fruit and even then can we be sure because as it is written only God can see the heart.

Earlier on in the Forum it was noted that some can pretend to have the fruit of the Spirit and be White washed Sepulchers full of dead men's bones. Okay I added the last part but see what I mean. Many holier than thou pious murderers of the sight are preventing many from entering the Kingdom of God while they stand at the door and do not enter even themselves.  See?

I believe I have to trim my thoughts down to the bone and ask what is the conclusion of my thinking. My search for edification and deeper insight surrounds this question. Do we get born again this side of life or not? Scriptures may allude to this being a reality yet if we take the allusion we end up deluded because then we can fall to the temptation of believing that when sin no longer has dominion over us, that means we are no longer sinners. That is wrong thinking as I see it.

So where Ray has presented point 4. in his teaching I believe this happens as the reward to those who are chosen and resurrected to life in Christ where certainly, the Scriptures will be proved not to lie and will be fulfilled as you have noted wherein the chosen will not sin anymore and those requiring correction in the LOF will no longer die anymore and will be perfected under chastisement and wrath.

How does that sound?

Rocky you presented this Scripture : Rom 1:4  And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

I believe this is KEY to remind us that it is BY THE RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD that the declaration of Son of God is made not before death of the physical natural and carnal spiritual.

Thank you all for your participation. Please continue to share and contribute edification's and encouragements towards deeper recognition of the teachings we accept via Ray Smith and the understandings we have recieved of the Scriptures.

Let us reason together. Are the Scriptures presented by Darren literal for now or do they point to a future state of being wherein those chosen will experience sinlessness with Christ having shed and having destroyed once and for all, the carnal old man?

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
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Grateful

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Re: Finished?
« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2007, 04:13:09 PM »

Hello, all !

As I was reading all of your replies in this "Finished?" topic of discussion, these thoughts kept revolving around in my mind.  Tell me what you think, OK, please?   Could the word "death" be a way of saying "death to the awareness of God's Presence" in your mind and heart?   And when we actually DO God's Will all the time, by obeying His Precepts, we ARE "born again", and cannot sin (coveting, stealing, lying, backtalking, slandering, etc., etc.)?   Could this be what Paul in Romans 6 was referring to??

Years ago, I read in some spiritual material somewhere that "house" means "awareness" , "consciousness (of)".  Hence, when that Bible Scripture says, "In My Father's house are many mansions." and "As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord." , we're talking about the cognitive function of the mind.

Input, anyone?

Linda
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Finished?
« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2007, 04:33:22 PM »

Hello Linda

May be it is "death" to the blindness and deafness of the Presence of God. Like "death" as being the amnesia or comatose absence of knowing of Gods being and Sovereignty. I often feel that carnality is like a amnesia to the mind body and soul awareness and knowledge of God.

We know that the carnal is at deep seated hate for God and will kill all perceptions of Him ie DEATH itself because God is LIFE. I am the way the truth and the LIFE. Carnality is death.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

Can we ever be rid of our carnality this side of life. I believe we have to cross over the resurrection line to know if we are free or subject to judgment to righteousness in the LOF.

To return to my first question about Isaiah. Was he left carnal and will he be in the LOF after having been forgiven and is this why Ray points out point 4 as being the REMOVAL of sin in the four point process? I think it is? Is there some edification or correction required to focus on this conclusion anyone?

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
« Last Edit: October 23, 2007, 04:37:01 PM by Arcturus »
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Robin

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Re: Finished?
« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2007, 05:00:49 PM »

This scripture jumped out at me.

"…and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the Living and True God; And to wait for His Son from heaven, Whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come" (I Thes. 1:9b-10).

Darren's post really hits home with me. I have 10 pages of typed scripture that relate to those Darren posted. These are the scriptures that showed me that I am the beast and there is no hope within myself. There is no free will that will save me from my condition. There is no way to save myself. Once I hit that point God started removing idols. When the idols were removed the sin that entangled me with each idol was removed. I had a multitude of idols.

2 Corinthians 10:5
5We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.

1 Peter 1
14As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. 15But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; 16for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy."


Hebrews 10
13Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, 14because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Philippians 3:12
[Pressing on Toward the Goal ] Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.

2 Timothy 4:7
I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2007, 05:02:21 PM by M.G. »
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YellowStone

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Re: Finished?
« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2007, 05:32:41 PM »

Hello Darren

Thank you  for your contribution. It is precisely this kind of communication that spurs me to greater precision in my thinking and deeper desire to understand Jesus Christ and the Word of God.

Your post made me return to the fact that the Image of God is not yet complete in us. If we sin no more and are delivered out of delusion, seeing partially as in a glass mirror dimly as Peggy contributed in another thread of mine, then, Darren, how can we be born again while yet in this life. Okay I see the point you make about us having the deposit of the Holy Spirit of Christ that is working in some of us yet how can we be certain who is who except by the fruit and even then can we be sure because as it is written only God can see the heart.
Peace to you

Arcturus :)

Hi Arcturus,

Thank you so much for your comments. I am still with you okay, but you ask: "Darren, how can we be born again while yet in this life"

The Spirit is leading me in this, yet I am not sure where it is I will end. (I know what John meant) :)

One would appear that the phrase "Born Again" requires several things to have occured.

       1. Having been once born
       2. Having died
       3. Being born again.

We were all born of the flesh, this is a given; however, the remaining two points seem to be addressed by both John and Paul.

How can we die, but yet still live?

I believe Paul answers this very clearly with his following words:

Rom 6:2   By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?

Here Paul very clearly states that "we" have died to sin. Death, this is thre requirement of the second clause. But how did we die?

Rom 6:3   Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

Well Paul links this to baptism in Christ, not only in his life, but also his death.

Rom 6:4   We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

So when Christ died and was buried, our old self died and was buried with him. But did our old self die?

Rom 6:5   If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection.

According to Paul, our old self did die. I think Pauls next words whole the key. Our old self died, but it was raised with Christ on HIS ressurection. Paul continues on with.....

Rom 6:6   For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin

Our Old Self was crucified with Christ, so that we should no longer be slaves to sin, the body of sin is gone. Please know that his is news to me. That the body of sin is done away with NOW. It must be, else Christ died for nothing. :(

Rom 6:7   because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.[/color][/i]

We are freed from sin and are no longer slaves to it or the law.

Rom 6:8   Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.

I believe this answers part one of your question of how one can die, but yet still live. :)


How can we die, but yet still live?

So if our Old self died with Christ, what then was made anew?

Paul helps us gain understanding with the following:

Rom 6:17   But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted.

There are two parts here: "Used to be slaves," can only me prior to Christs death. "You wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted." must mean after the granting of the Spirit, which followed the ressurection of Christ.

Christ was raised as a Spirit, although we cannot state the same, does not the Spirit live in us? And as such, are we not slaves to God and not to sin? (Rom 6:18)

1 John 3:2
2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

John makes it very clear that he was not always a child of God. What happened? Could it be that with the deat and resuurection of Christ and the coming of the Spirit, that John fully realized that his old self was dead, and now with the Spirit his life as a child of God had begun. A new life.

I find this interesting, as I know once God began opening my eyes with his Spirit, I became a new person almost everything within me changed. I think many will relate to this.

John concludes this discussion with the following:

1 John 3:24 Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

Was not a NEW life given us? (Rom 6:4)

My question to anyone reading this, is: Do you consider yourself the same person still, after having your eyes, ears and hearts opened by the Spirit.

In some sense, I would hope all here have been born again (made anew) in the Spirit.

1 John 3:9
No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God."

Please know I am not teaching or suggesting anything, I am just sharing what has been given me. I will gladly stand corrected. Arcturus, I hope I have given sufficient Scriptural backing to satisfactorily answer your question.

Let me add also, that I believe (at least) I am still yet a babe in the truth, and have much learning and growing before any would call me mature. But praise be to God for all that he has given me.

Love to you in Christ,

Darren
« Last Edit: October 23, 2007, 05:40:15 PM by YellowStone »
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Finished?
« Reply #12 on: October 23, 2007, 06:13:37 PM »

Joe thank you for your post. It is not without merit and serves a most stabilizing reminder. Thank you.

MG your post is inspiring. Thank you.

As I see it now,  Moses, Abraham, Job and Isaiah who encountered Christ did not receive the conception of Christs Spirit within them. The Spirit of Christ may have guided them, spoken to them and influenced them but was not yet IN THEM as a conception. Jesus Christ had not yet been born as the second Man and He had not died nor was yet resurrected from where His Spirit the Paraclete is the  conception of His Spirit given to those chosen by God to receive His Promises.

If I look again at Ray's teaching:

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3709.0.html

So there are four things that happen with sin:

1.   Committed
2.   Remitted
3.   Repented
4.   Removed


I see this as being that the sin is not removed unless the Spirit is conceived and born again through stage 1,2 and 3 and finally upon resurrection at point 4. for those so chosen. In this process we come to experience and know to distinguish between good and evil. Gen 3 : 22

Can we say that the removal of sin as identified in point number 4. of Ray's teaching is the process of  judgement NOW on the House of God or at the LOF?

This Thread has helped me to better articulate what I need to know. Thank you all.

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
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Beloved

  • Guest
Re: Finished?
« Reply #13 on: October 23, 2007, 07:45:20 PM »

This a very thought provoking thread.

Arcturus I really like your metaphor "Womb Wobble"  Every time I examine a pregnant patient now and feel fetal movement, I am going to hear those words.

The way I understand it is that the "earnest" that we have is better than the "promise" the OT had.

Ray so rightly pointed out , gennao means both to be born into the world and to be conceived. In human reproduction this is a very complicated process as one progresses from the twinkle in the eye to the actual birth of the baby so it must be likewise in the spiritual .

1Jo 3:9  Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1Pe 1:23  Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth forever


I agree I do not think that this speaking of today, but I believe it is future…those elect who will finally be  manifested/born…who run the race and endure until the end…in these the seed indeed remains….

here are some other translations of this one verse
 
(1Jo 3:9 CLV)  Everyone who is begotten of God is not doing sin, for His seed is remaining in him, and he can not be sinning, for he is begotten of God."  The verb tense are better here


(1Jo 3:9 KJV+)  Whosoever3956 is born1080 of1537 God2316 doth not3756 commit4160 sin;266 for3754 his848 seed4690 remaineth3306 in1722 him:846 and2532 he cannot1410, 3756 sin,264 because3754 he is born1080 of1537 God.2316
I do not think these translation got it..if you look at the word cannot ( it has two word parts)  it is not exatly "cannot sin" but it he is "not capapable or has the power to sin".

G1410  δύναμαι dunamai
Thayer Definition:
1) to be able, have power whether by virtue of one’s own ability and resources, or of a state of mind, or through favourable circumstances, or by permission of law or custom
2) to be able to do something
3) to be capable, strong and powerful
Part of Speech: verb


I do not know if this is true for you ....but a soon as I do any thing that is out of line with the Word….I am instantly and totally cognizant of it and ready to repent.

I usually start to bang my head on the wall and then I get disgusted that I still cannot control myself and then finally  I have to totally lean into our Savior Jesus Christ and readily repent. Only then am I able to regain my composure again.

Joh 3:5  Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

There is no “Born again” phrase in the bible but the above verse looks like it implies one.  Most see the water as the earthly birth then the spiritual birth.   Or does it ?.   Those chosen must go through judgement while here in the flesh. Is the born of water the baptism in death that Paul talks about.

Being born is naturally tied into the other side of life, a sort of womb to tomb thing.  Most christians like the concept of being born but that abhor the reality and meaning of the Cross. Paul had a lot to say about this

(1Co 15:31 KJVR)  I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily

Why did Paul say he had to die daily?  In the flesh…sin can occur..hence the wages…death. By dying daily we offer ourselves as sacrifices too…and follow the example of Christ.
 
Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, [which is] your reasonable service.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me


 Is 1John talking about the  rebirth progession when he says

(1Jo 2:1 KJVR)  My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
(1Jo 2:2 KJVR)  And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


Is he talking to the babes in Christ and the unsaved who first receive the word.

(1Jo 2:12 KJVR)  I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.

Then he goes on to others in the audience and the order of these statements has always puzzled me.

(1Jo 2:13 KJVR)  I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. Are these maturing Christians, they knew Christ and have stayed the course?

I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one.  Are these the ones who are early in their walk

I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.

(1Jo 2:14 KJVR)  I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.

Then later John finally writes

(1 Jo 3:14 KJVR)  We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

1 John 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world


Love therefore is the litmus test of maturity,

Beloved
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GODSown1

  • Guest
Re: Finished?
« Reply #14 on: October 23, 2007, 09:51:18 PM »

Praise! GOD Darren,
                          Amen! brother, wot U hav said & hav xsplained Very well az 2 da 'T'  ;D ;) is so Awesum!!, & it really Opened my eyes & ears. Thank YOU FATHER, & Thank U brother 4 bein dis GOD given Vessel, if I may say, I understood d@ Wholeheartedly!!, GODBLESS!!.
           
Darren asks: My question to anyone reading this, is: Do you consider yourself the same person still, after having your eyes, ears and hearts opened by the Spirit.

In some sense, I would hope all here have been born again (made anew) in the Spirit.
           
Wow!! I believe I can Honestly! answer YES!!! I have so changed! (made anew!) Bigtime! :), Considering da 39 years of my Life b4 my eyes & ears being Opened 2 Y im on dis GOD Created Earth, (Believe me, wot a turn around) I am now 42yrs old, & believe me az most of da pple of my Past dont or more really cant  ;D, "I so LOVE THE LORD our GOD!", Thanks again brother..
           
I jus wanna give Thanks 2 U 2 Arcturus 4 dis Thread, coz thru all d@ had been said & answered, bort an Awesum! Revelation 2 me!..
Amen..
             muchLOVE!! Pera
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rocky

  • Guest
Re: Finished?
« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2007, 10:40:29 PM »


I see this as being that the sin is not removed unless the Spirit is conceived and born again through stage 1,2 and 3 and finally upon resurrection at point 4. for those so chosen. In this process we come to experience and know to distinguish between good and evil. Gen 3 : 22


Arcturus :)

Hi Arcturus,

Can you explain a little bit what you mean by "come to experience and know to distinguish between good and evil"?? 

do you see knowledge that comes from eating of the tree of knowledge of  good and evil as the same as "experiencing and distinguishing" between good and evil??

thanks
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Robin

  • Guest
Re: Finished?
« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2007, 11:05:37 PM »

Here is a comment from Ray in today's email reply.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5691.0.html


COMMENT:  No, all will be saved regardless of what they "have DONE," not according to what they are "still DOING."  Sin must ultimately be repented of and taken out of the sinner through Judgment.
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Gregor

  • Guest
Re: Finished?
« Reply #17 on: October 23, 2007, 11:16:36 PM »

Greetings,

My question to anyone reading this, is: Do you consider yourself the same person still, after having your eyes, ears and hearts opened by the Spirit.

In some sense, I would hope all here have been born again (made anew) in the Spirit.

I really feel schitzophrenic these days. I think I feel like Paul when he says in Rom.7:
14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do.

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

I don't even know if I can say that "with the mind I myself serve the law of God" All I can say/pray is that this is just part of the process of coming to being "born again in spirit". What I do find interesting is that in vs. 21 Paul says something amazing: " with me, the one who wills to do good." This is in contrast to Romans 3:11-13 (New King James Version)
11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one.”[a]
13 “ Their throat is an open tomb; With their tongues they have practiced deceit”; “ The poison of asps is under their lips”;
Footnotes:
   [a] Psalms 14:1–3; 53:1–3; Ecclesiastes 7:20

Paul is stating that now, in his spirit, he is different, even though the battle rages on. In this I realize that I'm probably on the right track and just need to continue continuing on. It ain't over till this present age is over.
G.
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YellowStone

  • Guest
Re: Finished?
« Reply #18 on: October 23, 2007, 11:42:23 PM »

Hi Gregor,

How can one not feel the frustration that surely Paul felt when he penned those words.

Rom.7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom.7:15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do.

I like the way you presented process of being "born again in the Spirit" I consider my former life as a formless lump of clay. Oh sure I think God pinched a bit here and pressed a bit there, sometimes I think he picked it up and dropped it. Somestimes I was dry and other times way to wet, but over the past 17 years I have felt God's loving hands on me, and he is molding something beautiful. I have know idea what and as a dear brother said to me, never marvel the fine china tea cup at the expense of the saucer, which is entrusted to keep the tea off the snow white linen.

This has been a great thread and I thank you all for spiritual fruits shown.

Love in Christ,
Darren
« Last Edit: October 24, 2007, 12:16:44 AM by YellowStone »
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YellowStone

  • Guest
Re: Finished?
« Reply #19 on: October 23, 2007, 11:45:42 PM »

Praise! GOD Darren,
                          Amen! brother, wot U hav said & hav xsplained Very well az 2 da 'T'  ;D ;) is so Awesum!!, & it really Opened my eyes & ears. Thank YOU FATHER, & Thank U brother 4 bein dis GOD given Vessel, if I may say, I understood d@ Wholeheartedly!!, GODBLESS!!.
           
Darren asks: My question to anyone reading this, is: Do you consider yourself the same person still, after having your eyes, ears and hearts opened by the Spirit.

In some sense, I would hope all here have been born again (made anew) in the Spirit.
           
Wow!! I believe I can Honestly! answer YES!!! I have so changed! (made anew!) Bigtime! :), Considering da 39 years of my Life b4 my eyes & ears being Opened 2 Y im on dis GOD Created Earth, (Believe me, wot a turn around) I am now 42yrs old, & believe me az most of da pple of my Past dont or more really cant  ;D, "I so LOVE THE LORD our GOD!", Thanks again brother..
           
I jus wanna give Thanks 2 U 2 Arcturus 4 dis Thread, coz thru all d@ had been said & answered, bort an Awesum! Revelation 2 me!..
Amen..
             muchLOVE!! Pera


You are more than welcome Pera. I too have changed, sometimes I cannot believe how much I used to worry about things, of how much I used to miss or simply did not have time for. The coming of the Spirit it ones life by the grace of God, is the dawning of a new life, well it certainly was for me.

May God continue to bless you and yours,

Love,
Darren
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