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Author Topic: Finished?  (Read 7243 times)

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Gregor

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Re: Finished?
« Reply #20 on: October 24, 2007, 02:27:59 AM »

Greetings,
Ray teaches that there are four things that happen with sin.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3709.0.html

So there are four things that happen with sin:

1.   Committed
2.   Remitted
3.   Repented
4.   Removed

I've recently been pondering "temptation" and how it fits into this process. It would seem to me that the temptation comes before the "committed" stage and if one can overcome the temptation, the act of committing would not come into play. But, some sins are not as obvious as others ie: coveting, but that is a condition of the heart, as is hatred, lusting, etc. So I've come to the conclusion that sin is committed in the heart prior to any action being taken. That is where the "committed" takes place, not in the manifestation of the sin through actions.
Romans 14:23
But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.
How does this fit in with the temptation of Jesus in Matt.4? (Keep in mind the following Matt. 3:17 And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”)
1 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. 2 And when He had fasted forty days and forty nights, afterward He was hungry. 3 Now when the tempter came to Him, he said, “If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread.”
4 But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’”
What is being tempted, the physical hunger or the faith in the word of God?
5 Then the devil took Him up into the holy city, set Him on the pinnacle of the temple, 6 and said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down. For it is written:
‘ He shall give His angels charge over you,’ and, ‘ In their hands they shall bear you up, Lest you dash your foot against a stone.’” Here again, same thing being tested, Jesus faith in what God told him. Only this time, satan must twist the scriptures as his weapon of choice.
7 Jesus said to him, “It is written again, ‘You shall not tempt the LORD your God.’”
8 Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9 And he said to Him, “All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me.” (Here we find satan's last attempt at attacking the faith, appealing to the "Pride of life" and lust for the things of this world. We know Jesus heart is for the will of God, not the things of this world and that Jesus stands firm again in the word of God.)
10 Then Jesus said to him, “Away with you, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve.’”
11 Then the devil left Him, and behold, angels came and ministered to Him.
Every time Jesus faith is attacked, He responds with statements of faith. Jesus knew how to rightly divide the word of truth. I pray that this will be my response. I hope that this will help shed some light on what happens prior to the "committing" stage of sin. Romans 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. All sin is a result of questioning (temptation or testing) the word of God and that all stems out of our hearts, not in the actions themselves. I hope this isn't preaching what I think, but that it is a revelation worth sharing.
G.
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Finished?
« Reply #21 on: October 24, 2007, 03:05:25 AM »

If we go back and review this thread I think Jer has put his finger on the pulse right in the start of the Thread. Just shows, a comment made is not unimportant even if at first it goes seemingly unnoticed. Jer  reminds us of the principle of  first the natural then the spiritual. If we understand His Word then we better understand and come to know HIM for He IS the Word that was made flesh and died and is resurrected right?

Quoting Ray:
Man is not a "spirit being" having a "physical" experience, but rather man is a "physical and mortal" being having a "spiritual" experience. We are first born mortal [physical], but in the resurrection God gives us immortality (the spiritual). Throw away this marvellous truth of Scripture, and you will be as deceived... http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm

I believe this answers your poignant question for which I thank you Rocky.

Yes Beloved…speed wobble, womb wobble…it is all one!   ;D  I am not yet born again! I do not know yet that when I am born again if I will come out as the umbilical cord or the baby. I hope the baby perfected image of Jesus Christ! it is one thing to bring nourishment of the Word and it is quite another thing to BE the Baby!....Womb wobble again? I will be thinking of you thinking of me when I see a pregnant woman again. In fact I will be thinking of THIS FORUM!

MG your contribution on this tread nails it for me. Thank you for reflecting the image of Christ and His Truth. Here is what you observed for our edification and encouragement to see! I believe a baby can see in the womb right Beloved? Okay I know I know its dark  ;D :D Here is what you presented

Here is comment from Ray in today's email reply. Quote:

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5691.0.html


COMMENT:  No, all will be saved regardless of what they "have DONE," not according to what they are "still DOING."  Sin must ultimately be repented of and taken out of the sinner through Judgment.

Unquote.

This says for me that the sin has to be TAKEN OUT OF THE SINNER. For me this is in the process of being born again resulting in one of two judgements either the one NOW on the House of Gods CHOSEN or later at the White Throne. Jesus said better the one NOW not later. That makes sense for it is better to be called and obey than called and disobey. Better the few chosen than the many called.


So for me Darren until we receive a clean heart of the Lord in full, we are still in the process of womb growth into His Image.

Gregor thank you for pulling back another layer to expose some more truth.  As Jesus said the even to THINK wrong is to DO wrong. So that which THINKS carnal will be removed and this is the Will of God for us all.
 Jesus did not sin. He was sinless. He did not have ONE sinful thought. NOT ONE>…Makes me think again…..Makes you think doesn’t it?

Peace to womb dwellers

Arcturus.  :)
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Grateful

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Re: Finished?
« Reply #22 on: October 24, 2007, 03:28:04 AM »

Hello all,

Methinks if our inner Hunger is so great that we tell God intensely earnestly, "God, I want to be GOOD!! " , that starts the ball really rolling for us, spiritually.  He HEARS!!   :)   :D   And our perfection (by Him) comes near faster!!   ( "Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for righteousness [ = justice, according to Rotherham's Emphasized Bible ] , for they SHALL be FILLED." )

With much love!   :D

Linda
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DuluthGA

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Re: Finished?
« Reply #23 on: October 24, 2007, 03:29:15 AM »

I like the way both Arcturus and Beloved put forth what Beloved called "the rebirth progression." ;)  And I liked Arcturus' statement which indicates this process.

Quote
I see this as being that the sin is not removed unless the Spirit is conceived and born again through stage 1,2 and 3 and finally upon resurrection at point 4. for those so chosen.

Although it would seem with the help of the great detective work of MG with the Ray quote edifiying, at least for me, that "part 4/sin removal" is occurring as a process now in our judgment in the here and now.... OUCH! :D ;D  To be completed upon resurrection.

And thanks Beloved as I hadn't realized the Scriptures know nothing of being "born again."  Three verses come up in the KJV when searching this particular word set and they are translated in the CLNT as:

Jhn 3: 3   Jesus answered and said to him, "Verily, verily, I am saying to you, If anyone should not be begotten anew, he can not perceive the kingdom of God."

Jhn 3: 7   You should not be marveling that I said to you, 'You must be begotten anew.'

1Pet 1: 23    having been regenerated, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, through the word of God, living and permanent,

It's a technicality but worth noting for more accurate communication on the subject.

:)



« Last Edit: October 24, 2007, 04:05:23 AM by DuluthGA »
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dessa

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Re: Finished?
« Reply #24 on: October 24, 2007, 04:21:01 PM »

Darren,
My answer to your question:
My question to anyone reading this, is: Do you consider yourself the same person still, after having your eyes, ears and hearts opened by the Spirit.

I am not the same person as before.

And to this question:
Let me add also, that I believe (at least) I am still yet a babe in the truth, and have much learning and growing before any would call me mature. But praise be to God for all that he has given me.

There is a vast difference in my understanding of scripture now and what I first understood.  Don't know what growth category that puts me in.  I am not a babe, however.  The BT web site would not have interested me when I was a babe in Christ.

Has the Holy Spirit led anyone to desire knowledge about how to talk to children about the truths we now know?  My leading is to ask the question only.
Shalom,
dessa




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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Finished?
« Reply #25 on: October 24, 2007, 04:38:05 PM »

Interesting question Dessa.

Dessa 
Quote
Has the Holy Spirit led anyone to desire knowledge about how to talk to children about the truths we now know?


Alex, and I hope he is not in the Southern California fires....wrote a very insightful reminder about not having to defend the Truth with the sword by cutting of anyone's ears.

I believe we have to become His Word and Image in our daily interactions with the Word, We are called to obey and how this impacts on us is via self judgment. Through discernment of our own inner weaknesses failures and liabilities by contrast with Christs selfless strength, success and holiness, we might then be used to influence others in what we know through experience. It is however the Spirit of Christ that selects or does the choosing to touch and influence those around us or those who simply may only once cross our paths in life. 

II am not talking AT you but simply sharing what I believe you already know.  :)

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
« Last Edit: October 24, 2007, 04:48:01 PM by Arcturus »
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Chris R

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Re: Finished?
« Reply #26 on: October 24, 2007, 05:07:08 PM »

Hello Dessa,

Yes as a matter of fact, My own children , As should we all teach these truths, to our children.

If anyone asks, i would tell of these truths, if it comes up in conversation then yes...But i am no teacher, and have no platform other than what is provided to me.

Peace

Chris R
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jER

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Re: Finished?
« Reply #27 on: October 25, 2007, 12:11:49 AM »

Which is it for the Elect? Which, for the rest of humanity?

Physical birth > Spiritual Death > Physical death > Spiritual birth

Physical birth > Physical Death > Spiritual (second death) > Spiritual birth

First, the Physical, then the Spiritual?


"You must die before you are born in the Spirit" in either sequence. And, when we die to self "we are not the same person."

All in due time and order!

- jER
« Last Edit: October 25, 2007, 12:13:50 AM by jER »
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DuluthGA

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Re: Finished?
« Reply #28 on: October 25, 2007, 01:42:37 AM »

Just to follow up on my post from last night, here's Ray from LOF 16-D-4 Gehenna Fire Judgement:

REBIRTH/BORN AGAIN: "...that which is conceived [Gk: gennao] in her is of the Holy Spirit... Now when Jesus was born [Gk: gennao] in Bethlehem..." (Matt. 1:20 & 2:1). Notice that words "conceived" and "born" are both translated from the same one Greek word gennao. So what are we to do with this verse: "Except a man be born [Gk: gennao] again he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3). Should this verse read: "born again," or "begotten anew?" I once believed this verse should be "begotten" rather than "born," seeing that no one is literally "born" again in this life, but I now believe that context forbids this translation. But how can Believers be literally born again in this life based on the context of Jesus' statement:

"That which is born of the flesh [that's all of us] IS FLESH [that too is all of us] and that which is born of the Spirit [are we now born of the Spirit? NO, and here's why...] ...that which is born of the Spirit IS SPIRIT" (John 3:6). Is anyone human flesh and at the same time SPIRIT? No, I think not. Jesus adds more proof of what it is like to be "born of the Spirit" - "The wind [Gk: pneuma-'spirit'] blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound thereof, but can not tell whence it comes, or whether it goes: so is everyone that is BORN of the Spirit" (Verse 8 ). Right there are three reasons why no one except Jesus has been born of the Spirit: [1] We are not composed of spirit, [2] We are not powerful like the wind, [3] Neither are we invisible like the wind.

And so, we as Believers as "conceived" by the Spirit of God and have the "earnest" of His Spirit (Eph. 1:14), but we will not be born again (or anew) until we are resurrected with "incorruptible, glorified, powerful, SPIRITUAL bodies" - like the WIND (I Cor. 15:42-44).


http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D4.htm:

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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Finished?
« Reply #29 on: October 25, 2007, 02:39:56 AM »

A valuable contribution Janice. Thank you!

Jer I believe that conception too is a process and not an eleven second sinners prayer. So if we ARE concieved by the Spirit then we will be raised into life with Christ. If we reject, refuse, grieve and resist the Holy Spirit then we will be resurrected to judgment.

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
« Last Edit: October 25, 2007, 02:44:00 AM by Arcturus »
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Chris R

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Re: Finished?
« Reply #30 on: October 25, 2007, 01:59:18 AM »

Hi,

Has Gods plan flown out the window because of our ability to resist him? And now that i have successfully resisted Gods plan for me, does God now go on to plan B? I think not,  EVERYTHING we are, and all we do, is of God.
 
We cannot even REPENT if God has not given us a desire to do so. WHY?
Because He hath mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will, he hardeneth.  Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?  Rom 9:18-19 

Tough love....

Peace

Chris R
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Finished?
« Reply #31 on: October 25, 2007, 08:53:53 AM »

Thank you for your post Chris R. It gives comfort to again be edified to know that God is Sovereign.
From LOF quoting Ray :

First it is most important that we look at and understand the word translated "will" in Rom. 9:19. It is not the usually Greek word, which is translated "will" hundreds of times in the New Testament. This Greek word boulema is used but twice in the Bible, here in Rom. 9:19 and in Acts 27:43 where it is translated "purpose."

So the question that Paul is setting up is not "…who has resisted His will?" but rather, "who has resisted His purpose [His plan, His intention]?"

To the question, "…who has resisted His will?" the answer is: EVERYONE! But when properly translated, to the question, "who has resisted His purpose?" the answer is: ABSOLUTELY NO ONE!


http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html

Does anyone have ability to resist God? NO! I do not believe that our resistance comes out of ABILITY but out of WEAKNESS and our CARNALITY and I believe we resist Him from a unconverted heart and it is as automatic to do so like a sinning machine.

From LOF part 2 Quote: 


"For the creature [and/or creation itself] was MADE subject to VANITY NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of Him [that’s God] Who HATH SUBJECTED the same in hope. Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the WHOLE CREATION groans and travails IN PAIN until NOW" (Rom. 8:20-22)!

^
^
^

"For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies" (Mat. 15:19). http://bible-truths.com/lake2.html

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
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Gregor

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Re: Finished?
« Reply #32 on: October 25, 2007, 09:19:39 AM »

Greetings,
In light of what's just been posted, could someone shed light on these two verses?

Heb.6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

Heb.10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

Strongs: willfully 1596 hekousiōs, 1) voluntarily, willingly, of one's own accord
a) to sin wilfully as opposed to sins committed inconsiderately, and from ignorance or from weakness
« Last Edit: October 25, 2007, 09:31:05 AM by Gregor »
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Finished?
« Reply #33 on: October 25, 2007, 09:39:47 AM »

Hello G.

"..if they fall away..."   That is key. If we fall away or remain faithfull is in God's plan. Some may come to the Babylonian System, hear the word of God, get it and then decide that the fellowship and camaraderie of the social system is worth more than taking up the cross to follow Christ OUT OF HER! Just a thought...There after is the second death LOF.

..."if we sin WILLFULLY..." For me that points to the willfully rebellious nature of the carnal man who is at deep seated enmity and hate for God. That sounds pretty willful to me! :)

This calls to mind the parable of the seed sown on the wayside, shallow or thorny ground.

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
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skydreamers

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Re: Finished?
« Reply #34 on: October 25, 2007, 12:00:17 PM »

Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, and of instruction about washings, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. And this we will do if God permits. For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then fall away, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.
Hebrews 6:1-8


Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ....I see something in this that speaks to those who are not "growing up" in Christ.  They have "tasted the heavenly gift"  including universalism which I believe is represented in "eternal judgment" (judgment in an age when all will learn righteousness Isa 26:9).  There is so much more to growing and being pruned in this age than just knowing that God is going to save everybody.  I am learning myself about the unfathomable depths and layers that seemingly is overwhelming.  But if we simply stay where we are at and do not keep going in truth, than we are resting in comfortable carnality and not taking up our spiritual cross.  The truth is not easy, though it brings freedom.

I think it may be that this verse is saying that "it is impossible to restore them again to repentance" in this age.    Repentance means to change your ways and mind.  If you have fallen away, you have stopped changing your ways and mind and your destiny is to continue this process later in the lake of fire.  In other words, God has seen fit that your purpose to grow later, serves something greater in the grand scheme.  It must, otherwise why would God "cause" such" a condition in someone.

If we, through Christ, produce crops that (notice) are "useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated", than those works are blessed.  The Elect bringing the rest of the world to salvation.  The Elect's crop is for the rest of humanity, just as The Elect is the crop/planting for and of the Lord.  Producing a good crop is not for yourself but for the benefit of others. 

The thorns and thistles are works by the called but not chosen, fit for destruction.  (Eg.  How to Gain Financial Freedom in the Lord in Seven Steps, How to Prosper and Receive Physical Blessings in this Life...yada yada yada)  People who focus on teaching these kinds of things have no idea that they are "crucifying once again the Son of God", so why on earth would they even think to repent??  Yet these are the very people who think they are God's chosen.

I do not think that having the truth about the elementary (basic) doctrines of Christ:

1.  repentance from dead works
2. faith
3. instructions on washings (cleaning the inside of the cup)
4. laying on of hands (receiving the holy spirit)
5. resurrection of the dead (putting on immortality)
6. eternal judgment (all the world learning righteousness)

is any kind of assurance that you are of the Chosen and will "endure to the end". 

You have not yet struggled and fought agonizingly against sin, nor have you yet resisted and withstood to the point of pouring out your [own] blood.
Hebrews 12:4
 
I think this is another warning to those who think they are the "Elect" like many Christians do, especially those who have "come out" of the Church who have been given grand truths:

Therefore let anyone who thinks he stands, who feels sure that he has a steadfast mind and is standing firm, take heed lest he fall into sin.
1 Corinthians 10:12

If we, as a Christian, feel secure in thinking that we are Chosen, we are in a dangerous condition to become complacent and arrogant...Didn't the Pharisees think they were the Chosen Seed?  I'm not saying we can't be confident in reaching for the prize, but really it's a fine line, which is why our salvation is worked out with fear and trembling.

So I see the many called as being stagnant or at the very least still on milk, focusing still on carnal needs, and the few chosen (Elect) are ever growing and being disciplined in the Lord. 

If the many called are stagnant, it is because the Lord is not dealing with them in this age.  He is not yet bringing them through their spiritual purposeful suffering required for perfection.  They are still back there with the masses, crucifying the Lord "to their own harm"....(their own harm will be the second death which does NOT harm the Elect who produce the right crop....)

Anyways, that's how I'm seeing it.


By the way, wonderful, beautiful thread everyone! 

Peace,
Diana
« Last Edit: October 25, 2007, 12:20:37 PM by skydreamers »
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Finished?
« Reply #35 on: October 25, 2007, 07:16:37 PM »

Hello Diana

Thank you for the contribution and participation to the spirit of this thread. Here is what stood out for me from your post. Quote  " ......think it may be that this verse is saying that "it is impossible to restore them again to repentance" in this age.    Repentance means to change your ways and mind.  If you have fallen away, you have stopped changing your ways and mind and your destiny is to continue this process later in the lake of fire.  In other words, God has seen fit that your purpose to grow later, serves something greater in the grand scheme.  It must, otherwise why would God "cause" such" a condition in someone.
^
^
... the many called are stagnant, it is because the Lord is not dealing with them in this age.  He is not yet bringing them through their spiritual purposeful suffering required for perfection.  They are still back there with the masses, crucifying the Lord "to their own harm"....(their own harm will be the second death which does NOT harm the Elect who produce the right crop....)


I believe the reason why we must COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE. Do NOT take part in her sins, or you will be punished with her. Rev 18 : 4 fits perfectly with what you have articulated Diana. Thank you.

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
« Last Edit: October 25, 2007, 07:24:31 PM by Arcturus »
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skydreamers

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Re: Finished?
« Reply #36 on: October 25, 2007, 09:40:29 PM »

Hi Arcturus,

I was just reading Genesis and came across something that reminded of the post I wrote earlier...it is these verses that jumped out at me:

And to Adam He said, Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree, of which I commanded you, saying, You shall not eat of it! The ground is cursed for your sake. In pain shall you eat of it all the days of your life. It shall also bring forth thorns and thistles to you, and you shall eat the herb of the field.
Gen 3:17-18

Now read again the passage in Hebrews:

For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.
Heb 6:7-8

Remember the teaching from Ray that the earth represents "the called" in that they are slightly raised out of the "sea of humanity" but have not yet reached heaven.  Even the highest peak on this planet (Mount Everest?) cannot be said to reach into the heavens.  This is a parable of the church condition...those who call themselves God's people.  The many called, but not the few chosen.

The word "land" in Hebrews is translated by the KJV as earth and in fact carries the meaning of soil, ground, land, earth.

The word "ground" in Genesis is the Hebrew word "adamah" also meaning soil, earth, ground, land.

Notice in Genesis it is the adamah/earth that God curses and not adam/mankind.

The earth was cursed from the beginning in that it would only ever produce "thorns and thistles" fit to be burned.  Now whether one sees this as Babylon, the church system, or the carnal nature...it all fits in harmony because it all comes from the same source.

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a rushing noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat. And the earth and the works in it will be burned up.
2Pe 3:10

This further substantiates the need to "come out of her my people" as you've pointed out  Arcturus.  Come out of carnality! 

It does seem to me that the "earth" could also point to  the carnal nature/flesh of dust body that will need to be destroyed before we can put on the spiritual body.  Again, the "adamah"....the soil, the dust, the flesh is cursed...but not "adam" the man himself.  The works of the flesh are thorns and thistles and shall be burned up though the man himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

Whatever Babylon is, the "earth" and its thorns and thistles are surely part of it.  whatever the flesh produces results in deceit, lies etc etc etc whether in religion or the world.  Carnality has got to go!

 Let us pray that God will call us out completely that we should not partake of her plagues.  Let us continue to strive forward, reaching  for that high calling, past the mountain peaks to the very realm of the kingdom of heaven.  This is my prayer for my family of brothers and sisters here at the forum, and elsewhere scattered throughout the world.

Yet even so, our minds, our "heavens" are also destined to be cleansed with fire and I pray that we should welcome it and not resist the coming of the Lord.

Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. Therefore, beloved, since you are waiting for these, be diligent to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace. And count the patience of our Lord as salvation...
2Pe 3:11-15
 
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood, and without shedding of blood is no remission. Therefore it was necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves (that's us, our inner hearts/minds) were purified with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:22-23

In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.
Heb 12:4

So back to your question in your first post Arcturus:

Are there some things that happen with forgiveness?

no blood = no remission

G859 remission:  (release from bondage or imprisonment, forgiveness or pardon, of sins (letting them go as if they had never been committed)

Jesus is the way.  He has set the pattern: without shedding of blood there is no remission.  It seems somehow, we must spiritually shed our own blood before the heavens of our minds are cleansed of all impurities and all sin is removed....burned and melted away to make way for the new heavens (cleansed minds) and new earth (new vessel, incorruptible spiritual bodies).

Peace,
Diana



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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Finished?
« Reply #37 on: October 26, 2007, 09:01:47 AM »

Hello Diana

It is I believe the spirit of the Forum wherein sometimes some threads resonate and mirror others. In this instance your latest post for me, reflects what is in the "Our Father" thread in the Testimony section of the Forum. You might see what I mean if you take a look.

Regarding what you observe quote :

Heb 9:22-23 In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.

Do you think it is a prerequisite that we shed our blood in order to have remission? Is it our blood or the already shed blood of the offering for our sin, our bad blood, evil ways and carnality, that is the offering for our sin. Do you think we have to shed our blood not in a literal way but in the symbolic way of shedding our genetic lineage with the first Adam and being through the Second Adam Jesus Christ, made one with HIM? I think so. This is surely what judgment is all about. Our death to self. HIS blood has been shed for us. We now have to shed our bad blood too in repentance and conformation to His Image. Of course non of this can be achieved by man but with God. For with God all things are possible.

This carnality tail goes way back into allegiance with error, traditions and sins to deception. Only by His Spirit can we be free.

Peace to you

Arcturus :)

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jER

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Re: Finished?
« Reply #38 on: October 27, 2007, 08:48:50 PM »

Diana and Arcturus,

Truly the corruptible must give way to the incorruptible; a new creation.

"Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed (rendered inoperative), that henceforth, we should not serve (be slaves of) SIN."

"Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."

A friend in Christ

- jER
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skydreamers

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Re: Finished?
« Reply #39 on: October 29, 2007, 05:30:59 PM »

Hi Arcturus,

Quote
In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.

Do you think it is a prerequisite that we shed our blood in order to have remission? Is it our blood or the already shed blood of the offering for our sin, our bad blood, evil ways and carnality, that is the offering for our sin. Do you think we have to shed our blood not in a literal way but in the symbolic way of shedding our genetic lineage with the first Adam and being through the Second Adam Jesus Christ, made one with HIM? I think so. This is surely what judgment is all about. Our death to self. HIS blood has been shed for us. We now have to shed our bad blood too in repentance and conformation to His Image. Of course non of this can be achieved by man but with God. For with God all things are possible.

Yes, I agree with you.  The shedding of blood is a type of something spiritual that needs to happen in us.  I do think that Jesus living His life through the Elect means that everything He went through the Elect also must go through.  As He was made perfect through suffering, so will the Elect, and eventually all mankind be made perfect through suffering.  The Elect are hated and persecuted by men.  They are crucified with Christ that they may be raised with him.  As He is, so are the Elect in the world.

And almost all things are by the law purged with blood, and without shedding of blood is no remission. Therefore it was necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens  should be purified with these, but the heavenly things  themselves  were purified with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:22-23

Notice that this is all in the plural form...the patterns in the heavens but the heavenly things purified with better sacrifices.....


Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me (the Elect) will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father.
John 14:12

Peace to you,
Diana
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