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Faith without works is Dead
Gregor:
Greetings,
I know Ray teaches that we should come out of the church system of modern christiandom. I tend to feel that this doesn't mean literally stop going to churches based on differences in doctrine, but rather that I can spiritually "come out" of those false teachings. I tend to think that if a church preaches Christ crucifed and resurrected as basis for salvation, and if I'm strong enough in faith/understanding not to be deceived by those differences, that we can still be mutually edifying. Paul touches on this in 2 Tim. and Corinthians.
2ti 2:16 But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness.
2ti 2:17 And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort,
2ti 2:18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some.
I believe it is clear from this passage that Paul's view of Hymenaeus and Philetus are that they are not of the faith of Christ. Since they overthrow the faith of some, their faith must also be null. Paul is very harsh on these men. They were indead spreading ungodliness by their message. Saying that the resurrection of past was the main issue of Pauls harshness.
When we come to some Corinthian believers who said there is no resurrection of the dead, it is a completely different story with Paul.
1co 15:11 Therefore, whether it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.
1co 15:12 Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
Paul is clear that he is speaking to fellow believers, believers who claimed that there was no resurrection of the dead. He makes this clear in other verses also:
1co 15:14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty.
1co 15:17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!
The main issue is not Christ's resurrection, but their denial of the resurrection. Paul uses Christ not rising as a logical result of the denial of the resurrection of the dead. He then logically deduces that if Christ has not risen, then their faith is empty. But they did not deny Christ’s resurrection nor the salvation of those Christians who have already died. If they did, then their faith would be empty.
1co 15:58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labor is not in vain in the Lord.
Who is Paul calling “my beloved brethren”? They would, of course, include those who denied the resurrection of the dead. This is a phrase of great love and affection. It shows that they were still of the faith, despite their false beliefs.
It seems to me that differences in doctrine are not always reason enought to completely disown other believers. In fact, I would think this might just bring judgement on me. Is it wrong to agree to disagree on the differences in interpretation so long as they don't take away from Christ's redemptive act of salvation? It seems with Christianity that there are differences in doctrine as extreme as the east is from the west - from preterism, presentism, futurism, universalism, calvanism, armenianism, etc. etc. "isms." I ask all this because recently my family has fallen on extremely hard times financially and if not for the generosity of our church, we would be literally starving. We were blessed (I see it as a blessing from God) with $500 worth of grocery vouchers from this church. I don't know if anyone here, or even Ray for that matter, would be willing to help us in this practical "work" of love. Does this forum support one another in a practical manner, other than with words? If I "come out" of Babylon, as Ray teaches, where does that leave me in a practical, everyday sense of the word? How are we here at BT truly showing our faith by our works? I don't ask this in a condemning manner, but in sincerity of heart. If we are to "come out" of Babylon, how are we taking care of one another practically? In all truth, I would be left alone here with my family and no support. God provided, perhaps he just used the devil to foot the bill?? I say that rather loosely, as I don't view differences in doctrine equating to complete heresy. The heart of the people (church) was/is loving enought to reach out to me and my family in a real, practical way in our time of need. For that I'm grateful to God. Is there anything like this here at the BT forum, a fund to help eachother in time of need?
G.
Matt:
Gregor,
I love your candor and honesty here. I prayed today about how I or others would be received here if we opened up like you just did!
My wife and I attend/support medical and dental missions to Cambodia and the Philippines every year with a group of churches based here in Japan. I used to get frustrated being around so many people that love Christ and yet do not understand Him. I have learned to not condemn them in my thoughts and just pray for them. I try to remember the below scripture:
Philippians 1:15-18a
“15) It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. 16) The latter do so in love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. 17) The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. 18) But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice.”
I totally understand what you are saying here. I am on duty all night, but when I have more time, I will respond more.
Matt :)
Chris R:
Hello Gregor,
Yes there have been times when the forum members have helped one another, But i doubt any of them would stand up and take a bow for such a deed. .
Yes it is true the church does many wonderful works, And that they preach Christ and him crucified, And their are acts of kindness in all churches.
Even so, there is a problem,
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
The MANY are never the FEW, "many" always takes on the larger portion of a group. While it is true that this verse speaks to the church, it speaks to those who do good deeds in the church, and it speaks to the largest portion The Many.
Then what happens?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. WHAT?....
WHY? ..why Does Christ profess to them, I don't Know you? These folks have done many wonderful things, and they have done them IN HIS NAME
There's that word again..MANY.... many wonderful works, whats this mean?..a majority of someone or something...MANY wonderful works! It means that MOST of what they have done...have been WONDERFUL WORKS...
Then WHY does Christ profess unto them...I DONT KNOW YOU?..And then He says...Depart from me?....basically...get away from me...you workers of iniquity....WHAT?
Workers of INIQUITY?...but i thought a MAJORITY of what they did was WONDERFUL?
Now I ask you...Who's works where they doing?...Obviously Not the works of Christ.
A thought to Ponder
Peace
Chris R
Craig:
--- Quote ---We were blessed (I see it as a blessing from God) with $500 worth of grocery vouchers from this church. I don't know if anyone here, or even Ray for that matter, would be willing to help us in this practical "work" of love. Does this forum support one another in a practical manner, other than with words?
If you believe in what Ray teaches be sure to let your church know and see if you are helped in the future. Yes the forum has helped others in the past but because of the nature of an internet forum it is difficult. The forum is not a church (thank God)
If I "come out" of Babylon, as Ray teaches, where does that leave me in a practical, everyday sense of the word?
That leaves you trusting in God 100%. Ray or nobody here suggests (nor should suggest) you leave your church, that is between you and God, but I guarantee if you start following the true word of God and He starts calling you out of the church, you won't want to go back.
How are we here at BT truly showing our faith by our works? I don't ask this in a condemning manner, but in sincerity of heart. If we are to "come out" of Babylon, how are we taking care of one another practically?
I know you say this in not in a condemning manner but sincerely, what do you mean? When you live in faith and complete trust, God will show you what you need to be doing. If you are in tune with that small still voice of His spirit and He wants you to help a neighbor or stranger financially then you will, the true fruits of Christ in you will by it's nature lead to real fruit in your life, not the false works of man. Do you think that the works of God is only to support financially? Didn't Christ say "The poor you will always have with you, but you will not always have me." I guess what I'm trying to say is seek the kingdom of God first and you will be doing what He wants you to do. To suggest that members of the forum are not helping their neighbor, leaves me speechless, should we start another forum section titled "What I'm doing to prove I have good works" Then we can talk about who does more and pat each other on the back.
In all truth, I would be left alone here with my family and no support.
No, you would be left with your family and trusting God and Christ. In my opinion what more do I need?
God provided, perhaps he just used the devil to foot the bill?? I say that rather loosely, as I don't view differences in doctrine equating to complete heresy. The heart of the people (church) was/is loving enought to reach out to me and my family in a real, practical way in our time of need. For that I'm grateful to God. Is there anything like this here at the BT forum, a fund to help eachother in time of need?
G.
Again follow God with all your heart and you can be sure you are doing His will. You are where you need to be at this time and that is fine. If you continue your journey don't be surprised if you are called out of the church. I have been were you are so I speak from experience. And I also believe God is calling you out now Gregor or you would not have brought up the subject, you feel the pull and you are naturally struggling and fearful, (again, I've been there and bought the shirt :)) Blessings to you in your journey.
Craig
--- End quote ---
Craig:
--- Quote from: Matthew on October 25, 2007, 09:22:40 PM ---Philippians 1:15-18a
“15) It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. 16) The latter do so in love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. 17) The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. 18) But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice.”
Matt :)
--- End quote ---
Matt, I like this verse also, but I question one thing in my mind. Paul is saying that some people are preaching Christ because of selfish ambition but they are at least preaching the truth of Christ. I wonder if Paul would say the same now when the truth is not being preached?
Don't misunderstand, I would not trade my time in the church for anything because it was a part of leading me to the truth. But now it is dead to me. Nothing highlights something better than to have it contrasted with the opposite.
Craig
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