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Finished?
rocky:
--- Quote from: jER on October 23, 2007, 12:09:05 AM ---
What happens to one; happens to all. First, there is a physical death, then a spiritual (second) death (now, or at the White Throne Judgment)
which results in a "New Creation in Christ."
jER
--- End quote ---
Hi jER, do you see all going through the same process (just different times) or different process to gain same result=LIFE from the dead?
To me, both judgments result in death,
but one results in reward (works built upon the rock),
the other, no reward (works built upon the sand) with the result shame,
both=LIFE
I know Ray teaches the chosen don't experience wrath of God
is he teaching ever? or just not later?
thanks
YellowStone:
Great discussion and thanks Arcturus for starting it :)
Arcturus, I agree with you in that I do not believe who the chosen are, or even if I will be counted worthy. But are we missing something, it would appear that John believed that it is possible to be born again. Please note that I am in no way in disagreement with you, just sharing a portion of Johns 1st letter. He say's: "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1 John 3:9
This is pretty clear to me and rightfully so, for who would even want to sin being born of God? But then John follows on with: "This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are..." 1 John 3:10
Please know that you will never hear me state that I am perfect, far from it. ::)
However, John precludes this with the following:
1 John 3:4-6
4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5 But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.
WOW!!! No one who continues to sin has either seen him (I wasn't with John for sure) or known him. ???
But I do know him, or rather He has made himself known to me. John says, anyone who sins breaks the law, but was not the law fulfilled and as such made null and void?
Well let's look at what Paul says of this.....
Rom 6:1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?
Rom 6:2 By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?
Rom 6:3 Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
Rom 6:5 If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection.
Rom 6:6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin–
Rom 6:7 because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.
Rom 6:9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him.
Rom 6:10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
Rom 6:11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
Rom 6:12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires.
Rom 6:13 Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!
Rom 6:16 Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey–whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted.
Rom 6:18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
Rom 6:19 I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever‑increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness.
Rom 6:20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness.
Rom 6:21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death!
Rom 6:22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in[fn2] Christ Jesus our Lord.
I want to just focus on a couple of points that Paul made in this chapter:
Rom 6:2 By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?
Rom 6:5 If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection.
Rom 6:6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin–
Rom 6:7 because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.
What then is sin? Does not Paul state that "we" died to sin; that our "old" self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with. Verse 7, cannot be speaking of a "physical" death, because Paul goes on to say in verse 8: " Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him." Does this not tie in perfectly with what John was saying in 1 John 3:9: No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God."
Confused? I am. ::)
I ask my question again, what is sin? Are we not free of sin? (Rom 6:7) Can we not know that through the death and Resurrection of Christ, that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death. (1Jo 3:14) Is sin not a consequence of the law? Are we not now under grace? (Rom 6:14)
Who knows what God has planned for each one of us? Not even John himself knew.....
1Jo 3:2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
I will close this response with the following from John, with words that should speak clearly to us all.
1Jo 3:18-24
Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth. 19 This then is how we know that we belong to the truth, and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence 20 whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. 21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.
I too are willing to stand corrected with anything that I have stated here.
Love to all in Christ, our Redeemer.
Darren
Deborah-Leigh:
Hello Darren
Thank you for your contribution. It is precisely this kind of communication that spurs me to greater precision in my thinking and deeper desire to understand Jesus Christ and the Word of God.
Your post made me return to the fact that the Image of God is not yet complete in us. If we sin no more and are delivered out of delusion, seeing partially as in a glass mirror dimly as Peggy contributed in another thread of mine, then, Darren, how can we be born again while yet in this life. Okay I see the point you make about us having the deposit of the Holy Spirit of Christ that is working in some of us yet how can we be certain who is who except by the fruit and even then can we be sure because as it is written only God can see the heart.
Earlier on in the Forum it was noted that some can pretend to have the fruit of the Spirit and be White washed Sepulchers full of dead men's bones. Okay I added the last part but see what I mean. Many holier than thou pious murderers of the sight are preventing many from entering the Kingdom of God while they stand at the door and do not enter even themselves. See?
I believe I have to trim my thoughts down to the bone and ask what is the conclusion of my thinking. My search for edification and deeper insight surrounds this question. Do we get born again this side of life or not? Scriptures may allude to this being a reality yet if we take the allusion we end up deluded because then we can fall to the temptation of believing that when sin no longer has dominion over us, that means we are no longer sinners. That is wrong thinking as I see it.
So where Ray has presented point 4. in his teaching I believe this happens as the reward to those who are chosen and resurrected to life in Christ where certainly, the Scriptures will be proved not to lie and will be fulfilled as you have noted wherein the chosen will not sin anymore and those requiring correction in the LOF will no longer die anymore and will be perfected under chastisement and wrath.
How does that sound?
Rocky you presented this Scripture : Rom 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
I believe this is KEY to remind us that it is BY THE RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD that the declaration of Son of God is made not before death of the physical natural and carnal spiritual.
Thank you all for your participation. Please continue to share and contribute edification's and encouragements towards deeper recognition of the teachings we accept via Ray Smith and the understandings we have recieved of the Scriptures.
Let us reason together. Are the Scriptures presented by Darren literal for now or do they point to a future state of being wherein those chosen will experience sinlessness with Christ having shed and having destroyed once and for all, the carnal old man?
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
Grateful:
Hello, all !
As I was reading all of your replies in this "Finished?" topic of discussion, these thoughts kept revolving around in my mind. Tell me what you think, OK, please? Could the word "death" be a way of saying "death to the awareness of God's Presence" in your mind and heart? And when we actually DO God's Will all the time, by obeying His Precepts, we ARE "born again", and cannot sin (coveting, stealing, lying, backtalking, slandering, etc., etc.)? Could this be what Paul in Romans 6 was referring to??
Years ago, I read in some spiritual material somewhere that "house" means "awareness" , "consciousness (of)". Hence, when that Bible Scripture says, "In My Father's house are many mansions." and "As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord." , we're talking about the cognitive function of the mind.
Input, anyone?
Linda
Deborah-Leigh:
Hello Linda
May be it is "death" to the blindness and deafness of the Presence of God. Like "death" as being the amnesia or comatose absence of knowing of Gods being and Sovereignty. I often feel that carnality is like a amnesia to the mind body and soul awareness and knowledge of God.
We know that the carnal is at deep seated hate for God and will kill all perceptions of Him ie DEATH itself because God is LIFE. I am the way the truth and the LIFE. Carnality is death.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
Can we ever be rid of our carnality this side of life. I believe we have to cross over the resurrection line to know if we are free or subject to judgment to righteousness in the LOF.
To return to my first question about Isaiah. Was he left carnal and will he be in the LOF after having been forgiven and is this why Ray points out point 4 as being the REMOVAL of sin in the four point process? I think it is? Is there some edification or correction required to focus on this conclusion anyone?
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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